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  1. #16
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Probably, yes. It was handled tastefully, and my biggest regret about it was that the story got cut short before Lewis could finish it. She was fast approaching the crisis point of that story arc and suddenly it was as if none of it had ever happened.
    Weird. That's twice she's had her storylines aborted then, since her solo book also ended abruptly due to New 52. Why was this Robin run cut short?
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Weird. That's twice she's had her storylines aborted then, since her solo book also ended abruptly due to New 52. Why was this Robin run cut short?
    Bill Willingham came on board with his Johnny Warlock story and the eventual setup for Stephanie's death in War Games.

    Or, put another way, Didio came along and said “no more Stephanie!”
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  3. #18
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Bill Willingham came on board with his Johnny Warlock story and the eventual setup for Stephanie's death in War Games.

    Or, put another way, Didio came along and said “no more Stephanie!”
    There's precious few interviews from that time that I can find. I think Willingham was hired because he was (and is) a pretty big name, so DC wanted to pump up the sales for Robin. He spent a fair amount of time giving Steph pretty decent characterization, so I don't think he really wanted to get rid of her, even apart from the interview he did about five years ago where he said he wanted to keep her once the fan reaction to her being Robin was clearly supportive.
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  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Yeah; Willingham didn't want to kill her. That's all Didio. From what I remember of the interviews, when Willingham first came onto the title, he was informed that Stephanie was going to be killed off. So he decided to arrange for her to get a big send-off: letting her become Robin was his idea. It's why my view of him isn't as negative as it once was — though his portrayal of Tim sucked (a topic for a different thread).
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  5. #20
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Yeah; Willingham didn't want to kill her. That's all Didio. From what I remember of the interviews, when Willingham first came onto the title, he was informed that Stephanie was going to be killed off. So he decided to arrange for her to get a big send-off: letting her become Robin was his idea. It's why my view of him isn't as negative as it once was — though his portrayal of Tim sucked (a topic for a different thread).
    I agree that his voices were often a bit off - but I honestly really like most of how he wrote Steph.

    Didio has claimed that Steph's death was decided before he came in as EIC - which I think means it was Bob Harras who targeted her. But Harras NEVER gives interviews, so it's almost impossible to tell.
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  6. #21
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Since DiDio's still in charge to this day, it doesn't matter who killed her off - even though she was brought back, he also later wiped out her history in the New 52 reboot (I never saw any reason why there can't be two or three Batgirls - there's three Flashes after all - they didn't need to retcon Steph and Cass to bring Barbara back to the mantle), so he's no supporter of her character.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Note that Wally West has been going through much the same sort of stuff as Stephanie did: in particular, a case could be made that the Flash War was Wally's “Stephanie as Robin” moment, where the writer knew that Bad Things were in store for the character and wanted to provide a last hurrah before the **** hit the fan.

    But that's also something for another thread.
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  8. #23
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Since DiDio's still in charge to this day, it doesn't matter who killed her off - even though she was brought back, he also later wiped out her history in the New 52 reboot (I never saw any reason why there can't be two or three Batgirls - there's three Flashes after all - they didn't need to retcon Steph and Cass to bring Barbara back to the mantle), so he's no supporter of her character.
    To be fair, though I think Didio still has way too much influence, he has changed jobs at least twice since War Games.

    And yes. I have restrained myself at two different conventions from accosting Didio and demanding to know why he hates Steph so much. (To clarify - I did NOT talk to him at all, because I didn't think it would be polite to do so.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Note that Wally West has been going through much the same sort of stuff as Stephanie did: in particular, a case could be made that the Flash War was Wally's “Stephanie as Robin” moment, where the writer knew that Bad Things were in store for the character and wanted to provide a last hurrah before the **** hit the fan.

    But that's also something for another thread.
    And Wally is also directly because of editorial, and I believe that Didio was mentioned as part of that editorial decision.

    I do wonder - how much influence does Steph's time as Robin, and her death in War Games, have in people's Steph fandom? Is it important at all? Does it not matter (because it all happened so long ago, and is no longer canon...though it sort of is, with Tec 980)? To me, I fell in love with Steph in War Games itself - her trying to prove herself to Batman really struck a huge chord with me - so her time as Robin and Batgirl are hugely important to my love of her. I am curious to know how she would have died if she hadn't become Robin - so much of what she does is tied to that experience.
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  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    At the time, I saw Stephanie primarily as Tim's girlfriend; so my view of her time as Robin was largely indifference; I had no doubt that it would be a temporary thing and that Tim would be Robin again soon enough. War Games outraged me, and I thought Stephanie was treated incredibly shabbily; but the main source of my outrage at the time was that Tim's supporting cast was being decimated. (See my related post on the Tim Drake Appreciation Thread.) I didn't start being a fan of Stephanie on her own terms until her Batgirl series.

    But once I did, I started seeing her time as Robin in a new light. It really ought to be back in continuity, and Stephanie ought to be recognized both as one of the Robins and as one of the Batgirls.

    I no longer want Tim to have a new solo book; I'd prefer something featuring The trio of Tim, Steph, and Cass, preferably with a title that removes the need to give any of them top billing over the others — sort of like how Gotham Sirens let us have a book featuring Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy without having to place any one of them in a more prominent role than the others.

    No idea what I'd call it, though.

    (In terms of how she would have died if she hasn't become Robin: I figure pretty much the same way — she decides that she wants to prove herself to Batman, puts the War Games in motion, and gets killed by the Black Mask. It would have made even less sense than War Games did already; but the crew taking over Batman at the time weren't particularly interested in doing what made sense: they had an agenda (including “kill off a bunch of extraneous characters, kick the Birds of Prey out of Gotham so Batman goes back to being a solo act, make Tim more intense, and set Cass up to no longer be Batgirl), and they were going to follow it whether it made sense or not.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-04-2020 at 07:55 PM.
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  10. #25
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    At the time, I saw Stephanie primarily as Tim's girlfriend; so my view of her time as Robin was largely indifference; I had no doubt that it would be a temporary thing and that Tim would be Robin again soon enough. War Games outraged me, and I thought Stephanie was treated incredibly shabbily; but the main source of my outrage at the time was that Tim's supporting cast was being decimated. (See my related post on the Tim Drake Appreciation Thread.) I didn't start being a fan of Stephanie on her own terms until her Batgirl series.

    But once I did, I started seeing her time as Robin in a new light. It really ought to be back in continuity, and Stephanie ought to be recognized both as one of the Robins and as one of the Batgirls.

    I no longer want Tim to have a new solo book; I'd prefer something featuring The trio of Tim, Steph, and Cass, preferably with a title that removes the need to give any of them top billing over the others — sort of like how Gotham Sirens let us have a book featuring Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy without having to place any one of them in a more prominent role than the others.

    No idea what I'd call it, though.

    (In terms of how she would have died if she hasn't become Robin: I figure pretty much the same way — she decides that she wants to prove herself to Batman, puts the War Games in motion, and gets killed by the Black Mask. It would have made even less sense than War Games did already; but the crew taking over Batman at the time weren't particularly interested in doing what made sense: they had an agenda (including “kill off a bunch of extraneous characters, kick the Birds of Prey out of Gotham so Batman goes back to being a solo act, make Tim more intense, and set Cass up to no longer be Batgirl), and they were going to follow it whether it made sense or not.
    Very cool - glad to hear the perspective of other people around at the time! I fell in love with/identified with Steph intensely in War Games, but since she was dead, I didn't really think it would be an ongoing fandom. She came back, I thought it was cool, but when she became Batgirl, that's when I really committed to her fandom.

    Because of this, her time as Robin and Batgirl are sort of like twin suns - they are the crux around which my understanding of Steph revolves. There's a HUGE reason why Tec 980 is one of the most important issue of all comics to me - because I didn't expect Tynion to respect her time as Robin as well as Batgirl, and he gave that to me. Beyond all hope, I got what I care about most back.

    I wouldn't mind Tim getting a new solo - I've always loved Steph as a supporting character for Tim, though I think she's perfectly capable of handling a solo. But I would love either a League of Batgirls with Babs, Steph, and Cass, or a new Batman Inc book with Steph, Tim, and Cass as key members, or a new Birds of Prey with the original three Birds mentoring Steph and Cass (and other younger girl heros). If you want it to be mostly Tim, Steph, and Cass, I'd call it Gotham Knights, the name Tim called The Team in Tynion's Tec run.
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    The reason why I'd rather have the trio book instead of either a solo for one of them (and any one of the three could hold a solo) or a team book that includes all three of them is that it's the way the three of them interact that I'm most a fan of. I kind of see them as a body, mind, and soul triplet: Cass represents the body (she even communicates physically); Tim represents the mind (though I'd focus less on him being a generic genius and now on him being a detective and problem solver); and Steph represents the soul (both in terms of her determination and in serving as the trio's heart and moral center). Go smaller than the three and you lose that dynamic; go larger than it, and it gets diluted.

    I could see calling them the Gotham Knights; but my gut instinct is that that title tends to imply a larger group.
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  12. #27
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    The reason why I'd rather have the trio book instead of either a solo for one of them (and any one of the three could hold a solo) or a team book that includes all three of them is that it's the way the three of them interact that I'm most a fan of. I kind of see them as a body, mind, and soul triplet: Cass represents the body (she even communicates physically); Tim represents the mind (though I'd focus less on him being a generic genius and now on him being a detective and problem solver); and Steph represents the soul (both in terms of her determination and in serving as the trio's heart and moral center). Go smaller than the three and you lose that dynamic; go larger than it, and it gets diluted.

    I could see calling them the Gotham Knights; but my gut instinct is that that title tends to imply a larger group.
    I don't know how much I personally see that dynamic of the trio. The only time we've had them interacting that directly is Convergence: Batgirl, and while I think that comic gets more hate than it deserves, it's also not the world's greatest example of any of the three characters. Not that I'd mind at all seeing a trio book with the three, but my priorities are elsewhere (obviously)
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  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I do wonder - how much influence does Steph's time as Robin, and her death in War Games, have in people's Steph fandom? Is it important at all? Does it not matter (because it all happened so long ago, and is no longer canon...though it sort of is, with Tec 980)? To me, I fell in love with Steph in War Games itself - her trying to prove herself to Batman really struck a huge chord with me - so her time as Robin and Batgirl are hugely important to my love of her. I am curious to know how she would have died if she hadn't become Robin - so much of what she does is tied to that experience.
    At the time I first heard about it people were at the height of bashing War Games for what it did to Steph (and Leslie) while at the same time a different group of people was at their loudest at saying Steph is never Robin. So for an outsider, both stories become a no-go. Even after Steph is acknowledged as Robin by the majority of fandom and DC themselves these days, knowing how DC felt about Steph at that time and the purpose of the story, also knowing how Batman is written in general in that era, I still don't really wanna read it.

    I'm still staying away from the Jerk Batman period, even in stories including characters I'm interested more than Steph like Dick and Jason.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    At the time I first heard about it people were at the height of bashing War Games for what it did to Steph (and Leslie) while at the same time a different group of people was at their loudest at saying Steph is never Robin. So for an outsider, both stories become a no-go. Even after Steph is acknowledged as Robin by the majority of fandom and DC themselves these days, knowing how DC felt about Steph at that time and the purpose of the story, also knowing how Batman is written in general in that era, I still don't really wanna read it.

    I'm still staying away from the Jerk Batman period, even in stories including characters I'm interested more than Steph like Dick and Jason.
    That's a fascinating experience, too. It's very interesting what people think of it now - I really think if Steph hadn't become Robin, no one would really remember it at all. It can be an incredibly brutal read, especially towards the end, but the leadup with Steph's Robin stuff is still very dear to me.

    Jerk Batman is sadly not just one period. There was a point, about 2003-2006ish, where it was dominant, but that's far from the only one.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  15. #30
    Mighty Member Katana500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That's a fascinating experience, too. It's very interesting what people think of it now - I really think if Steph hadn't become Robin, no one would really remember it at all. It can be an incredibly brutal read, especially towards the end, but the leadup with Steph's Robin stuff is still very dear to me.

    Jerk Batman is sadly not just one period. There was a point, about 2003-2006ish, where it was dominant, but that's far from the only one.
    Idk what DC was thinking. Making Bruce be a total utter tool for a few years was such a bad idea. I hate Jerk Batman makes him unlikable!

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