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  1. #346
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Wow a week already .

    I was going to offer a few more reactions to #1 and about the series in general, but will add them to my comments on #2 when I get to it soon.
    Feel free to comment on any part of the series to date! Also, I was a bit late posting the first week, and compensated by being a bit early to post the second, so it's more like 6.1 days.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #347
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Cute, a sequence of Barbara as Oracle/Batgirl, then Cass as Orphan/Batgirl, and finally Steph as Batgirl/Spoiler.

    There are also a few quick little cameos of faces with blonde hair but not really any way of knowing who those people are.

  4. #349
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I love the image.

  5. #350
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    For the Batgirl Reread, #2:

    Why does the line "I got better" ring a bell? Is that something that has been quoted a lot? It's a great line of dialog.

    Some things I wanted to comment on, that were more true in #1 than in #2:

    Steph throws herself into things in a reckless way, and seems to succeed (partially, at least) through sheer luck. The action is over-the-top, more imaginable for, say, a Spider-Gwen, than for a non-powered human. I enjoy it as kind of cartoon comedy.

    Examples:

    - Hurtling down towards the racing cars, bouncing off a trunk and landing on a roof.

    - Disarming a gun that is being cocked (or luckily misfires? it goes "click") by throwing a batarang just in time while her back is - it appears - half-turned.

    - Lucky that Gage takes a guy out with a baseball bat while she stands in her tough pose, oblivious to the guy behind her.

    - Either jumps or is thrown off the exploding building, yet somehow lands on her feet.

    Gage lands on his head but I guess he's fine? Actually everyone is fine. As in a cartoon.


    I have to ask what is going on with her mask in #1?

    I don't know how Cass's mask worked - was the mouth area stitched to the rest of the mask (which is how it looks), or was it supposed to be attached with a zipper so that it is removable?

    Maybe there are continuity errors in the script or art, but the chronology seems to be:

    Steph is in the full mask in the scene in the Western Quadrant, before the rocket goes off - but by the time she lands after the explosion, the bottom part of the mask is missing. Are we supposed to believe she removed it mid-air? Because even though the rest of the costume is gradually ripping apart, the mask itself wasn't ripped off by the explosion, because the full mask is intact at the race which happens later.

    At the race that starts the issue, Steph is in the full mask - and manually removes the lower part of it in the scene's last panel. (And that's the last we see of it.)

    I guess when it comes to Steph and masks, you never know what you're going to get.

  6. #351
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    […]
    I don't know how Cass's mask worked - was the mouth area stitched to the rest of the mask (which is how it looks), or was it supposed to be attached with a zipper so that it is removable?
    […]
    If I remember well, the Cass's mask came from No men's land and it was created by Huntress, because at a certain point of the story she decided to use the identity of Batgirl (later Batman forbidden her to continue to use that identity and she become again Huntress), but in origin that costume didn't have a cover for the mouth, it was added in a second time by Huntress herself sewing an additional piece of fabric on the mask (in fact if you look carefully the Cass's mask you can see the seam points) and Steph removed that piece of fabric.

  7. #352
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    For the Batgirl Reread, #2:

    Why does the line "I got better" ring a bell? Is that something that has been quoted a lot? It's a great line of dialog.

    Some things I wanted to comment on, that were more true in #1 than in #2:

    Steph throws herself into things in a reckless way, and seems to succeed (partially, at least) through sheer luck. The action is over-the-top, more imaginable for, say, a Spider-Gwen, than for a non-powered human. I enjoy it as kind of cartoon comedy.

    Examples:

    - Hurtling down towards the racing cars, bouncing off a trunk and landing on a roof.

    - Disarming a gun that is being cocked (or luckily misfires? it goes "click") by throwing a batarang just in time while her back is - it appears - half-turned.

    - Lucky that Gage takes a guy out with a baseball bat while she stands in her tough pose, oblivious to the guy behind her.

    - Either jumps or is thrown off the exploding building, yet somehow lands on her feet.

    Gage lands on his head but I guess he's fine? Actually everyone is fine. As in a cartoon.
    Awesome observations!

    "I got better" I believe is a Monty Python and the Holy Grail quote.

    Steph does tend to leap before she looks, but I think the implication is that she's developed enough skill at this point that she can win at this point, whereas in the early 2000s, when she was being trained by Cass, she would not have. There is a sort of superhero-cartoon quality - BQM has said he's very inspired by the Animated Series, so I think that's very appropriate.

    I think there are perhaps a few continuity errors - the first issue does seem a bit more rough in some areas, as I pointed out in my first week post, but I don't think it takes too much away from the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    If I remember well, the Cass's mask came from No men's land and it was created by Huntress, because at a certain point of the story she decided to use the identity of Batgirl (later Batman forbidden her to continue to use that identity and she become again Huntress), but in origin that costume didn't have a cover for the mouth, it was added in a second time by Huntress herself sewing an additional piece of fabric on the mask (in fact if you look carefully the Cass's mask you can see the seam points) and Steph removed that piece of fabric.
    My own take on Helena is that she used the Bat at the beginning of NML, but never tried to claim the identity of Batgirl or Batwoman - just the Bat. Batman took away that after she was unable to hold all of a mob by herself (which is just silly, but you know Batman sometimes). He gave the costume to Cassandra.

    Helena originally had a normal cowl with an open mouth, but when she got hit with spraypaint, she decided to go for full face coverage, and stitched an additional piece onto the cowl.

    Steph I think had the mouth covering ripped off during her fights with the Thrill gangs in the first issue.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    I have to ask what is going on with her mask in #1?

    I don't know how Cass's mask worked - was the mouth area stitched to the rest of the mask (which is how it looks), or was it supposed to be attached with a zipper so that it is removable?

    Maybe there are continuity errors in the script or art, but the chronology seems to be:

    Steph is in the full mask in the scene in the Western Quadrant, before the rocket goes off - but by the time she lands after the explosion, the bottom part of the mask is missing. Are we supposed to believe she removed it mid-air? Because even though the rest of the costume is gradually ripping apart, the mask itself wasn't ripped off by the explosion, because the full mask is intact at the race which happens later.

    At the race that starts the issue, Steph is in the full mask - and manually removes the lower part of it in the scene's last panel. (And that's the last we see of it.)

    I guess when it comes to Steph and masks, you never know what you're going to get.
    Okay, I reread issue #1, and I think here's my take on what happened with the face covering.

    Either 1) Steph was supposed to have ripped off the mouth covering at the end of that first fight, and the covering when she meets Detective Gage was a coloring error, OR 2) Steph was actually just taking off the whole cowl, which makes some sense, since the next shot of her is with her whole head uncovered, and the mouth covering actually came off in the explosion with Detective Gage.

    I read the Race and then the Explosion fights as actually happening in that order. I know the flashbacks make it a little difficult to piece together all of the action, but I think the opening fight at the Race does happen before the fight that ends with the Explosion and Gage.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  9. #354
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    […]
    My own take on Helena is that she used the Bat at the beginning of NML, but never tried to claim the identity of Batgirl or Batwoman - just the Bat. Batman took away that after she was unable to hold all of a mob by herself (which is just silly, but you know Batman sometimes). He gave the costume to Cassandra.

    Helena originally had a normal cowl with an open mouth, but when she got hit with spraypaint, she decided to go for full face coverage, and stitched an additional piece onto the cowl.

    Steph I think had the mouth covering ripped off during her fights with the Thrill gangs in the first issue.
    Well, I was summarizing the story of the costume, so it is possible I have written some imprecisions.
    About the mouth covering, actually I don't remember well: I started to read the first two issues of Batgirl, but I dropped them because before I want read her stories chronologically, so I will start with the most important stories with her which precede Batgirl; in order to have a better understanding of the character.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Well, I was summarizing the story of the costume, so it is possible I have written some imprecisions.
    About the mouth covering, actually I don't remember well: I started to read the first two issues of Batgirl, but I dropped them because before I want read her stories chronologically, so I will start with the most important stories with her which precede Batgirl; in order to have a better understanding of the character.
    The question of Helena Bertinelli as Batgirl is actually pretty hotly debated . So much so that back in 2008, Steph used to be classified as "Batgirl V" (or 5), counting Bette, Babs, Helena, Cass, then Steph. I personally do not count Helena as Batgirl, for a lot of reasons that aren't really germane to a Steph thread. Maybe if the Helena Bertinelli thread were more active, I would, but sadly, it's very ded. Helena is my second favorite character in comics, though!

    As for reading Steph Chronologically - that's a noble goal, though it's pretty tricky, as a lot of her stuff is only available easily through digital, and some of her stuff is not available at all unless you can find it by accident on the used market. I'd say the best thing to do would be read Steph's origin (Detective Comics #647-649), then read the third and fifth trades of Tim's Robin solo ("Solo" and "War of the Dragons"), skip to War Games to get her time as Robin, then read Robin #170-174, which was her return (also read the Robin/Spoiler Special if you can find it, though it's sadly not available digitally as far as I can tell ), then you're ready to go for Batgirl. There is, of course, a couple hundred other things to read, but they aren't as easily found or as pivotal to her story.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  11. #356
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    That is exactly what I will do: I think nobody is able to track down every single story with Steph, but it should be possibile track down and read the most important stories for her. I would suggest also "Batman; Gotham Knights" 37: it is an issue entirely focused on her relationship with Batman.

  12. #357
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    That is exactly what I will do: I think nobody is able to track down every single story with Steph, but it should be possibile track down and read the most important stories for her. I would suggest also "Batman; Gotham Knights" 37, to better understand her relationship with Batman.
    Well.

    I actually have tracked down every story of Steph at least digitally so I could update the wiki. And I know at least two people who have made it their goal to collect all of her comics, and I think they've succeeded.

    But those are very rare cases.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I am too lazy.
    Well, one day, I will become the publisher of DC, and they will say, "What do you want," and I will say, "Stephanie Brown Omnibus" and they will shout "Save us," and I will whisper, "Yes."
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  15. #360
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The question of Helena Bertinelli as Batgirl is actually pretty hotly debated . So much so that back in 2008, Steph used to be classified as "Batgirl V" (or 5), counting Bette, Babs, Helena, Cass, then Steph. I personally do not count Helena as Batgirl, for a lot of reasons that aren't really germane to a Steph thread. Maybe if the Helena Bertinelli thread were more active, I would, but sadly, it's very ded. Helena is my second favorite character in comics, though!
    Have you read Grant Morrison's JLA? Helena was on the team.
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