Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

He probably eventually realised the truth about Cass - she just changed her costume and codename. As for Barbara's Batgirl, maybe the public thought she'd been killed? Bear in mind, it wasn't long afterwards that Robin (Jason Todd) got murdered.

Did Gordon have a lot of significant interactions with Cass? For a huge chunk of her career, he was retired. And I can't recall what happened in NML with them other than her saving his life before she was Batgirl.

You do have a point. Also, he didn't credit "After Artgerm." If he had, it might make some people interested in seeking the original. (Some of the eBay auctions do mention it's an Artgerm homage in the auction title.)

Anacleto also drew an Adam Hughes homage of "Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes" #23b for DCeased #2, also for Unknown Comics, which he did credit as "After AH!" That's an even more obscure cover, an incentive variant from 2006 -- I'm thinking Anacleto chose his subject matter from covers he found among Artgerm's and Hughes's work. No way he actually knew of this source material. For all we know, he thought the Artgerm original was Barbara.

I think on his instagram, the artist did credit Artgerm. But oftentimes, an artist will be given information for their covers, without a whole lot of research background also included, sadly.

I wonder if we will ever get Steph in any live-action works. I mean we have Cassie now. This is why I would love to see a Robin movie.

I can only hope.

[Frontier]

Did Gordon have a lot of significant interactions with Cass? For a huge chunk of her career, he was retired. And I can't recall what happened in NML with them other than her saving his life before she was Batgirl.

The most I remember is her involvement in the investigation of who shot him and her noticing how it was effecting Bruce and Barbara.

[ohfellow]

I think on his instagram, the artist did credit Artgerm. But oftentimes, an artist will be given information for their covers, without a whole lot of research background also included, sadly.

You're right. I just checked there. He certainly has -- a style.

[sunofdarkchild]

I wonder if we will ever get Steph in any live-action works. I mean we have Cassie now. This is why I would love to see a Robin movie.

I think a live-action TV show based on the 90s Dixon Robin series could have worked very well, with Steph as Spoiler as the main love interest.

[millernumber1]

I think a live-action TV show based on the 90s Dixon Robin series could have worked very well, with Steph as Spoiler as the main love interest.

I would watch the heck out of that.

[godisawesome]

I’ve long thought that an ambitious and aware executive could order a “Gotham Knights” show based of a combination of a bunch of 90’s runs and family crossovers combined with the last littler renaissance before the New 52 (basically, Batman RIP to Flahspoint.)

So... imagine a show that starts with Tim, Steph, *and* Cass as the “kids” of a show that includes Nightwing, Oracle, and Huntress as the “adults” and Batman as a seldom glimpsed guest star whose impact is felt more on the character when he’s not around and in his Bruce Wayne identity.

Season One has Tim as Robin developing his relationship with Steph as Spoiler when she starts sabotaging her dads crimes, and running into Cass, eventually forming and apprentice unit with Tim as “The Brains,” Cass as “The Brawn,” and Steph as “The Heart” while she gets trained by the other two as well. Season Two, maybe have Jason Todd arrive and have the young guys each get a contrast with him as a pseudo-evil mentor to them in contrast to Dick, Babs, and Helena. Season Three, have Damian arrive, and begin the evolution into Red Robin, Black Bat, and Batgirl for the three in reaction. And maybe get crazy enough to do Batman RIP and Inc.

Go through some adaptations of stuff like Contagion, Officer Down, Bruce Wayne: Murderer, and stuff from their solos.

[millernumber1]

I’ve long thought that an ambitious and aware executive could order a “Gotham Knights” show based of a combination of a bunch of 90’s runs and family crossovers combined with the last littler renaissance before the New 52 (basically, Batman RIP to Flahspoint.)

So... imagine a show that starts with Tim, Steph, *and* Cass as the “kids” of a show that includes Nightwing, Oracle, and Huntress as the “adults” and Batman as a seldom glimpsed guest star whose impact is felt more on the character when he’s not around and in his Bruce Wayne identity.

Season One has Tim as Robin developing his relationship with Steph as Spoiler when she starts sabotaging her dads crimes, and running into Cass, eventually forming and apprentice unit with Tim as “The Brains,” Cass as “The Brawn,” and Steph as “The Heart” while she gets trained by the other two as well. Season Two, maybe have Jason Todd arrive and have the young guys each get a contrast with him as a pseudo-evil mentor to them in contrast to Dick, Babs, and Helena. Season Three, have Damian arrive, and begin the evolution into Red Robin, Black Bat, and Batgirl for the three in reaction. And maybe get crazy enough to do Batman RIP and Inc.

Go through some adaptations of stuff like Contagion, Officer Down, Bruce Wayne: Murderer, and stuff from their solos.

I would adore that show so much. But sadly, I think it's clearly never going to happen. They keep doing shows like Gotham or Batwoman instead, drawing from the "new hotness" instead of the richer history they have available.

[godisawesome]

I would adore that show so much. But sadly, I think it's clearly never going to happen. They keep doing shows like Gotham or Batwoman instead, drawing from the "new hotness" instead of the richer history they have available.

Gotham was stuck trying to be a prequel desperately wanting to be a regular Batman show made by someone who skimmed Wikipedia but never wanted to deep dive any of it.

Batwoman is definitely an attempt to capture a hot new IP in form... but does have some justified impetus behind it in regards to representation.

I think the biggest real impediment to the idea is that it would require a large ensemble, comfort and even an embracing of growth and evolution instead of a repetitive formula, and then a combination of lore investment and quality control to real excel.

Basically, you’d have to have someone with the ambition of either Game of Thrones, Avatar: The Last Airbender, or a prestige cable series... and a willingness to not get wholly distracted and focus only on Batman or on some idea of a “perfected” abridged Batfamily - and I’d say the last impulse is something that’s always plagued Batman adaptations since the family started getting past 5 members.

I mean, it took us until Young Justice’s Season 2 to admit to the existence of more than two Robins in some popular non-comic medium, and thus far only Young Justice has openly featured Stephanie and Cass. The instincts of most executives and producers is to try and “trim fat” from the mythos in translation, or to order unnecessary changes to try and “market better,” which is anathema to the kind of lore expansion and scale that the Bat-family has frankly thrived on for decades in the comics.

It’s why I tend to look at Young Justice, acknowledge that we’ve really only got one/third of a good Steph episode, one/third of a good Cass episodeM and about 2 and one/half good episodes of a Tim Drake who’s clearly the third in the Robin mantle... but it’s still better than nothing.

They really need to just have someone at DC Universe propose to just have some expansion series that can focus on any of the two dozen or so stories taking place in the background.

[millernumber1]

Gotham was stuck trying to be a prequel desperately wanting to be a regular Batman show made by someone who skimmed Wikipedia but never wanted to deep dive any of it.

Batwoman is definitely an attempt to capture a hot new IP in form... but does have some justified impetus behind it in regards to representation.

I think the biggest real impediment to the idea is that it would require a large ensemble, comfort and even an embracing of growth and evolution instead of a repetitive formula, and then a combination of lore investment and quality control to real excel.

Basically, you’d have to have someone with the ambition of either Game of Thrones, Avatar: The Last Airbender, or a prestige cable series... and a willingness to not get wholly distracted and focus only on Batman or on some idea of a “perfected” abridged Batfamily - and I’d say the last impulse is something that’s always plagued Batman adaptations since the family started getting past 5 members.

I mean, it took us until Young Justice’s Season 2 to admit to the existence of more than two Robins in some popular non-comic medium, and thus far only Young Justice has openly featured Stephanie and Cass. The instincts of most executives and producers is to try and “trim fat” from the mythos in translation, or to order unnecessary changes to try and “market better,” which is anathema to the kind of lore expansion and scale that the Bat-family has frankly thrived on for decades in the comics.

It’s why I tend to look at Young Justice, acknowledge that we’ve really only got one/third of a good Steph episode, one/third of a good Cass episodeM and about 2 and one/half good episodes of a Tim Drake who’s clearly the third in the Robin mantle... but it’s still better than nothing.

They really need to just have someone at DC Universe propose to just have some expansion series that can focus on any of the two dozen or so stories taking place in the background.

Well said. Even in the early 2000s, the Birds of Prey show showed the sadly continued impulses to "simplify" concepts and add flashy powers to Batfamily type characters, leaving the result looking almost nothing like the comics. YJ, for all that it changes quite a bit, still feels like the comics to me, which is quite impressive. I really hope we get at least a full episode in season 4 featuring Steph, though.

Titans, for all its weaknesses, doesn't really try to trim things. It features two Robins at the same time, which I still love it for.

[sunofdarkchild]

I wasn't thinking of anything so ambitious. A teen drama focusing on Tim as Robin with Batman out of town, maybe because he's looking for Tim's parents or father like during Knightquest. Instead of the big guns, it would focus on smaller Batman villains like Cluemaster, thereby saving on budget, giving these villains a chance to shine, providing Tim and Steph with a threat level they can handle, and no crapping on Batman when he's not around.

[millernumber1]

I wasn't thinking of anything so ambitious. A teen drama focusing on Tim as Robin with Batman out of town, maybe because he's looking for Tim's parents or father like during Knightquest. Instead of the big guns, it would focus on smaller Batman villains like Cluemaster, thereby saving on budget, giving these villains a chance to shine, providing Tim and Steph with a threat level they can handle, and no crapping on Batman when he's not around.

That would also be truly delightful!

[Frontier]

I wonder if part of the reason Steph might be limited on YJ is because Mae Whitman just can't do another voice distinct from her Wonder Girl voice. I am convinced that's why they added a vocal effect to Spoiler's voice.

[millernumber1]

I wonder if part of the reason Steph might be limited on YJ is because Mae Whitman just can't do another voice distinct from her Wonder Girl voice. I am convinced that's why they added a vocal effect to Spoiler's voice.

I mean, I've been listening to Mae Whitman voices for over a decade now, and she does tend to use the same voice. But...honestly, she's not the only one in the cast of YJ who does something similar to that.

[godisawesome]

I mean, I've been listening to Mae Whitman voices for over a decade now, and she does tend to use the same voice. But...honestly, she's not the only one in the cast of YJ who does something similar to that.

Indeed. Steve Blum basically just switches up accents... but it works.

I wasn't thinking of anything so ambitious. A teen drama focusing on Tim as Robin with Batman out of town, maybe because he's looking for Tim's parents or father like during Knightquest. Instead of the big guns, it would focus on smaller Batman villains like Cluemaster, thereby saving on budget, giving these villains a chance to shine, providing Tim and Steph with a threat level they can handle, and no crapping on Batman when he's not around.

...Okay, here me out on this. I like to compile a list of story ideas I would have if I ever had a chance to do a “The Biography of Batman” story - a set timeline with major events adopted in a specific order and tied together, some familiar, and some new, and some juts heavily modified.

And I had a similar idea that I was too shy to share outright previously about how I’d handle Tim coming into his own with the mantle in Gotham and for having Stephanie join him as a partner, all with Batman absent.

Basically, set the story during an extended and more developed portrayal of Bane’s reign in the immediate aftermath of Knightfall.

Bruce is off trying to get his back fixed and recovering with Alfred, Bane has installed Bird as his “steward” over Gotham while he goes off to conquer other cities and make them pay tribute to him, and Tim?

Tim’s basically running a guerrilla campaign against Bane’s underworld hierarchy, having to avoid direct confrontations with most of the big name baddies, and do what he can to help the city as it slips back into corruption, picking off low hanging fruit and trying to contain crossfire from the occasional “court politics” in a city where Bird presides over a “Gotham Commission” that’s divided up neighborhoods and districts and have court politic-style backstabbings and infighting: Black Mask, Penguin, Riddler, the Falcone remnant, Councilman “Boss” Thorne... and Catwoman as a reluctant leader of the East End after she “stole” it from the Falcone’s.

And Tim’s secret weapon? Spoiler. She joins him because she sympathizes with his plight, and so her scrappy, can-do attitude is what’s keeping Tim going in an otherwise hopeless situation. I might also make a joke by having her end up as Catwoman’s de-facto disciple in stealth, sabotage, and flirting with a stoic goody two-shoes.

The main week-to-week villains would be low level hoodlums, C- and D-list Batman rogues, and maybe even Tim and Steph’s own personal enemies in some shape or form - Cluemaster as someone’s bitter second-in-command against the Riddler for Steph, and maybe King Snake as Tim’s personal enemy.

And since Bird is Bane’s representative, the de-facto big bad is another sidekick - just a villainous one.

You could have brief cameos or mentions of Nightwing and Oracle as they seek to stop the expansion of Bane’s empire outside of Gotham. And maybe have Cass appear at some point and join them.

[millernumber1]

...Okay, here me out on this. I like to compile a list of story ideas I would have if I ever had a chance to do a “The Biography of Batman” story - a set timeline with major events adopted in a specific order and tied together, some familiar, and some new, and some juts heavily modified.

And I had a similar idea that I was too shy to share outright previously about how I’d handle Tim coming into his own with the mantle in Gotham and for having Stephanie join him as a partner, all with Batman absent.

Basically, set the story during an extended and more developed portrayal of Bane’s reign in the immediate aftermath of Knightfall.

Bruce is off trying to get his back fixed and recovering with Alfred, Bane has installed Bird as his “steward” over Gotham while he goes off to conquer other cities and make them pay tribute to him, and Tim?

Tim’s basically running a guerrilla campaign against Bane’s underworld hierarchy, having to avoid direct confrontations with most of the big name baddies, and do what he can to help the city as it slips back into corruption, picking off low hanging fruit and trying to contain crossfire from the occasional “court politics” in a city where Bird presides over a “Gotham Commission” that’s divided up neighborhoods and districts and have court politic-style backstabbings and infighting: Black Mask, Penguin, Riddler, the Falcone remnant, Councilman “Boss” Thorne... and Catwoman as a reluctant leader of the East End after she “stole” it from the Falcone’s.

And Tim’s secret weapon? Spoiler. She joins him because she sympathizes with his plight, and so her scrappy, can-do attitude is what’s keeping Tim going in an otherwise hopeless situation. I might also make a joke by having her end up as Catwoman’s de-facto disciple in stealth, sabotage, and flirting with a stoic goody two-shoes.

The main week-to-week villains would be low level hoodlums, C- and D-list Batman rogues, and maybe even Tim and Steph’s own personal enemies in some shape or form - Cluemaster as someone’s bitter second-in-command against the Riddler for Steph, and maybe King Snake as Tim’s personal enemy.

And since Bird is Bane’s representative, the de-facto big bad is another sidekick - just a villainous one.

You could have brief cameos or mentions of Nightwing and Oracle as they seek to stop the expansion of Bane’s empire outside of Gotham. And maybe have Cass appear at some point and join them.

This sounds really cool. I personally would rather have a "Battle for the Cowl" series, with Red Robin, Steph Batgirl, and Black Bat, but that's probably just as unlikely as anything else. What you describe is basically what I'd love to see from City of Bane (and I'm still really mad that we never got that status quo fleshed out with this kind of sidekick storyline). There are many things you could steal from comics for such a TV show - as you mention, Steph as Catwoman's apprentice could borrow heavily from the Valentine Catwoman run. Tim's campaign could borrow from Knightfall, of course, but also City of Bane, Tynion's Tec run, and Red Robin. (I'd make Catwoman a Calabrese again, though.)

I'd wonder if this were meant to be an ongoing show, or more like a miniseries. If they were willing to do miniseries with the same cast, it'd be really cool.