Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2020

[Konja7]

But didn't Detective #980 already say that there was a timeline where she was Batgirl? And Tim has remembered that timeline already. (Though he hasn't mentioned the Batgirl part.) So - it "happened." The paradoxes DC has been showing us over and over lately are that all of these things that have been written did happen, no matter how contradictory.

There's an epilogue in the Flash Forward collection that was not published in comic form, but perhaps was originally going to be in the Generation Zero free comic, where Wally West views a number of different versions of groups and heroes, "shards of inconsistencies from a reality toyed with over and over." Doomsday Clock put out similar ideas. And I feel like we have seen similar scenes in several different titles lately, though I can't easily cite them. A scene where there are different versions of Teen Titans, each forming as if for the first time.

I do think Steph's history as Batgirl will probably be referenced again at some point.

You can say "Well, but it was some other timeline, not *this* one." But - no one timeline is superior to any other. "This one" doesn't exist in some special way. Maybe "5G" was going to be an attempt to align all stories into some kind of consecutive history, but that has been abandoned in favor of "it all happened but has been tampered with over and over." In fiction, by Dr. Manhattan. In reality, by the editors of DC.

I agree in many things you say.

However, I should say that one timeline is always superior to any other: the current timeline. That timeline is the main focus, while other timelines are scarcely mentioned.

I think it is still posiible they add Stephanie's Batgirl in the current timeline (after Death Metal). Of course, it wouldn't be the same story we read in the comic, but that happens everytime an old concept is add to the continuity.

For example: Tim recover Robin and YJ, but the events aren't really the same that happened in the comic.


PS: Speaking of Tim, his New52 Teen Titans aren't part of the current timeline (which I think it is for the best). I think this will be an example of a previous timeline that will never be mentioned again by writers (except for Lobdell).

[ohfellow]

I agree in many things you say.

However, I should say that one timeline is always superior to any other: the current timeline. That timeline is the main focus, while other timelines are scarcely mentioned.

I think it is still posiible they add Stephanie's Batgirl in the current timeline (after Death Metal). Of course, it wouldn't be the same story we read in the comic, but that happens everytime an old concept is add to the continuity.

For example: Tim recover Robin and YJ, but the events aren't really the same that happened in the comic.


PS: Speaking of Tim, his New52 Teen Titans aren't part of the current timeline (which I think it is for the best). I think this will be an example of a previous timeline that will never be mentioned again by writers (except for Lobdell).

I'm not sure which is New52 Teen Titans, if any, but Lobdell did include at least 4 different Teen Titans rosters in Generation Zero.

And I will now display my ignorance as I try to list each of the teams Lobdell included:

Dick, Donna and Garth

Some Robin, Wally, Arsenal (? a red-dressed archer with a yellow hat), Donna, and I guess Garth

Tim (I think), Cassie in a pink dress with gold gauntlets, Ravager, ... some Flash, someone that looks like Shadow Lass (but surely isn't), Superboy - this must be the New 52 version. Weird looking bunch. I see Lobdell wrote that title, makes sense he would write callbacks to it now.

Some Robin, Cyborg, Donna, Starfire, Raven, and I guess Gar - is this the New Teen Titans?

The current roster is so strange - Donna was promoted to (the cancelled) Titans, Starfire promoted to (the now-cancelled) Justice League Odyssey team, Tim, Cassie and Conner demoted to (the now-cancelled) Young Justice, and a bunch of mostly unknowns in what's left of (the now-cancelled) Teen Titans. These team books have not fared well!

Aren't Teen Titans older than Young Justice? Then how is Damian in Teen Titans, while Tim is in Young Justice?

Are you sure the New 52 Teen Titans isn't part of the current timeline, given Rebirth flows from New 52 in a nearly unbroken way? Wasn't the only big change Superman Reborn? This is still the timeline where Barbara got her chip.

[Konja7]

I'm not sure which is New52 Teen Titans, if any, but Lobdell did include at least 4 different Teen Titans rosters in Generation Zero.

And I will now display my ignorance as I try to list each of the teams Lobdell included:

Dick, Donna and Garth

Some Robin, Wally, Arsenal (? a red-dressed archer with a yellow hat), Donna, and I guess Garth

Tim (I think), Cassie in a pink dress with gold gauntlets, Ravager, ... some Flash, someone that looks like Shadow Lass (but surely isn't), Superboy - this must be the New 52 version. Weird looking bunch. I see Lobdell wrote that title, makes sense he would write callbacks to it now.

Some Robin, Cyborg, Donna, Starfire, Raven, and I guess Gar - is this the New Teen Titans?

The current roster is so strange - Donna was promoted to (the cancelled) Titans, Starfire promoted to (the now-cancelled) Justice League Odyssey team, Tim, Cassie and Conner demoted to (the now-cancelled) Young Justice, and a bunch of mostly unknowns in what's left of (the now-cancelled) Teen Titans. These team books have not fared well!

Aren't Teen Titans older than Young Justice? Then how is Damian in Teen Titans, while Tim is in Young Justice?

Are you sure the New 52 Teen Titans isn't part of the current timeline, given Rebirth flows from New 52 in a nearly unbroken way? Wasn't the only big change Superman Reborn? This is still the timeline where Barbara got her chip.

Superman Reborn caused that New52 Superboy never existed in the current timeline, DCU app has a profile for Superboy that mentioned this. That means New52 Teen Titans (the group with Cassie in a pink dress with gold gauntlets) wouldn't exist either.

That's why nobody mentions New52 Superboy when Conner appear in Superman comic.


As the creator of New52 Teen Titans, Lobdell wants to add the group when he can (he did this in Red Hood too), but other writers just treat the group as if it had never existed.

[ohfellow]

Superman Reborn caused that New52 Superboy never existed in the current timeline, DCU app has a profile for Superboy that mentioned this. That means New52 Teen Titans (the group with Cassie in a pink dress with gold gauntlets) wouldn't exist either.

That's why nobody mentions New52 Superboy when Conner appear in Superman comic.


As the creator of New52 Teen Titans, Lobdell wants to add the group when he can (he did this in Red Hood too), but other writers just treat the group as if it had never existed.

Is this the Superboy that was found trapped in Gemworld by Young Justice?

[Konja7]

Is this the Superboy that was found trapped in Gemworld by Young Justice?

No.

The Superboy trapped in Gemworld is Conner. He is supossedly Pre-Flashpoint continuity Superboy (although even his story is pretty altered).

New52 Superboy is the Superboy who has a solo (written by Lobdell) at the beginning of New52. He was the Superboy in New52 Teen Titans. After the events in Superman Reborn, it seems he never existed.

[millernumber1]

But didn't Detective #980 already say that there was a timeline where she was Batgirl? And Tim has remembered that timeline already. (Though he hasn't mentioned the Batgirl part.) So - it "happened." The paradoxes DC has been showing us over and over lately are that all of these things that have been written did happen, no matter how contradictory.

There's an epilogue in the Flash Forward collection that was not published in comic form, but perhaps was originally going to be in the Generation Zero free comic, where Wally West views a number of different versions of groups and heroes, "shards of inconsistencies from a reality toyed with over and over." Doomsday Clock put out similar ideas. And I feel like we have seen similar scenes in several different titles lately, though I can't easily cite them. A scene where there are different versions of Teen Titans, each forming as if for the first time.

I do think Steph's history as Batgirl will probably be referenced again at some point.

You can say "Well, but it was some other timeline, not *this* one." But - no one timeline is superior to any other. "This one" doesn't exist in some special way. Maybe "5G" was going to be an attempt to align all stories into some kind of consecutive history, but that has been abandoned in favor of "it all happened but has been tampered with over and over." In fiction, by Dr. Manhattan. In reality, by the editors of DC.

Yes, Tec 980 showed Steph and Cass their previous timeline, but they don't (as far as I know) currently have memories of this. That could change, but it hasn't as of yet. Steph does know about that - she referenced it in Young Justice #5. I live in hope that this is DC finally acknowledging the history.

I agree in many things you say.

However, I should say that one timeline is always superior to any other: the current timeline. That timeline is the main focus, while other timelines are scarcely mentioned.

I think it is still posiible they add Stephanie's Batgirl in the current timeline (after Death Metal). Of course, it wouldn't be the same story we read in the comic, but that happens everytime an old concept is add to the continuity.

For example: Tim recover Robin and YJ, but the events aren't really the same that happened in the comic.

PS: Speaking of Tim, his New52 Teen Titans aren't part of the current timeline (which I think it is for the best). I think this will be an example of a previous timeline that will never be mentioned again by writers (except for Lobdell).

It's very true that the current timeline is superior - but it's also very malleable to retcons. I hope what you're talking about happens.

Aren't Teen Titans older than Young Justice? Then how is Damian in Teen Titans, while Tim is in Young Justice?

Are you sure the New 52 Teen Titans isn't part of the current timeline, given Rebirth flows from New 52 in a nearly unbroken way? Wasn't the only big change Superman Reborn? This is still the timeline where Barbara got her chip.

What has and hasn't happened is really dependent on what the writers reference. You're right that I generally assume that time flows from the n52 relatively unbroken, but details get changed along the way (in Robin, Son of Batman, Damian is 10, near the end of the n52, but in Rebirth, published less than a year later, he's 13).

Bendis is treating Young Justice as the Young Justice League, rather than a teen team by itself - I think he views that as either on the same level or on a higher level than Teen Titans. I have no idea what editorial thinks, or what other writers or fans think, but that's how Bendis has been writing it.

[Dataweaver]

In my head-canon, the N52 Superboy was in fact the N52-ized version of Match, who was resurrected and transformed by Flashpoint in much the same way that DCU Rebirth resurrected and transformed Ted Kord and Ryan Choi. Similarly, in my head-canon the N52 Kid Flash (Bar Torr) was likewise a “rebooted” Inertia. It takes a bit of finessing to make this work; but it can be made to work.

And as I said a few posts back, my current preference is that it should all have happened; and that includes the N52 stuff, at least in terms of the broad strokes.

But this is starting to get a bit off-topic for Stephanie's appreciation thread, so I'll stop there.

[millernumber1]

Batgirl 24 re-read thoughts:

Cover: love it. I feel like Nguyen has drawn a dozen similar montages, but they are always excellent.

Plot: finally, no significant complaints. Well, one: I don't see how it makes much sense that Cluemaster was behind the Reapers. How is any of that "avenging Steph," and how does it explain the Reaper chapter Gage belonged to some time back and in some other city?

But overall, I thought this issue was well balanced and tightly written. Well done to go straight from the prison cell to waking up in the hospital and a lovely scene with Crystal, then showing the hallucinations later as flashbacks.

Maybe the best untold story would be the League of Batgirls transported back to 1944, though I'd also like to see the Lanterns story.

That's a sweet moment with Damian looking on and saluting Steph - he's not the same Damian these days!

The last 2 pages have always given me chills, and the best line is "It's only the end if you want it to be," with Steph winking at the readers. I don't feel that it's an entirely original sentiment as a closing remark, but as a whole the scene works beautifully.

As for artists, it's probably a tie between Garbett and Perez, though I have to overlook the boots Perez draws.

The "Unsinkable" title works for Steph, and perhaps is deliberately invoking the Unsinkable Molly Brown.

Did DC let creators write "goodbyes" much in those days? I've seen very few at DC, and never more than a couple of words. Joshua Williamson just got to write one in the back of Flash #762.

In conclusion, I think this 2-part finale ends up elevating the entire series into the classic it might otherwise not have been. Sales usually dry up for the last couple of issues as soon as a final issue is announced, but I sometimes start buying titles just as they are ending, to see how well they stick the landing. It's the story where the writer gets to really emphasize their theme and reach for some emotional highs, and when well done you just choke up.

Awesome thoughts! The "final cover with all the team on it" montages are really recognizable, but I think this is truly one of the best.

I think that after Steph returned from the dead, Cluemaster's plan shifted from "avenge Steph" in War Crimes, to "make her a better hero" in his twisted way. The Reaper plot is always gonna be a bit unsatisfying, because it's clearly something that should have had at least another 2 issues, probably more like 6-12, to fully explain what BQM was doing with them.

The scene with Crystal is so excellent. Definitely gets the emotions going.

I agree about the League of Time Travelling Batgirls being my most hoped for one - I think I'd also love to see the opening medieval fantasy adventure. And graduation, of course.

Poor Damian - every friend he makes is taken away - Steph, Colin, Maya, Jon...I think it's very sad.

Those pirate boots of Perez! I have to admit that I think Nguyen is my favorite, then Garbett, then Perez, but they're all really great.

I think DC will let a creator write a goodbye, but they probably have to include that in their page count, and that involves kinda screwing over the art team by taking a page from their pay (probably, I don't know for sure). BQM included it in the final page with art. Tom King and James Tynion, and Greg Rucka and Chris Priest all chose not to have a goodbye page in Batman, Detective Comics, Wonder Woman, and Deathstroke, so I'm interested that Williamson did - though Williamson wrote a LOT more issues than any of them. Though Williamson didn't screw over the art team - he just left a note, like BQM. I personally like that kind of touch, but I dunno how many writers like to step outside of their runs to do it. It might be a very painful thing.

[Tsukiakari1203]

I would vote to show her eyes.
Stephanie Brown has always been a joyful, emotive character and it’s much easier to portray that when you can see her eyes. More fun- and often funny- as well, to experience her reactions more easily.
It also makes her distinct from Cassandra, who appropriately wears a full face mask. She is the machine-like, emotionless League of Assassins-trained martial artist when in costume.

In fact, if there is to be a ‘Batgirls’ team, I think that it would be cool to have one Batgirl with a mask that covers the upper half of her face (Barbara), one with a mask that covers the lower (Stephanie), and one that covers the entire (Cassandra).

and one that is covering just the eyes. Bette I miss you

[Tsukiakari1203]

What if...they rebel and take the symbol themselves?

I want this! The only Batgirl who doesn't the chest bat-symbol is Bette. She has hers on her belt. It's very cute

[Tsukiakari1203]

It seems that someone added the batsymbol in one Steph image that I am unable to remember now..

Attachment 101015

This image source pinterest:

https://www.google.com/search?q=step...rVl3EbWJP2JRoM

millernumber1 I think that this image would be worthy to be in the first post of the future STEPHANIE BROWN 2021 APPRECIATION

I love this picture and I second it's use

[Tsukiakari1203]

Well, I think that one of the big things that could be next is the idea of Steph (and Cass) being part of the "Batgirls" under Babs's mentorship/training. And I think that would be really good for them.

I do enjoy historical analysis, even when I lived through the history, but it depends on how helpful that analysis is.

How about under Babs and Bette? (Yes, I know I talk about Bette Kane way too much)

[Tsukiakari1203]

One thing about the “Team Batgirl” notion is that all four of them can go by the codename of Batgirl as their public persona, while having a separate, private codename for private communications. (Why not use their real names? Because you never know when the private communications will be hacked.)

There's Barbara Gordon, the Oracle Batgirl;
There's Cassandra Cain, the Orphan Batgirl*;
There's Stephanie Brown, the Spoiler Batgirl;
And there's Bette Kane, the Flamebird Batgirl.

(And you don't have to stop there; you could, for example, also have the Misfit Batgirl and the Flying Fox Batgirl.)

* or Black Bat, or whatever.

YES PLEASE! You get points for including Bette who desperately needs to be used more

[Tsukiakari1203]

I agree about the League of Time Travelling Batgirls being my most hoped for one - I think I'd also love to see the opening medieval fantasy adventure. And graduation, of course.

Poor Damian - every friend he makes is taken away - Steph, Colin, Maya, Jon...I think it's very sad.

Don't forget Suren and Kathy Branden. And Maps!

[Dataweaver]

How about under Babs and Bette? (Yes, I know I talk about Bette Kane way too much)

Sadly, Bette doesn't have enough leadership cred to credibly mentor anyone; the closest she came was in the late 90s when she and Garfield Logan attempted to start a new Titans East team. Sadly, it didn't last.

Frankly though: if Stephanie and Cassandra regain their pre-Flashpoint memories, they'll be past the point of needing mentors. Babs would still get the leadership role on Team Batgirl because of her organizational skills; but other than that, I'd see them as a team of equals.

In effect, a new Birds of Prey, only Batgirl themed.