Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

Is there a clue how many parts the Batgirls story will have in the "Future State: The Next Batman" anthology?

I've read that the main story is "one of five tales serialized in the anthology book "Future State: The Next Batman."

The five stories announced in #1 and #2 are:

#1: The Next Batman, Outsiders, Arkham Knights
#2: The Next Batman, Batgirls, Gotham City Sirens

So, can we speculate, or is it known, that Outsiders part 2 and Arkham Knights part 2 will be in February's issue #3, and that Batgirls part 2 and Gotham City Sirens part 2 will be in February's issue #4? Or, is there actually going to be a different slate of "back-up" stories? (Which would mean these aren't actually "serialized" backups.) There's no hint in the solicitations that these are part 1 of the backup stories, but so many articles and interviews have appeared that I have lost track.

(For that matter, I don't know if it's fair to call them "backups" per se - they may have just as many pages in each issue as the main story.)

Jess Chen, the editor for this story, tweeted that it's going to be in parts 2 and 4 of the 4 part miniseries anthology.

I'm pretty sure they're going to be about 10-15 page backups, though given the 64 page count in solicits, it could very well be three 20 page stories. I think that's unlikely, though.

[ohfellow]

Jess Chen, the editor for this story, tweeted that it's going to be in parts 2 and 4 of the 4 part miniseries anthology.

I'm pretty sure they're going to be about 10-15 page backups, though given the 64 page count in solicits, it could very well be three 20 page stories. I think that's unlikely, though.

Oh good, thanks for that info.

DC's recent history of page count manipulation is a whole other, and even somewhat infuriating, topic. Suffice to say, though, that DC's current 32-page periodicals contain either 22 or 20 story pages. (As I say, lonnnnng story how they got here, but to this day many books are stuck at 20. Bendis was the first to get 22, and even got 23 and 24 a few times, but not lately.)

So, in theory a 64-page book could have a 22-page story and two 11-page backups (yeah, a weird number), but I predict a 20-page main story, a 12-page backup, and an 8-page backup, for 40 total pages of content. As much content as two 20-page stories in two 32-page books.

[millernumber1]

Oh good, thanks for that info.

DC's recent history of page count manipulation is a whole other, and even somewhat infuriating, topic. Suffice to say, though, that DC's current 32-page periodicals contain either 22 or 20 story pages. (As I say, lonnnnng story how they got here, but to this day many books are stuck at 20. Bendis was the first to get 22, and even got 23 and 24 a few times, but not lately.)

So, in theory a 64-page book could have a 22-page story and two 11-page backups (yeah, a weird number), but I predict a 20-page main story, a 12-page backup, and an 8-page backup, for 40 total pages of content. As much content as two 20-page stories in two 32-page books.

Oh, I'm very aware of the 22 to 20 page issue - when they launched their "Holding the Line at 2.99" initiative just before Steph's Batgirl line was cancelled, it was accompanied by a drop from 22 to 20 story pages (though sometime with letter pages returning). The n52 played nasty games with the Batman title, increasing the price of the issues during big events, though Snyder tried to hold it back a bit. Then Rebirth hit, and they decided their new initiative was double shipping 20 page issues twice a month at 2.99...until they decided to just jump the price up to 3.99 for the double ships when those became "the big three plus Flash" only. Then they dropped the paper quality from glossy to matte (though a thicker paper quality, so it's not as flimsy as newsprint was), and most of the books went back up to 22 pages (though that's still a much worse price per page than 2.99 for 20 pages - the dollar for two more pages does NOT make it better...and don't get me started on Batman/Catwoman, which I'm very excited about, but is going to be 5 dollars for 22 pages). However, if you look at the page count for Batman, it's STILL only 20 pages. Trying to squeeze maximum profit from their top selling book by shorting us two pages really pisses me off.

That being said. I still buy Batman. And things like Batman 100 and Batman: The Joker War Zone being oversized make me feel a lot better about it. The price per page on these is much better, even at a high price point. So more like that, DC! I'm pretty excited for these big anthology titles in Future State, and will be very curious to see if that's the way of the future. I kind of hope it is, since that's something I pitched about a year or two ago.

And Steph being in a backup for the main Batman title is pretty exciting - way, way more eyeballs going to be on that title than if she were just in "Future State: Batgirls" as a solo two issue miniseries.

[Tsukiakari1203]

Oh, I'm very aware of the 22 to 20 page issue - when they launched their "Holding the Line at 2.99" initiative just before Steph's Batgirl line was cancelled, it was accompanied by a drop from 22 to 20 story pages (though sometime with letter pages returning). The n52 played nasty games with the Batman title, increasing the price of the issues during big events, though Snyder tried to hold it back a bit. Then Rebirth hit, and they decided their new initiative was double shipping 20 page issues twice a month at 2.99...until they decided to just jump the price up to 3.99 for the double ships when those became "the big three plus Flash" only. Then they dropped the paper quality from glossy to matte (though a thicker paper quality, so it's not as flimsy as newsprint was), and most of the books went back up to 22 pages (though that's still a much worse price per page than 2.99 for 20 pages - the dollar for two more pages does NOT make it better...and don't get me started on Batman/Catwoman, which I'm very excited about, but is going to be 5 dollars for 22 pages). However, if you look at the page count for Batman, it's STILL only 20 pages. Trying to squeeze maximum profit from their top selling book by shorting us two pages really pisses me off.

That being said. I still buy Batman. And things like Batman 100 and Batman: The Joker War Zone being oversized make me feel a lot better about it. The price per page on these is much better, even at a high price point. So more like that, DC! I'm pretty excited for these big anthology titles in Future State, and will be very curious to see if that's the way of the future. I kind of hope it is, since that's something I pitched about a year or two ago.

And Steph being in a backup for the main Batman title is pretty exciting - way, way more eyeballs going to be on that title than if she were just in "Future State: Batgirls" as a solo two issue miniseries.

I agree with this. Future State has titles I'm interested in. Currently I plan on picking up the Wonder Woman books plus The Next Batman, Green Lanterns and Robin Eternal

[Digifiend]

Jess Chen, the editor for this story, tweeted that it's going to be in parts 2 and 4 of the 4 part miniseries anthology.

I'm pretty sure they're going to be about 10-15 page backups, though given the 64 page count in solicits, it could very well be three 20 page stories. I think that's unlikely, though.

It's not unlikely at all, considering most of the Future State books were probably originally meant to be the ongoing series. If that's the case, you would expect everything to be roughly 20 pages, including the "backups".

[millernumber1]

It's not unlikely at all, considering most of the Future State books were probably originally meant to be the ongoing series. If that's the case, you would expect everything to be roughly 20 pages, including the "backups".

Hum. We shall see! See indeed! I'm also really curious to see if the anthology approach is something DC wants to do more going forward. Which I actually am very curious about myself.

[ohfellow]

Thoughts on "Convergence: Batgirl #2 of 2, "The Love Song of Stephanie Brown":

At least Steph came up with a solution that worked. Too bad Kwitney thought Steph has to be down on herself, so had her thinking others would have handled it better. Perhaps she thought that was obligatory in a story about Stephanie. But there WERE others there - and they failed. Steph succeeded.

I'm ok with all the romantic cuddling at the end, but I wish the final narration box just wasn't there. The one that says "If it all has to end, part of me wishes it could end right here." That makes me think "Oh! This story was never meant for me; it was written for 12 year old girls!"

It can even read like a sappy extension to the final sentiment in the series: "It's only over if you want it to be." Apparently Steph goes on to think "But if it IS over, in Tim's arms is how I want it to end." Oh God, I think I just ruined the end of #24! Best to agree that this is some other Steph, not ours.

[ohfellow]

Oh, I'm very aware of the 22 to 20 page issue - when they launched their "Holding the Line at 2.99" initiative just before Steph's Batgirl line was cancelled, it was accompanied by a drop from 22 to 20 story pages (though sometime with letter pages returning). The n52 played nasty games with the Batman title, increasing the price of the issues during big events, though Snyder tried to hold it back a bit. Then Rebirth hit, and they decided their new initiative was double shipping 20 page issues twice a month at 2.99...until they decided to just jump the price up to 3.99 for the double ships when those became "the big three plus Flash" only. Then they dropped the paper quality from glossy to matte (though a thicker paper quality, so it's not as flimsy as newsprint was), and most of the books went back up to 22 pages (though that's still a much worse price per page than 2.99 for 20 pages - the dollar for two more pages does NOT make it better...and don't get me started on Batman/Catwoman, which I'm very excited about, but is going to be 5 dollars for 22 pages). However, if you look at the page count for Batman, it's STILL only 20 pages. Trying to squeeze maximum profit from their top selling book by shorting us two pages really pisses me off.

That being said. I still buy Batman. And things like Batman 100 and Batman: The Joker War Zone being oversized make me feel a lot better about it. The price per page on these is much better, even at a high price point. So more like that, DC! I'm pretty excited for these big anthology titles in Future State, and will be very curious to see if that's the way of the future. I kind of hope it is, since that's something I pitched about a year or two ago.

And Steph being in a backup for the main Batman title is pretty exciting - way, way more eyeballs going to be on that title than if she were just in "Future State: Batgirls" as a solo two issue miniseries.

There were a few other double-shipping books when the price went up to $3.99 - Harley Quinn and Justice League, and also for a while Titans - the most recent Titans team, the one with Dick and Donna formed to chase down anomalies caused by the Totality. That book switched between monthly and twice monthly a few times.

And then there were the free digital codes that DC eliminated - I forget if they were only on the $3.99 books, or on the $2.99, or both.

DC has become very inconsistent with paper stock, and I really can't figure out their pricing. The Prestige Plus books have more pages and much higher quality paper, and no ads - and yet sometimes cost no more than regular comics.

I'm not sure the old glossy paper used on the regular books was any higher quality than the matte paper - it was often tissue thin and crinkly. Hopefully the matte paper will not decompose like newsprint does over time.

The Batman/Catwoman books will have only card stock covers, which I think explains the higher price. I don't think the heavier paper is worth an extra $1.00, but that's how DC prices it.

[millernumber1]

Thoughts on "Convergence: Batgirl #2 of 2, "The Love Song of Stephanie Brown":

At least Steph came up with a solution that worked. Too bad Kwitney thought Steph has to be down on herself, so had her thinking others would have handled it better. Perhaps she thought that was obligatory in a story about Stephanie. But there WERE others there - and they failed. Steph succeeded.

I'm ok with all the romantic cuddling at the end, but I wish the final narration box just wasn't there. The one that says "If it all has to end, part of me wishes it could end right here." That makes me think "Oh! This story was never meant for me; it was written for 12 year old girls!"

It can even read like a sappy extension to the final sentiment in the series: "It's only over if you want it to be." Apparently Steph goes on to think "But if it IS over, in Tim's arms is how I want it to end." Oh God, I think I just ruined the end of #24! Best to agree that this is some other Steph, not ours.

Yeah - it was a bit too down on Steph overall, from her quitting for an odd reason, to her faking the solution (though honestly, beating Grodd does seem pretty impossible). And that's a really good point about Tim and Cass failing to beat Grodd, though I'm pretty sure Cass at least could have taken Catman.

Interestingly, inspired by reading this miniseries again, I looked up Kwitney's author page, and she has some fun steampunk romance novels out, and I've been reading those. Kind of amusingly, her protagonist for the first one is not nearly as self-doubting as her Steph - so I think she is definitely making a choice there rather than just writing a generic character - and I'd say that Steph's Batgirl run DOES have her struggle with self doubt, just not nearly as much as the Convergence mini portrays.

It's never ruined, though I will say I don't think this is the continuation of Batgirl #24 that I would have voted for.

There were a few other double-shipping books when the price went up to $3.99 - Harley Quinn and Justice League, and also for a while Titans - the most recent Titans team, the one with Dick and Donna formed to chase down anomalies caused by the Totality. That book switched between monthly and twice monthly a few times.

And then there were the free digital codes that DC eliminated - I forget if they were only on the $3.99 books, or on the $2.99, or both.

DC has become very inconsistent with paper stock, and I really can't figure out their pricing. The Prestige Plus books have more pages and much higher quality paper, and no ads - and yet sometimes cost no more than regular comics.

I'm not sure the old glossy paper used on the regular books was any higher quality than the matte paper - it was often tissue thin and crinkly. Hopefully the matte paper will not decompose like newsprint does over time.

The Batman/Catwoman books will have only card stock covers, which I think explains the higher price. I don't think the heavier paper is worth an extra $1.00, but that's how DC prices it.

Oh, right. Forgot about Justice League. Harley finally went down to once a month, though.

The free digital issues were only the 3.99 issues. And those went away after about two years. Though I think they did sometimes include them with the Annuals even after that.

The decomposition is my big concern for the matte paper - I worry that the black ink will fade to grey like it did with my mid-2000s comics.

We shall, of course, see how it all plays out. I appreciate that DC is trying stuff without producing the kind of "ink comes off on your fingers" that Marvel's been doing for many years now. But there's always drawbacks.

[ohfellow]

Interestingly, inspired by reading this miniseries again, I looked up Kwitney's author page, and she has some fun steampunk romance novels out

I do think it's YA material, and one of the things I am worried about is the kind of writing we're going to get during Future State. I don't like it when TV, film, or novel writers try their hands at comics. And I think it's insulting to comic book writers, who have honed a very specific skill.

I'm reminded, for instance, of Julie and Shawn Benson's work on "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey." Took them quite a few issues before they had any idea how to write a comic book. As I recall they even had panels where characters would end phone conversations with stuff on the level of:

"Well talk to you later."
"OK, bye."

Which makes me want to scream. That's not just not how to write a comic book - it's not even how you'd write for TV or film.

Of course they could criticize how I write comments here. That's fair.

Oh, right. Forgot about Justice League. Harley finally went down to once a month, though.

Right, but it double-shipped for a really long time, until Jan 2019. So it wasn't until around issue 57 that it changed to monthly for it's final ~20 issues. That's how it reached 75 while others that started at the same time reached 50 (e.g. Batgirl). Nightwing must have switched a few issues before Harley Quinn since it is at #74. But the ones that double-shipped the whole time are at or around 100. (Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, though of those only Batman has not switched to "legacy" numbering.) Of course Superman and Action switched to monthly when Bendis took over the titles, otherwise those would likely also have continued to double-ship.

The decomposition is my big concern for the matte paper - I worry that the black ink will fade to grey like it did with my mid-2000s comics.

At first, the printing on the matte paper was really fuzzy - maybe too much ink. The different kinds of paper absorb different amounts of ink. I noticed a lot of the text in balloons had shadows. It got better over time. But seems to me the production department and/or the printers need to adapt to the paper, and they weren't doing it.

The more recent problem is the lousy Kentucky printer which DC started using this spring. Have you noticed? EVERY book printed in Kentucky has a few visible creases on the cover near the staple. You can't see the creases on the interior pages, but you can "hear" them. It's these creases that make the paper from some books (only the ones printed in Kentucky!) sound crinkly when you turn the page, and if you look near the binding, you can see what exactly is "crinkling" - it's not really an overall crinkling. It's that the innermost part of the pages hold back and then literally pop as you turn the page. Something you can observe if you turn the page very, very slowly The printer in Montreal - Transcontinental - continues to do fine work, and they also print all of the more expensive books.

I haven't noticed anyone talking about. Perhaps reviewers get mostly digital copies. That's something you could probably shed light on from your work at TBU.

[millernumber1]

I do think it's YA material, and one of the things I am worried about is the kind of writing we're going to get during Future State. I don't like it when TV, film, or novel writers try their hands at comics. And I think it's insulting to comic book writers, who have honed a very specific skill.

I'm reminded, for instance, of Julie and Shawn Benson's work on "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey." Took them quite a few issues before they had any idea how to write a comic book. As I recall they even had panels where characters would end phone conversations with stuff on the level of:

"Well talk to you later."
"OK, bye."

Which makes me want to scream. That's not just not how to write a comic book - it's not even how you'd write for TV or film.

Of course they could criticize how I write comments here. That's fair.

Right, but it double-shipped for a really long time, until Jan 2019. So it wasn't until around issue 57 that it changed to monthly for it's final ~20 issues. That's how it reached 75 while others that started at the same time reached 50 (e.g. Batgirl). Nightwing must have switched a few issues before Harley Quinn since it is at #74. But the ones that double-shipped the whole time are at or around 100. (Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, though of those only Batman has not switched to "legacy" numbering.) Of course Superman and Action switched to monthly when Bendis took over the titles, otherwise those would likely also have continued to double-ship.

At first, the printing on the matte paper was really fuzzy - maybe too much ink. The different kinds of paper absorb different amounts of ink. I noticed a lot of the text in balloons had shadows. It got better over time. But seems to me the production department and/or the printers need to adapt to the paper, and they weren't doing it.

The more recent problem is the lousy Kentucky printer which DC started using this spring. Have you noticed? EVERY book printed in Kentucky has a few visible creases on the cover near the staple. You can't see the creases on the interior pages, but you can "hear" them. It's these creases that make the paper from some books (only the ones printed in Kentucky!) sound crinkly when you turn the page, and if you look near the binding, you can see what exactly is "crinkling" - it's not really an overall crinkling. It's that the innermost part of the pages hold back and then literally pop as you turn the page. Something you can observe if you turn the page very, very slowly The printer in Montreal - Transcontinental - continues to do fine work, and they also print all of the more expensive books.

I haven't noticed anyone talking about. Perhaps reviewers get mostly digital copies. That's something you could probably shed light on from your work at TBU.

Well, DC and Marvel are increasingly looking to YA and tv writers for new talent - Robin Eternal is, as I mentioned, written by a TV writer (from Supernatural). Hopefully Fitzmartin, who is a big comic reader (from the podcast I mentioned as well) has a better sense of the difference between the scripting requirements.

Reviewers do get digital copies only, but I also do buy several physical copies. I don't know which printer I get stuff from, though - I have lived in Minnesota for the past year, so maybe they get a different printer? I do wish there was more money and pride in work so that we got stuff we were proud to own for a long time, even though we're technically collecting ephemera.

[ohfellow]

I don't know which printer I get stuff from, though - I have lived in Minnesota for the past year, so maybe they get a different printer? I do wish there was more money and pride in work so that we got stuff we were proud to own for a long time, even though we're technically collecting ephemera.

The printer is the last thing named in the corporate and administrative credits that appear in tiny print on the last printed page in the back.

[DropOfSaturn]

IMG_20201019_140428.jpg
New sketch from Eddy Barrows (artist on Future State: Robin Eternal)

[Restingvoice]

IMG_20201019_140428.jpg
New sketch from Eddy Barrows (artist on Future State: Robin Eternal)

I suddenly crave for Post Apocalyptic Stephanie... she hasn't appeared in Death Metal has she?

[DropOfSaturn]

I suddenly crave for Post Apocalyptic Stephanie... she hasn't appeared in Death Metal has she?

Not as of yet, unfortunately. Cass made a tiny background cameo in Issue #4, but nothing else concerning either of them so far.