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  1. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The last year indeed was very bad. Though I don't know that they've explicitly aged Babs up. I feel like they are still mostly acting like she's around 21.

    I like the Bard romance in principle, because I have great affection for Bard from the Dixon BOP days, but this is a different Bard, and Castellucci is not writing him (or anyone) well.

    That being said, I dunno how closely connected this is to Steph. It certainly could lead into Steph, with the Batgirls backup forthcoming, but nothing clear yet.



    I would not be opposed to Babs being close to 30 again, especially if it means she can mentor Steph and Cass again. However, I don't really see a sign that Babs IS aged up right now.

    Scott was a better writer in terms of character, though I think her plotting was a problem (though given what we know about editorial demanding rewrites, that could very well be part of the problem).
    Simone- the only person who has made me like Babsgirl
    Stewart/Fletcher- hate their run with a passion
    Larson- mediocre but tolerable
    Scott- mediocre probably due to editorial
    Castellucci- awful
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

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  2. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The last year indeed was very bad. Though I don't know that they've explicitly aged Babs up. I feel like they are still mostly acting like she's around 21.

    I like the Bard romance in principle, because I have great affection for Bard from the Dixon BOP days, but this is a different Bard, and Castellucci is not writing him (or anyone) well.

    That being said, I dunno how closely connected this is to Steph. It certainly could lead into Steph, with the Batgirls backup forthcoming, but nothing clear yet.

    I would not be opposed to Babs being close to 30 again, especially if it means she can mentor Steph and Cass again. However, I don't really see a sign that Babs IS aged up right now.

    Scott was a better writer in terms of character, though I think her plotting was a problem (though given what we know about editorial demanding rewrites, that could very well be part of the problem).
    I think in-universe she's still supposed to be early 20's but in terms of actual writing I feel like early Burnside and Larson wrote her more 18-19 while Scott and even Castelluci writes her more mid-to-late 20's.

  3. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The last year indeed was very bad. Though I don't know that they've explicitly aged Babs up. I feel like they are still mostly acting like she's around 21.

    I like the Bard romance in principle, because I have great affection for Bard from the Dixon BOP days, but this is a different Bard, and Castellucci is not writing him (or anyone) well.
    Was there a "mystery" where he was walking without the cane? That's the least of the problems. And I agree with just about everyone, the Bard plot was the worst of it. I hated Barbara's inner monologues about him - the whole thing made me cringe. All the musings about "He hates the real me." I don't know about their history, but I knew enough here that I just wanted to scream "STOP THIS! He hates you; you hate him. He's involved with political dirty tricks and bomb threats!" So this is the guy she is a-flutter about? This never felt like to me like it was about forgiveness - I felt like I was seeing a woman with the low self-esteem that would lead her to pursue a guy who hated her true self.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I would not be opposed to Babs being close to 30 again, especially if it means she can mentor Steph and Cass again. However, I don't really see a sign that Babs IS aged up right now.
    Pelletier drew an especially mature-looking Barbara. Perhaps an overcompensation after Burnside. But by the time of Rodriguez (who drew the most interesting recent work on the book), Barbara looked just the right age to me. Not a kid, not a teenager, not 38. Late twenties perhaps. But in general I didn't like Pelletier's depiction of Barbara. I know he's a good artist and it seemed most people did like his run on Batgirl, so I'm in the minority.

    I never got over the peculiar cover of Batgirl #27 - the debut of Barbara's new costume, where Murphy drew Barbara's head floating over her left shoulder, certainly (as I see it) detached from her neck. Anatomically bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Scott was a better writer in terms of character, though I think her plotting was a problem (though given what we know about editorial demanding rewrites, that could very well be part of the problem).
    I really liked what may be the very first story she wrote for her run - in the Batgirl #25 expanded issue, the story of Batgirl visiting the church. It had a depth to it.

    But the Art of the Crime started in that same issue, and the plot seemed to get hijacked - so probably that was editorial interference. All of a sudden that story was about - Wyrm? The wireless something-or-other that started off in Nightwing.

    Getting back to the topic of Stephanie Brown, I believe she was pulled in to the last Batgirl and the Birds of Prey near the end, as part of a larger team.

    I'd rather see Barbara on a team with Steph and Cass than acting solely as Oracle. Is it necessary to go full circle? I don't want Barbara's Batgirl to retire.

  4. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Was there a "mystery" where he was walking without the cane? That's the least of the problems. And I agree with just about everyone, the Bard plot was the worst of it. I hated Barbara's inner monologues about him - the whole thing made me cringe. All the musings about "He hates the real me." I don't know about their history, but I knew enough here that I just wanted to scream "STOP THIS! He hates you; you hate him. He's involved with political dirty tricks and bomb threats!" So this is the guy she is a-flutter about? This never felt like to me like it was about forgiveness - I felt like I was seeing a woman with the low self-esteem that would lead her to pursue a guy who hated her true self.



    Pelletier drew an especially mature-looking Barbara. Perhaps an overcompensation after Burnside. But by the time of Rodriguez (who drew the most interesting recent work on the book), Barbara looked just the right age to me. Not a kid, not a teenager, not 38. Late twenties perhaps. But in general I didn't like Pelletier's depiction of Barbara. I know he's a good artist and it seemed most people did like his run on Batgirl, so I'm in the minority.

    I never got over the peculiar cover of Batgirl #27 - the debut of Barbara's new costume, where Murphy drew Barbara's head floating over her left shoulder, certainly (as I see it) detached from her neck. Anatomically bizarre.



    I really liked what may be the very first story she wrote for her run - in the Batgirl #25 expanded issue, the story of Batgirl visiting the church. It had a depth to it.

    But the Art of the Crime started in that same issue, and the plot seemed to get hijacked - so probably that was editorial interference. All of a sudden that story was about - Wyrm? The wireless something-or-other that started off in Nightwing.

    Getting back to the topic of Stephanie Brown, I believe she was pulled in to the last Batgirl and the Birds of Prey near the end, as part of a larger team.

    I'd rather see Barbara on a team with Steph and Cass than acting solely as Oracle. Is it necessary to go full circle? I don't want Barbara's Batgirl to retire.
    I just want all the Batgirls to be a team. It's rescue Bette and appease Babs, Cass, and Steph fans
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

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  5. #1220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think in-universe she's still supposed to be early 20's but in terms of actual writing I feel like early Burnside and Larson wrote her more 18-19 while Scott and even Castelluci writes her more mid-to-late 20's.
    She was explicitly stated to be 21 in the Burnside era. She aged up when she changed her costume to her current one. Dick, who's meant to be the exact same age give or take a few months, was aged up at around the same time, when he was shot - he mentioned losing almost two decades of memories, which would mean he'd have to be in his late 20s, which means so is Barbara.
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  6. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Pelletier drew an especially mature-looking Barbara. Perhaps an overcompensation after Burnside. But by the time of Rodriguez (who drew the most interesting recent work on the book), Barbara looked just the right age to me. Not a kid, not a teenager, not 38. Late twenties perhaps. But in general I didn't like Pelletier's depiction of Barbara. I know he's a good artist and it seemed most people did like his run on Batgirl, so I'm in the minority.

    I never got over the peculiar cover of Batgirl #27 - the debut of Barbara's new costume, where Murphy drew Barbara's head floating over her left shoulder, certainly (as I see it) detached from her neck. Anatomically bizarre.
    For me Rodriguez had the weakest art in the book, especially compared to Pelletier, but that's just my take.

  7. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think in-universe she's still supposed to be early 20's but in terms of actual writing I feel like early Burnside and Larson wrote her more 18-19 while Scott and even Castelluci writes her more mid-to-late 20's.
    Sure, but that doesn't actually pin down an age like Burnside did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    Simone- the only person who has made me like Babsgirl
    Stewart/Fletcher- hate their run with a passion
    Larson- mediocre but tolerable
    Scott- mediocre probably due to editorial
    Castellucci- awful
    Simone - really, really wretched, reactive, incompetent Babs misery plots, with art I really disliked.
    Burnside - first half of the run was so shallow, second half still shallow, but had Steph, and Babs grew up a bit, so I liked it better (plus it actually did a nice job tying into the JimBats status quo and wrapping up Valentine's Catwoman threads).
    Larson - started strong, ended so weak with so many "bad boyfriend" plotlines.
    Scott - editorial incompetence
    Castellucci - one of the worst, down there with Simone for me.

    Only Burnside featured Steph, so it's the only one I actually have a chunk of issues from.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Pelletier drew an especially mature-looking Barbara. Perhaps an overcompensation after Burnside. But by the time of Rodriguez (who drew the most interesting recent work on the book), Barbara looked just the right age to me. Not a kid, not a teenager, not 38. Late twenties perhaps. But in general I didn't like Pelletier's depiction of Barbara. I know he's a good artist and it seemed most people did like his run on Batgirl, so I'm in the minority.

    Getting back to the topic of Stephanie Brown, I believe she was pulled in to the last Batgirl and the Birds of Prey near the end, as part of a larger team.

    I'd rather see Barbara on a team with Steph and Cass than acting solely as Oracle. Is it necessary to go full circle? I don't want Barbara's Batgirl to retire.
    I like Pelletier reasonably well, but I think the favorite thing I've seen him on is his digital first Superman stuff with Venditti recently. His Batgirl stuff was...fine. He drew Steph in Batman and Robin Eternal saying "Kiss me, sexy Batman", so I have some affection for his art

    Steph did show up as part of the big Manslaughter arc in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey, but she sadly wasn't a regular part of the run. As I mentioned above, Burnside is the only Babsgirl run to feature her significantly.

    I wouldn't mind Babs going fulltime Oracle, but I think it would be too divisive for most of the fanbase, and I want to heal the fanbase, not further divide it. So I think a team of Batgirls with Babs mentoring Steph and Cass is the way to go. I don't realistically see them bringing Bette out of West Point right now - I think they SHOULD do something with her, but they've dropped that ball so hard I don't know how they can pick it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    She was explicitly stated to be 21 in the Burnside era. She aged up when she changed her costume to her current one. Dick, who's meant to be the exact same age give or take a few months, was aged up at around the same time, when he was shot - he mentioned losing almost two decades of memories, which would mean he'd have to be in his late 20s, which means so is Barbara.
    I think the implication that she's aged up is only an implication. They're going to ignore it if and when they have someone confirm her age explicitly again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    For me Rodriguez had the weakest art in the book, especially compared to Pelletier, but that's just my take.
    Rodriguez's Joker issue was actually pretty good, but it wasn't particularly spectacular. Lupacchino, Sauvage, and Aneke's art for the final issue was nice enough, but none of it was lifted by the writing. I hope against hope Ayala and Fitzmartin can bring the Batgirl IP back up for whatever they have planned in March, and hopefully Tynion does something interesting with the trio in Batgirl.
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  8. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Simone - really, really wretched, reactive, incompetent Babs misery plots, with art I really disliked.
    Burnside - first half of the run was so shallow, second half still shallow, but had Steph, and Babs grew up a bit, so I liked it better (plus it actually did a nice job tying into the JimBats status quo and wrapping up Valentine's Catwoman threads).
    Larson - started strong, ended so weak with so many "bad boyfriend" plotlines.
    Scott - editorial incompetence
    Castellucci - one of the worst, down there with Simone for me.
    I like Simone's Babs but it's got nothing on Batgirl 2000 and Batgirl 2009,
    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Only Burnside featured Steph, so it's the only one I actually have a chunk of issues from.
    Only issues of Burnside I'll actually reread

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I like Pelletier reasonably well, but I think the favorite thing I've seen him on is his digital first Superman stuff with Venditti recently. His Batgirl stuff was...fine. He drew Steph in Batman and Robin Eternal saying "Kiss me, sexy Batman", so I have some affection for his art
    Yuck! I didn't like that line at all, his arts good though
    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Steph did show up as part of the big Manslaughter arc in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey, but she sadly wasn't a regular part of the run. As I mentioned above, Burnside is the only Babsgirl run to feature her significantly.
    she should be a regular
    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I wouldn't mind Babs going fulltime Oracle, but I think it would be too divisive for most of the fanbase, and I want to heal the fanbase, not further divide it. So I think a team of Batgirls with Babs mentoring Steph and Cass is the way to go. I don't realistically see them bringing Bette out of West Point right now - I think they SHOULD do something with her, but they've dropped that ball so hard I don't know how they can pick it up.
    I want her rescued so bad! And i fully blame Tynion for that one, he's the one who did it. Nobody seems to want to use Bette, and I thought maybe Bennett would because Bombshells but nope!

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think the implication that she's aged up is only an implication. They're going to ignore it if and when they have someone confirm her age explicitly again.
    make her late twenties
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

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  9. #1224
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    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

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  10. #1225
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    Final poll results!

    https://twitter.com/ibmmiller/status...71361375457282

    44 total votes:
    11 for Full Face Mask
    24 for Ninja Filtration Half Mask
    2 for Domino Mask
    7 for Cowl

    A lot of comments about how Steph's mask is like a face mask for disease prevention this year, which I think is a bit...irrelevant to her long term design, so I'm not sure how much that swung the vote.

    But still, well over double the number of people voting for her Ninja mask, which makes me think that the dominance of promotion with the half mask at key times - Batman Eternal and Rebirth Tec - have been pretty important in the fandom.
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  11. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Final poll results!

    https://twitter.com/ibmmiller/status...71361375457282

    44 total votes:
    11 for Full Face Mask
    24 for Ninja Filtration Half Mask
    2 for Domino Mask
    7 for Cowl

    A lot of comments about how Steph's mask is like a face mask for disease prevention this year, which I think is a bit...irrelevant to her long term design, so I'm not sure how much that swung the vote.

    But still, well over double the number of people voting for her Ninja mask, which makes me think that the dominance of promotion with the half mask at key times - Batman Eternal and Rebirth Tec - have been pretty important in the fandom.
    huh interesting results
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  12. #1227
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    My attempts at multi-quoting have failed, but some have responded to my preference for Rodriguez's work, so I'd like to mention a few things I really enjoyed.

    He had a couple of tough scripts to work with - the fight with Joker indoors; and the death of James Jr. That can affect how one looks at his work. And he only had 3 issues to make an impression.

    I'm just impressed by style, when someone does something different.

    I found Pelletier conventional and dull, and Carmine Di Giandomenico unbearable to look at - his work looks, to me, like barely developed scratchy thumbnails. But that's how he draws everything, and I guess he has his fans. It's almost impossible to pick out some of the action he drew - some of the Liquid Metal action scenes were incomprehensible.

    In #49, Rodriguez throws in a sponge effect for shadows in many, many panels. Half the issue takes place in the rain, which he realizes beautifully, with interesting water splatter effects. Mixed in throughout are very interesting-looking buildings, and a sponge effect in the shadows. Look at the swirling puddles, spongey smudges and blue droplets on her umbrella, in a small panel looking down from above on Gordon and Babs. It's just gorgeous. (The panel where he asks "Was that Jason Bard?" and she answers "He's my coworker.") Or the final 4 panels on the same page, with white spherical globs, ending in Barbara fully silhouetted with droplets of black spray all around them, white mists at their feet.

    Then, the very cool simulations in the clocktower.

    The awful montage at the end when Jason jumps. Ignoring the content, which he is not responsible for, it's just got all of these effects - rain, buildings, sponge-work...

    OK, that is just #49.

    Skipping back to #47, he makes you really see and feel the shabby, dilapidated quality of the apartment Barbara had been forced to move to when she lost her company and her money. The peeling paint, the unmade bed, the cold leftovers. No art on the walls. (He is drawing Barbara, actually, as a very depressed person. Still - you feel it.)

    He employs many of the same effects in this issue, but the subject matter is distressing and he's forced to draw the battle with the Joker....

    I don't love the way he draws highly stylized noses, but they really aren't different from Murphyverse noses, so if you like one, you have to like the other.

    Anyway - one thing Rodriguez's art is NOT is dull or conventional. To me, it's exciting - there's a lot to marvel at in every panel.

    I'm looking at this independently of the vile stories he was asked to draw. I'd say after 3 months straight of working on this book, he might have needed a vacation or a psychologist to right himself emotionally.

    It might have been easier to feel what Barbara is going through in #50 if it was drawn with this intensity. So much of the script for the main story made no sense whatsoever, at least at face value (that is, ignoring the meta story Castellucci was telling about how DC treats the Batgirl book) - Babs forgives Bard but is ice cold to Dick? Isn't that backwards? - but might have made more sense if it was drawn more in Rodriguez's style, rather than Lupacchino's.

    Bellaire contributes a lot, of course. I think they worked very, very well together.

    He was just getting going when his fill-in run was over.

  13. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Final poll results!

    https://twitter.com/ibmmiller/status...71361375457282

    44 total votes:
    11 for Full Face Mask
    24 for Ninja Filtration Half Mask
    2 for Domino Mask
    7 for Cowl

    A lot of comments about how Steph's mask is like a face mask for disease prevention this year, which I think is a bit...irrelevant to her long term design, so I'm not sure how much that swung the vote.

    But still, well over double the number of people voting for her Ninja mask, which makes me think that the dominance of promotion with the half mask at key times - Batman Eternal and Rebirth Tec - have been pretty important in the fandom.
    I wonder if there is some recency bias because the ninja mask has practically been her modern mask since the New 52, even when she's gone back to the full mask at different times. I sometimes feel that way about the popularity of the Burnside costume.
    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    My attempts at multi-quoting have failed, but some have responded to my preference for Rodriguez's work, so I'd like to mention a few things I really enjoyed.

    He had a couple of tough scripts to work with - the fight with Joker indoors; and the death of James Jr. That can affect how one looks at his work. And he only had 3 issues to make an impression.

    I'm just impressed by style, when someone does something different.

    I found Pelletier conventional and dull, and Carmine Di Giandomenico unbearable to look at - his work looks, to me, like barely developed scratchy thumbnails. But that's how he draws everything, and I guess he has his fans. It's almost impossible to pick out some of the action he drew - some of the Liquid Metal action scenes were incomprehensible.

    In #49, Rodriguez throws in a sponge effect for shadows in many, many panels. Half the issue takes place in the rain, which he realizes beautifully, with interesting water splatter effects. Mixed in throughout are very interesting-looking buildings, and a sponge effect in the shadows. Look at the swirling puddles, spongey smudges and blue droplets on her umbrella, in a small panel looking down from above on Gordon and Babs. It's just gorgeous. (The panel where he asks "Was that Jason Bard?" and she answers "He's my coworker.") Or the final 4 panels on the same page, with white spherical globs, ending in Barbara fully silhouetted with droplets of black spray all around them, white mists at their feet.

    Then, the very cool simulations in the clocktower.

    The awful montage at the end when Jason jumps. Ignoring the content, which he is not responsible for, it's just got all of these effects - rain, buildings, sponge-work...

    OK, that is just #49.

    Skipping back to #47, he makes you really see and feel the shabby, dilapidated quality of the apartment Barbara had been forced to move to when she lost her company and her money. The peeling paint, the unmade bed, the cold leftovers. No art on the walls. (He is drawing Barbara, actually, as a very depressed person. Still - you feel it.)

    He employs many of the same effects in this issue, but the subject matter is distressing and he's forced to draw the battle with the Joker....

    I don't love the way he draws highly stylized noses, but they really aren't different from Murphyverse noses, so if you like one, you have to like the other.

    Anyway - one thing Rodriguez's art is NOT is dull or conventional. To me, it's exciting - there's a lot to marvel at in every panel.

    I'm looking at this independently of the vile stories he was asked to draw. I'd say after 3 months straight of working on this book, he might have needed a vacation or a psychologist to right himself emotionally.

    It might have been easier to feel what Barbara is going through in #50 if it was drawn with this intensity. So much of the script for the main story made no sense whatsoever, at least at face value (that is, ignoring the meta story Castellucci was telling about how DC treats the Batgirl book) - Babs forgives Bard but is ice cold to Dick? Isn't that backwards? - but might have made more sense if it was drawn more in Rodriguez's style, rather than Lupacchino's.

    Bellaire contributes a lot, of course. I think they worked very, very well together.

    He was just getting going when his fill-in run was over.
    Rodriguez's art just looks messy and weirdly proportioned to me. Nobody ever looks quite right, and the art feels rough and unpolished, even compared to some of his work on Spider-Gwen.

    I feel like Pelletier and definitely Luppachino are more stronger artists even if they look more "conventional."

  14. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    44 total votes:
    11 for Full Face Mask
    24 for Ninja Filtration Half Mask
    2 for Domino Mask
    7 for Cowl
    I've always appreciated the full face mask. It's a unique design and makes her distinct among the other bat members. Plus, the white eyes allow for a better variety of expressions I feel (at least back in the late 90's/early 2000's).

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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    I've always appreciated the full face mask. It's a unique design and makes her distinct among the other bat members. Plus, the white eyes allow for a better variety of expressions I feel (at least back in the late 90's/early 2000's).
    i love the full mask but i love seeing her smile or her eyes
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