Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2020

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
I wouldn't say "childish", but rather cartoony. I don't want to invalidate people who felt uncomfortable with the story - you can't control your experience and how it affects the way you read - but
[…]

I would not say I'm uncomfortable with the story, rather I would say the story about Stephanie seems to me not in harmony with the rest of the book and with her own history: like you say the art is more cartoonish, while in the other stories is more realistic, in the story she seem very young (even younger than Damian), while (if I'm not wrong) she was about 18 years old when she become Robin. So in my opinion the story is good, but I have the impression it seems more childish than it actually is, just because of particulars like these.

[…]
I don't like the implication that if you love this story you're only doing so for morally bad reasons.
[…]

I really don't understand what you want say with "morally bad reason", but I have the unpleasant feeling I made the mistake to merge involuntarily two different topics in my comment: the way the fans react to the stories they read and how this story actually is and doing this, my comment seems extremely harsh toward the story about Stephanie, when it was meant to be very soft; in fact I have changed the comment, but without successful it seems.

[Digifiend]

Young Justice #18:

[millernumber1]

I thought it was a fun little story. Steph trying to be a Robin, and Bruce getting used to having a girl as Robin. Honestly liked the lighter story it told (same with the Super Sons one later on).

Agreed. I think Steph is generally better to show the hope and enthusiasm of the Batfamily. Much as I do still adore the Tynion Tec run, I think that Steph's storyline being so dark is part of why it wasn't as widely embraced as I wish.

I would not say I'm uncomfortable with the story, rather I would say the story about Stephanie seems to me not in harmony with the rest of the book and with her own history: like you say the art is more cartoonish, while in the other stories is more realistic, in the story she seem very young (even younger than Damian), while (if I'm not wrong) she was about 18 years old when she become Robin. So in my opinion the story is good, but I have the impression it seems more childish than it actually is, just because of particulars like these.

I really don't understand what you want say with "morally bad reason", but I have the unpleasant feeling I made the mistake to merge involuntarily two different topics in my comment: the way the fans react to the stories they read and how this story actually is and doing this, my comment seems extremely harsh toward the story about Stephanie, when it was meant to be very soft; in fact I have changed the comment, but without successful it seems.

I apologize for how upset I was when I responded. I spent all of yesterday on tumblr and the discord server talking to people who were incredibly angry about the story, and it really upset me. Your comment was quite reasonably expressed, so I'm very sorry that you caught my reaction at others instead of your own post.

What I meant by "morally bad reason" is that the people who were really angry kept saying that Steph was "sexualized" - implying that anyone who enjoyed the story and the art was enjoying it for sexual reasons.

Steph was at least 16 when she was Robin (I could argue for 17, but ages are tricky in comics, and assumptions get retconned every day). But she's never going to be as dark a character as Damian - despite a lot of dark elements, and adult themes like her pregnancy, she was never the pawn in an international world-destroying death cult battle between her parents, or been brainwashed to kill many times before she was 10.

I think that Steph's story being lighter (though a lot of the stories had a light touch - it was very much a celebratory issue) fits her personality - the note about her being impatient for her new costume was a really fun one, but not the kind of thing that you'd expect from the other Robins, except maybe a 10 year old Dick.

Young Justice #18:

Hooray! One of the best pieces I've seen from John Timms! Coming in July!

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
I apologize for how upset I was when I responded. I spent all of yesterday on tumblr and the discord server
[…]

Why do you hate yourself so much?

[…]
Your comment was quite reasonably expressed, so I'm very sorry that you caught my reaction at others instead of your own post.
[…]

I'm glad.

[…]
What I meant by "morally bad reason" is that the people who were really angry kept saying that Steph was "sexualized" - implying that anyone who enjoyed the story and the art was enjoying it for sexual reasons.
[…]

I can understand if you were talking about Lady Death, Vampirella or Black Cat, but about this Stephanie?
Oh my God!

[…]
Steph was at least 16 when she was Robin (I could argue for 17, but ages are tricky in comics, and assumptions get retconned every day). But she's never going to be as dark a character as Damian - despite a lot of dark elements, and adult themes like her pregnancy, she was never the pawn in an international world-destroying death cult battle between her parents, or been brainwashed to kill many times before she was 10.
[…]

If I'm not wrong during their first encounter it was suggested Stephanie was older than Tim and when she became Robin, he was at the college so…
I don't know, I don't wanna know!

[K. Jones]

Shout out to Stephanie showing up and being like "Oh no Tim Drake, you are not sticking with that costume."

She's still repping the N52/Eternal variant of the Spoiler costume featuring a bunch of the elements from the Reborn Batgirl costume, which looks fantastic. Tim's Drake costume ... ahhhh ... I don't hate it but like, it is odd. I like that it feels like "Jack Kirby Does Nightwing" but it still feels First Draft and hopefully gets tightened up regularly, for instance the same way that Capullo, Fabok and other artists continuously refined and made Jim Lee's harsh N52 Batman costume much better with every new drawing.

[millernumber1]

Why do you hate yourself so much?

I can understand if you were talking about Lady Death, Vampirella or Black Cat, but about this Stephanie?
Oh my God!

If I'm not wrong during their first encounter it was suggested Stephanie was older than Tim and when she became Robin, he was at the college so…
I don't know, I don't wanna know!

Well, I have been trying to nurture and participate in the Steph community. Sadly, yesterday was not a good day for me.

I was very taken aback by the "sexualization" comments as well. To me, and to my podcast co-hosts, it felt much more a realistic note about her costume, as well as a thematic framework for Steph becoming her own Robin.

Steph is about 12-18 months older than Tim. When Tim became Robin, he was about 12-14, I think. Steph being 16 when she became Robin would fit "older than Tim" in both ways. And Tim still hasn't been to college as Robin, as far as I know. Maybe in some alternate futures, but never as Robin or Red Robin.

[millernumber1]

Shout out to Stephanie showing up and being like "Oh no Tim Drake, you are not sticking with that costume."

She's still repping the N52/Eternal variant of the Spoiler costume featuring a bunch of the elements from the Reborn Batgirl costume, which looks fantastic. Tim's Drake costume ... ahhhh ... I don't hate it but like, it is odd. I like that it feels like "Jack Kirby Does Nightwing" but it still feels First Draft and hopefully gets tightened up regularly, for instance the same way that Capullo, Fabok and other artists continuously refined and made Jim Lee's harsh N52 Batman costume much better with every new drawing.

That comment about the Drake costume made me smile. I don't hate it as much as many others seem to, but I do think Steph would think it's not nearly as cool as even the showgirl wing costume. I do hope that someone can make the Drake costume work soon. We're stuck with it until July, at least.

And as you say, Steph's Spoiler costume is still really great. And she even has the full face mask, to make Frontier happy

[Tzigone]

I think that Steph's story being lighter (though a lot of the stories had a light touch - it was very much a celebratory issue) fits her personality - the note about her being impatient for her new costume was a really fun one, but not the kind of thing that you'd expect from the other Robins, except maybe a 10 year old Dick.

Making a 15+-year-old Steph sound like a ten-year-old really isn't my thing. I haven't read the story - it's just your description gives me a negative vibe on that. Then again, I am much fonder of her earlier characterization than the smiley, quippy, often-treated-as-ditzy-in-fandom later characterization. I think there have at times been very definitely downgrades in how both Steph and Dick are depicted by the professionals and perceived by the fandom (as airheads or "moral support" or "cuddle bugs" or otherwise as persons not to be taken seriously or professionally respected).

Shout out to Stephanie showing up and being like "Oh no Tim Drake, you are not sticking with that costume."

And that's just cringe-worthy to me, even if I don't like a given costume.

[Digifiend]

Well, I have been trying to nurture and participate in the Steph community. Sadly, yesterday was not a good day for me.

I was very taken aback by the "sexualization" comments as well. To me, and to my podcast co-hosts, it felt much more a realistic note about her costume, as well as a thematic framework for Steph becoming her own Robin.

Steph is about 12-18 months older than Tim. When Tim became Robin, he was about 12-14, I think. Steph being 16 when she became Robin would fit "older than Tim" in both ways. And Tim still hasn't been to college as Robin, as far as I know. Maybe in some alternate futures, but never as Robin or Red Robin.

Yeah, Steph was at university when she was Batgirl, but Tim at the same time was a high school senior (and then dropped out to focus on Red Robin and Wayne Enterprises work).

[Restingvoice]

Well, I have been trying to nurture and participate in the Steph community. Sadly, yesterday was not a good day for me.

I was very taken aback by the "sexualization" comments as well. To me, and to my podcast co-hosts, it felt much more a realistic note about her costume, as well as a thematic framework for Steph becoming her own Robin.

Steph is about 12-18 months older than Tim. When Tim became Robin, he was about 12-14, I think. Steph being 16 when she became Robin would fit "older than Tim" in both ways. And Tim still hasn't been to college as Robin, as far as I know. Maybe in some alternate futures, but never as Robin or Red Robin.

My first thought when I saw the clothes scene was... she's the first girl, and Bruce was not used to having a girl, so he screwed up the measurements and how to treat her, giving Steph old Tim and Dick's clothes when they have a different body type and therefore a different requirement. So the tone that I got was a new dad and a new daughter trying to figure stuff out.

There's something interesting about Tumblr psychology, where a lot of people gather at first because they want to avoid Annoying Things and form a Safe Space so they don't have to experience it again, but because they build their own rules that includes Signs Of Things They Should Avoid, the moment they saw those Signs, especially out of context since people don't upload the full story, it's immediately equated with The Worst

[Digifiend]

She's actually the second girl sidekick he's had, but the first wasn't a Robin (Cassandra, who of course was Batgirl instead).

[millernumber1]

Making a 15+-year-old Steph sound like a ten-year-old really isn't my thing. I haven't read the story - it's just your description gives me a negative vibe on that. Then again, I am much fonder of her earlier characterization than the smiley, quippy, often-treated-as-ditzy-in-fandom later characterization. I think there have at times been very definitely downgrades in how both Steph and Dick are depicted by the professionals and perceived by the fandom (as airheads or "moral support" or "cuddle bugs" or otherwise as persons not to be taken seriously or professionally respected).

I didn't read it as her sounding 10, just that the only Robin who would ever have sounded like that (even at 10) would have been Dick. Sorry for the wording.

Yeah, Steph was at university when she was Batgirl, but Tim at the same time was a high school senior (and then dropped out to focus on Red Robin and Wayne Enterprises work).

Yes, but I'm pretty sure they said explicitly that Tim was 17 in Red Robin.

My first thought when I saw the clothes scene was... she's the first girl, and Bruce was not used to having a girl, so he screwed up the measurements and how to treat her, giving Steph old Tim and Dick's clothes when they have a different body type and therefore a different requirement. So the tone that I got was a new dad and a new daughter trying to figure stuff out.

There's something interesting about Tumblr psychology, where a lot of people gather at first because they want to avoid Annoying Things and form a Safe Space so they don't have to experience it again, but because they build their own rules that includes Signs Of Things They Should Avoid, the moment they saw those Signs, especially out of context since people don't upload the full story, it's immediately equated with The Worst

That's very much the read I took from it as well - Bruce miscalculating, especially given how not-clearly he was thinking at that time (as War Games shows).

It's one of the reasons I wanted to be involved in the conversation about Steph on Tumblr, because I think too much focus on the negatives forms a community around a character which screams negatively at creators, and makes them uninterested in touching her. I want writers who give Steph a legitimate try, which I think Wolfram did, to get good feedback, and not a lot of screaming. But I feel like it's a losing battle, and am very sad about it right now.

[Dataweaver]

I can understand if you were talking about Lady Death, Vampirella or Black Cat, but about this Stephanie?
Oh my God!

But, but… the seam along the side of her leg split open about half an inch, in two or three places! You could see skin!

If I'm not wrong during their first encounter it was suggested Stephanie was older than Tim and when she became Robin, he was at the college so…
I don't know, I don't wanna know!

Tim wasn't in college at the time; he was in a boarding school.

[Dataweaver]

Shout out to Stephanie showing up and being like "Oh no Tim Drake, you are not sticking with that costume."

She's still repping the N52/Eternal variant of the Spoiler costume featuring a bunch of the elements from the Reborn Batgirl costume, which looks fantastic. Tim's Drake costume ... ahhhh ... I don't hate it but like, it is odd. I like that it feels like "Jack Kirby Does Nightwing" but it still feels First Draft and hopefully gets tightened up regularly, for instance the same way that Capullo, Fabok and other artists continuously refined and made Jim Lee's harsh N52 Batman costume much better with every new drawing.

I saw a fan art version of it that made a single change which made all the difference: it replaced the little disk-like thing over his heart with a “D” done in the same stylized font as the “R” on his original Robin costume.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah, Steph was at university when she was Batgirl, but Tim at the same time was a high school senior (and then dropped out to focus on Red Robin and Wayne Enterprises work).

Tim never dropped out; he took a GED and graduated early.