Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

Have you read Grant Morrison's JLA? Helena was on the team.

Seems like more of a question for Helena's thread.

[Digifiend]

That's fine. Only reason I asked is because if you haven't, you might want to check it out.

[ohfellow]

Okay, I reread issue #1, and I think here's my take on what happened with the face covering.

Either 1) Steph was supposed to have ripped off the mouth covering at the end of that first fight, and the covering when she meets Detective Gage was a coloring error, OR 2) Steph was actually just taking off the whole cowl, which makes some sense, since the next shot of her is with her whole head uncovered, and the mouth covering actually came off in the explosion with Detective Gage.

I read the Race and then the Explosion fights as actually happening in that order. I know the flashbacks make it a little difficult to piece together all of the action, but I think the opening fight at the Race does happen before the fight that ends with the Explosion and Gage.

I think you're right about the sequence. The only flashback is the scene with Cass. I wasn't following the story properly, and for some reason in my mind decided it was the morning scene that follows the Race that was "Three weeks ago."

The book cover does show the mouth covering has been torn off, leaving stitches showing.

Still, there are problems:

At the end of the race, Steph first removes the mouth cover - she's actually shown in the process of removing it or tearing it off with her left hand. Then she has the full cowl off in the splash page reveal of who she is (and has moved the mask to her right hand).

The full mask is then back, drawn in 2 panels in the Thrill scene - not just colored, but the stitches are clearly drawn. That's why I wondered if it could be removed and reattached via a zipper, even though it did always looked stitched to me.

However, though the stitches are there, the lips are clearly drawn in the second of those 2 panels! Eh what? The lips would not be visible like that under the cover.

The cover is completely gone when Steph lands after the rocket explodes. Perhaps torn off by the explosion. By then the costume is pretty torn up, and the next morning Steph wonders if she should sign up for a sewing class.

Here's a theory: Maybe she's already been trying to sew the mask back together off-panel, and did so between the Race and the Thrill.

So: first she tore the cover off herself, perhaps not knowing how else to remove the cowl; then stitched the mask back together off-panel but did a bad job (so it was too tight and the lips showed through); and then the badly re-attached mask tore off during the explosion. She then thinks she needs a sewing class.

Makes sense - she also never washed the costume! Costuming is not one of her strengths.

As you say, the first issue is kind of rough!

[ohfellow]

Or, another theory: BQM's script described that, just before the big splash reveal with the cowl completely off, there should be a panel at the bottom of the prior page where she's taken the cowl half off - making that a moment of drama before the big reveal. But Garbett drew that moment by having Steph tear the mouth cover off. Not likely what BQM meant, and Garbett's artistic choice has caused me years of unrelenting stress!

Or yet another: BQM mistakenly thought the cover was easily removed and reattached, so he wrote it exactly this way. And Garbett did his best to honor the script but also stay true to the costume, so he drew it with stitches, but followed the script. Leading to a mask that violates all known laws of physics and has confused generations of readers.

Well, at the quantum level, matter and energy both exist and do not exist, or their mass or position can be measured but not both at the same time. And let's not forget, light is both a particle and a wave. So at those levels, Steph's mask probably does obey the laws of nature.

[millernumber1]

I think you're right about the sequence. The only flashback is the scene with Cass. I wasn't following the story properly, and for some reason in my mind decided it was the morning scene that follows the Race that was "Three weeks ago."

The book cover does show the mouth covering has been torn off, leaving stitches showing.

Still, there are problems:

At the end of the race, Steph first removes the mouth cover - she's actually shown in the process of removing it or tearing it off with her left hand. Then she has the full cowl off in the splash page reveal of who she is (and has moved the mask to her right hand).

The full mask is then back, drawn in 2 panels in the Thrill scene - not just colored, but the stitches are clearly drawn. That's why I wondered if it could be removed and reattached via a zipper, even though it did always looked stitched to me.

However, though the stitches are there, the lips are clearly drawn in the second of those 2 panels! Eh what? The lips would not be visible like that under the cover.

The cover is completely gone when Steph lands after the rocket explodes. Perhaps torn off by the explosion. By then the costume is pretty torn up, and the next morning Steph wonders if she should sign up for a sewing class.

Here's a theory: Maybe she's already been trying to sew the mask back together off-panel, and did so between the Race and the Thrill.

So: first she tore the cover off herself, perhaps not knowing how else to remove the cowl; then stitched the mask back together off-panel but did a bad job (so it was too tight and the lips showed through); and then the badly re-attached mask tore off during the explosion. She then thinks she needs a sewing class.

Makes sense - she also never washed the costume! Costuming is not one of her strengths.

As you say, the first issue is kind of rough!

It is kind of rough - but the heart of the series is definitely there!

I think that the mouth removal after the race is clumsy drawing of taking off the entire cowl. (There's also the suggestion I made previously, that the mouth covering being back during the explosion scene was just a coloring error). The stiches still being there makes sense to me, at least a little, showing the frayed nature of the suit. As for the lips, though - that's the way Cass was very frequently drawn - being able to see the lips through the mouth covering, so I don't have a problem with it. (At least, that's my memory of how it worked).

Costuming not being one of her strengths is a bit of a continuity slip, since she made both her Spoiler costume and her first Robin costume (though the Robin costume was a bit...homemade looking ). But I think it works in terms of her needing the new suit.

[millernumber1]

Welcome to the Batgirl: Stephanie Brown reread, Week 3! (Schedule starts here: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4916669) Today, we're on the third issue, Batgirl #3, "Batgirl Rising: Point of New Origin, part 3", written by Bryan Q. Miller, drawn by Lee Garbett, inked by Trevor Scott with assists from Sandra Hope, colored by Guy Major.

Batgirl #3 001.jpg

This issue was my pick for the first issue that you should collect in an anthology of best Batgirl stories, because it represents the crystallization of Steph as Batgirl. It’s not a standalone, which sadly works against it in terms of being anthologized, but it’s such a beautiful statement of history, legacy, and character. From Steph’s beautiful opening monologue about “seeing something through”, to her speech to Scarecrow about staying for a second chance, and being able to face herself just after the fear-gas inspired version of herself beat her savagely, it’s just so powerfully thematic that I have a huge amount of emotion for the last five pages. This issue is where I think the series really got its stride, and it never looked back.

Lee Garbett’s art also really shines here, with Batgirl’s fight against Scarecrow incredibly memorable, from the size difference of Steph’s entrance, to the pain as she takes Scarecrow’s brutal beating, to the visceral snap of his leg as she comes back to win. And then the loveliness of Babs and Steph swearing the oath together, and the first appearance of Steph’s Batgirl suit. It’s all just a visual delight.

What moments, either writing or art, stood out to you? Do you think this issue could stand on its own in an anthology like the Batgirl: A Celebration of 50 Years, or would the fact that it’s the finale of a three-part arc hold it back too much?

[Digifiend]

"third issue, Batgirl #2"?

That swearing the oath scene, of course, was a reference to when Bruce first recruited Dick, though they did put their own spin on it.

Bruce and Dick made a promise to one another on this very spot, a long time ago. He gave Dick the opportunity to leave his old life behind, a chance to make sure justice was served... Dick didn't take the easy way out. He didn't let his pain win -- I know you've already made that choice. This oath isn't about you... it's about me. I became Batgirl on my own. But the world is different now than it was then. And I'm in this chair as proof. "I pledge to you, Stephanie Brown -- my guidance. Support. For as long as you want it. When you go out at night, you won't be alone.

[millernumber1]

"third issue, Batgirl #2"?

That swearing the oath scene, of course, was a reference to when Bruce first recruited Dick, though they did put their own spin on it.

Haha, my bad.

The oath is a really moving scene - full of history, emotion, and promise, just as any good ceremony should be!

[sunofdarkchild]

To be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of BQM's first 3 issues. There are plenty of good scenes and moments, but the dialogue with Barbara and the final confrontation with Scarecrow really didn't do it for me. Her whole speech to Scarecrow seemed like cliched nonsense to me and I never got why it made Barbara come around to her. I find the next 21 issues to be a big improvement.

I also never got why BQM had her go on about not being able to sew when we'd previously seen her sewing her Spoiler costume.

[millernumber1]

To be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of BQM's first 3 issues. There are plenty of good scenes and moments, but the dialogue with Barbara and the final confrontation with Scarecrow really didn't do it for me. Her whole speech to Scarecrow seemed like cliched nonsense to me and I never got why it made Barbara come around to her. I find the next 21 issues to be a big improvement.

I also never got why BQM had her go on about not being able to sew when we'd previously seen her sewing her Spoiler costume.

Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy these issues. Hopefully the next ones will be most appreciated

ohfollow and I did both bring up the sewing thing - it doesn't really bother me that much, though I do prefer a Steph who has lots of skills than one who doesn't.

[millernumber1]

Tom King responded to me on DCUniverse! I asked "the question I asked at all the cons I saw you at: will you put Stephanie Brown in some more comics, please? "
His response: "I was actually just talking to the Bat office about Stephanie. I can make no promises, but I can say that the office knows how much she deserves a spotlight and I passed along the passion I always see for her. Her Batgirl book was so good. Got to read that again."

And other people chimed in with how good her Batgirl run was!

[ohfellow]

For the Batgirl Reread, #3:

Mixed feelings about this one.

The good:

• The striking image of the issue is Scarecrow looming above the relatively tiny Steph.

• Steph crouching on the gargoyle.

• Her high kick that takes out Scarecrow.

• Her victory over the self-doubts manifested in her hallucinatons.

• Her resolve using her free will to set doubts aside and persevere as Batgirl.

The not-so good:

A lot of fuzzy plot points, at least to me. Almost too many to keep track of.

I find so much of the plot doesn't add up that the first 2 issues are actually irrelevant - so yeah, this issue could sort of stand alone.

I don't even think the callbacks to the philosophy class work right.

Steph has free will and resolves to stay and continue the fight, not quit.

But the teacher did not ask her, as she says in this issue, why people run when things get tough. He actually asked the opposite: why do people stay in bad situations? And in fact, the implication is that the hard and courageous thing to do, when you are in with the wrong crowd in a bad part of town, is TO LEAVE. Then shortly after in this issue, Steph says you stay for a second chance. No, in the analogy you should LEAVE to get that second chance. So I just don't see where BQM is trying to take this metaphor. Or actually, I do think I get the thing BQM was aiming at, but in execution he got it all messed up.

I'll get into all the plot points that I find disconnected only if anyone really wants me to.

My primary impression is that BQM had certain emotional beats he wanted to hit, and certain moments of action, and did so, where individual scenes definitely worked.

It's the connective tissue between scenes, how the plot moved from A to B to C, that just was sloppy and full of holes.

Best for me not to think too much and just roll with it. It's more about Steph's courage and determination, even if the plot is not comprehensible (to me).

[millernumber1]

For the Batgirl Reread, #3:

Mixed feelings about this one.

The good:

• The striking image of the issue is Scarecrow looming above the relatively tiny Steph.

• Steph crouching on the gargoyle.

• Her high kick that takes out Scarecrow.

• Her victory over the self-doubts manifested in her hallucinatons.

• Her resolve using her free will to set doubts aside and persevere as Batgirl.

The not-so good:

A lot of fuzzy plot points, at least to me. Almost too many to keep track of.

I find so much of the plot doesn't add up that the first 2 issues are actually irrelevant - so yeah, this issue could sort of stand alone.

I don't even think the callbacks to the philosophy class work right.

Steph has free will and resolves to stay and continue the fight, not quit.

But the teacher did not ask her, as she says in this issue, why people run when things get tough. He actually asked the opposite: why do people stay in bad situations? And in fact, the implication is that the hard and courageous thing to do, when you are in with the wrong crowd in a bad part of town, is TO LEAVE. Then shortly after in this issue, Steph says you stay for a second chance. No, in the analogy you should LEAVE to get that second chance. So I just don't see where BQM is trying to take this metaphor. Or actually, I do think I get the thing BQM was aiming at, but in execution he got it all messed up.

I'll get into all the plot points that I find disconnected only if anyone really wants me to.

My primary impression is that BQM had certain emotional beats he wanted to hit, and certain moments of action, and did so, where individual scenes definitely worked.

It's the connective tissue between scenes, how the plot moved from A to B to C, that just was sloppy and full of holes.

Best for me not to think too much and just roll with it. It's more about Steph's courage and determination, even if the plot is not comprehensible (to me).

Maybe you could elaborate a bit for me about the plot points, as I thought the plot at least for issues 2 and 3 made sense. And I think that BQM started to be better at connecting the pieces later - though I'd say more in the second year. There's probably a reason that this run is known for its one-shots - because those are the best crafted, while the longer arcs are a bit less so. Still an incredibly well done book, with a lot of craft pieces - catchphrases, thematic throughlines - that are more than just throwaway effects.

With regards to the philosophy class callback, I thought it was a blending of the thoughts of Steph seeking redemption with the ideas of free will and determinism, playing with fighting against chemical determinism of Thrill. You're right that the teacher didn't ask "why don't you leave", but given that Steph has just been massively drugged and injured, I think she gets her point across pretty well. I think it's a simulation of a normal human thought process - which sadly does not take everything perfectly remembered unless you're Babs.

Steph vs. Scarecrow is such a great image. Really sticks in the memory. That whole conflict I think is a real high point.

[ohfellow]

Maybe you could elaborate a bit for me about the plot points, as I thought the plot at least for issues 2 and 3 made sense.

Was afraid somebody would ask .

At this point maybe one or two questions.

Unclear to me how the police car is intercepted in #2 - in the red smoke MAYBE it's the van that blocks the way. In which case the van would have had to have a police scanner so the rest of the gang wold have known when Steve was in the ER, and when he was being transported to jail, and along what route. But if the van was just lying in wait - why wouldn't Barbara, who was sat-tracking it, not have already sent the police after it?

But it actually looks more like a manhole explodes in front of the police car. If the van wasn't involved, not sure what exactly blew up or how it was engineered, and what Steph followed back to HQ.

Either way, Steph manages to track something or someone back to HQ before Barbara can. Assuming she was able to keep up with her grappling lines, I guess Steph would know when it had arrived at its destination before Barbara would have been able to tell that.

It is an exciting story even if I can't piece it all together. What we're supposed to take away is that Steph helps out at the police car incident, finds Scarecrow's hideaway independently of Barbara's tracking, and goes in solo against Barbara's advice. Exactly how it all works out is left to the imagination, or I'm just missing something. Thinking too hard. (Or not hard enough.)

Your synopses at TBU are always spot on, so maybe you can nail this one too.

[millernumber1]

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/ar...ephanie-brown/

This is SUPER cool! Jim Lee drew a really pretty Steph for us! Seeing as his stuff is going for usually around $5000, and his Huntress is currently at $11,000, I doubt I'll be able to afford it, but man, it's pretty!