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  1. #1531
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Wow, is that Jen Bartel? She did an amazing job! The colors in particular are really great. Her Polaris is stunning.

  2. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    It's very angsty, and I think Leah overdoes it, but the ending speech Polaris gives was great.

    Lorna feeling distraught/insecure doesn't bother me, but some of Lorna's thoughts felt kind of random to me. The ending really saves it IMO.
    It is in character for modern Lorna to care deeply about mutants she had no personal emotional bond to. After all she went on the warpath over Synch and Skin's death as she was having emotional transference of their deaths onto her vastly greater failure to protect millions of mutants. The same in terms of the massacre of mutants up in the Arctic circle. Her emotional state of breaking down and then turning that despair into rage was very much a function of her having emotional transference about their deaths.



    In terms of her emotional breakdown in X-Factor #4 over Rockslides death it would be more understandable in the context of her personalizing her own great life failure onto his death, but we didn't see her do that or even get a hint she was doing that. This is where even a one line call back can be very helpful.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-30-2020 at 10:55 AM.

  3. #1533
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Wow, is that Jen Bartel? She did an amazing job! The colors in particular are really great. Her Polaris is stunning.
    Yep thats her and I love this page

  4. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    It is in character for modern Lorna to care deeply about mutants she had no personal emotional bond to. Why did Lorna go on the warpath and kill wannabe Purifiers a decade and a half ago over the death of Synch and Skin for instance? Why did it have such a big impact on her? It was clear she was having emotional transference of their deaths onto her vastly greater failure to protect millions of mutants.

    The same in terms of the massacre of mutants up in the Arctic circle. Her emotional state of breaking down and then turning that despair into rage was very much a function of her having transference about their deaths.



    In terms of her emotional breakdown in X-Factor #4 over Rockslides death it would be more understandable in the context of her personalizing her own great life failure onto his death. This is very much where an implicit or explicit reference to the genocide would be very helpful.
    I feel like the implicit reference is there. The writing doesn't need to heavy-handedly call it out for the emotional reference to be there.

  5. #1535

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    Waiting to see more.

    What I'll say so far is that trying to claim Lorna's reaction is due to her experience with the Genoshan genocide while the issue doesn't at even one single point actually show or say she had that experience is a very "have your cake and eat it too" argument.

    This is the third time since I've been around that I've seen readers claim a scene is using her character history in considering her depiction when it really isn't.

    The first time was with All-New X-Factor #4 when fans of Peter David/that book claimed Lorna having a huge OOC freak-out was in reference to Genosha. Notice how literally nobody's remembered and raised that scene in the whole time I've complained about Marvel ignoring Lorna's history with the Genoshan genocide. Because it wasn't actually a reference. It was just easy to imagine it was if you're a hardcore fan that knows comic book history the average person doesn't.

    The second time was X-Factor #1. People claimed it acknowledged her educational background, and Lorna throwing Krakoa into space. It didn't. If you entered the book knowing nothing about Lorna's history, nothing about her communing with Krakoa tells you she has an education. She may never have finished high school for all we know there. She doesn't say something like "My Masters degree really helps me appreciate what you offer" (clunky example, but serves its purpose). Lorna doesn't show off the base by saying "The Masters degree I got really helped me figure out how to put this together." Her interaction with Krakoa was vague enough that for all the average reader might know, she used to date Krakoa and they had a bad break-up. Nothing about what she actually did.

    Now we have this X-Factor #4. With people once again saying it's taking her surviving the genocide into account when it really isn't. If it was, there would be something to make that clear. She's not Batman. Her experience with the genocide isn't retold every Friday. Marvel hasn't actually explicitly acknowledged it once in 15 years in the comics, 10 years anywhere in general. For the average reader, not being told that's why she's acting the way she is means this is just the way she is. No rhyme or reason.

    And that is a massive problem, because something that's fine with proper explanation to it can come off as annoying or signs of a bad character without it. I've seen people relentlessly bash Rosa from Final Fantasy IV because they thought she was a useless damsel in distress. Their mental image of her was just a bland trope who holds the main character back. It wasn't until they were given proper context (crossing a monster-filled desert and maybe mountain by herself, offering herself up as a hostage so her allies aren't murdered, etc) that they understood how badass she really is.

    If Marvel doesn't want to take the time in an event to explain these things, then they need to give Lorna a solo, mini or oneshot that does explain it. Otherwise they're just doing whatever and hoping readers will justify it for them.

    From what I've seen so far, Emma's reaction is the kind of reaction Lorna should have had.
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  6. #1536
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakoa View Post
    I feel like the implicit reference is there. The writing doesn't need to heavy-handedly call it out for the emotional reference to be there.
    I typically have the same stance as you. I don't think you have to bring up things ad nauseum. However, in this instance, I think bringing up Genosha works as a really strong thread that connects Lorna's narrative. From the beginning, feeling guilt and sadness over the loss of a Mutant, to the end, where she wants to avenge and slaughter those who took their brother from them. Lorna didn't know Rockslide, but mentioning the helplessness of over what happened in Genosha, serves as a strong justifier for the emotional arc she goes through here.

    I think Leah does a fine job with Polaris, but adding a little more depth could have made it stronger.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 09-30-2020 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #1537
    Astonishing Member Dante Milton's Avatar
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    The other thing we saw and heard from Lorna this issue was the pressure she feels to live up to other people's, and also her own, expectations. Particularly as the daughter of Magneto, and direct, very vocal, pressure from him, which we have also seen in previous issues of X-Factor and in the Creation issue. I think Lorna would have felt responsible for any casualties during the Otherworld mission, except maybe [A].

  8. #1538
    Spectacular Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    I liked this issue, but Magneto's behaviour at the Council meeting bothered me a bit. I would never have seen the character show demand and coldness towards a Lorna in such an emotional state. Pietro, possibly, but not Lorna. Even Charles was more understanding (although he had been in the front row to understand what Lorna went through during the Genosha genocide so that maybe made him more open-minded, who knows)

  9. #1539
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    The dialogue just isn't refined. I actually like the story, but the voices are all just off by a little bit. The characterization is almost there, but the writing reminds me of the original X-Men Unlimited or issues of Annuals where guests writers that don't regularly write the characters fill in and it's a bit awkward.

  10. #1540
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    In terms of Lorna the character has a duality, she can be emotional and have weak moments. But, she also can be politically cut throat and uncompromisingly brutal in a way only a small handful of X-Men can match. We haven't seen enough of that duality. In terms of Lorna feeling somewhat responsible for the death of someone she doesn't know? I can get behind that, but it is a matter of degree. She should be upset, but not verging on a full fledged emotional breakdown or crossing the line into one depending how one read her behavior... or at least not without bringing in her old survivors guilt. I do think Leah is trying and a few tweaks here and there could have gone a long way here.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-30-2020 at 07:05 PM.

  11. #1541

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    I've seen more pages. I have more things to say.

    Handling a character with their trauma kept in consideration is difficult. Getting their voice right can be difficult. Different people are affected by trauma, even the same trauma, in different ways. It's not an easy thing to write. I recognize that.

    But in fiction, we need to be informed on what trauma is being expressed and why. In Lorna's case, we don't have repeated retellings in pop culture to rely on. We have only what's on the page of this and recent books. A story of Batman mangling a criminal reads differently if you know nothing of Batman and think it's just a random criminal, vs if you are aware that this specific criminal murdered Batman's parents when he was a child. Magneto murdering a Nazi hits different if you think he's a random mustache twirling villain betraying another evildoer, vs if you know he survived the Holocaust and suffered through it.

    A depiction can read very badly without context. It can read as overreaction. It can read as not having the stomach for battle or having not witnessed death before. It can read as so many different unflattering things, or suggest things about them that simply are not true, when all it takes is enough details to understand why a character thinks and acts the way they do.

    X-Factor #4's Lorna does not feel like Lorna to me. It feels like someone else. I do not see a genocide survivor dealing with survivor's guilt because she's already seen and felt too many millions of lives lost that she felt responsible for. I see an inexperienced young woman taking death hard, like she doesn't know how to deal with it while her father does. X-Factor #4's Lorna reads to me like someone who never experienced Genosha. Maybe the scenes would feel different if this issue took the time to acknowledge that past. It didn't. So I'm left with what it is.

    Lorna written as not wanting to exist especially does not fit. And there is so much I can say here. But I won't. I'm not even sure if I have it in me to.

    There is a way out for this that I can see. Through Saturnyne. I don't know if I should actually say it. One second I hear people at Marvel could benefit, another second I hear their seeing it means they'll never use it. Then again, there's like a 99% chance they don't even care. Who knows anymore.

    "What a fitting humiliation."

    One positive thing I have to say from what I've seen of the issue is how Saturnyne encoded the message in Lorna's head with electromagnetism. I think that was a very clever idea, and good new usage of her powers. It does not offset the other things.

    And we are all very tired.
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  12. #1542
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I've seen more pages. I have more things to say.

    Handling a character with their trauma kept in consideration is difficult. Getting their voice right can be difficult. Different people are affected by trauma, even the same trauma, in different ways. It's not an easy thing to write. I recognize that.

    But in fiction, we need to be informed on what trauma is being expressed and why. In Lorna's case, we don't have repeated retellings in pop culture to rely on. We have only what's on the page of this and recent books. A story of Batman mangling a criminal reads differently if you know nothing of Batman and think it's just a random criminal, vs if you are aware that this specific criminal murdered Batman's parents when he was a child. Magneto murdering a Nazi hits different if you think he's a random mustache twirling villain betraying another evildoer, vs if you know he survived the Holocaust and suffered through it.

    A depiction can read very badly without context. It can read as overreaction. It can read as not having the stomach for battle or having not witnessed death before. It can read as so many different unflattering things, or suggest things about them that simply are not true, when all it takes is enough details to understand why a character thinks and acts the way they do.

    X-Factor #4's Lorna does not feel like Lorna to me. It feels like someone else. I do not see a genocide survivor dealing with survivor's guilt because she's already seen and felt too many millions of lives lost that she felt responsible for. I see an inexperienced young woman taking death hard, like she doesn't know how to deal with it while her father does. X-Factor #4's Lorna reads to me like someone who never experienced Genosha. Maybe the scenes would feel different if this issue took the time to acknowledge that past. It didn't. So I'm left with what it is.

    Lorna written as not wanting to exist especially does not fit. And there is so much I can say here. But I won't. I'm not even sure if I have it in me to.

    There is a way out for this that I can see. Through Saturnyne. I don't know if I should actually say it. One second I hear people at Marvel could benefit, another second I hear their seeing it means they'll never use it. Then again, there's like a 99% chance they don't even care. Who knows anymore.

    "What a fitting humiliation."

    One positive thing I have to say from what I've seen of the issue is how Saturnyne encoded the message in Lorna's head with electromagnetism. I think that was a very clever idea, and good new usage of her powers. It does not offset the other things.

    And we are all very tired.
    Like the new avatar change - Also, they reused Vertigo's hairstyle for her "crazy future look". Might as well say what you think about Saturnyne - even if they were to read it most likely this story line is mostly plotted out by now in terms of major points and stuff.

  13. #1543
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    It is in character for modern Lorna to care deeply about mutants she had no personal emotional bond to. After all she went on the warpath over Synch and Skin's death as she was having emotional transference of their deaths onto her vastly greater failure to protect millions of mutants. The same in terms of the massacre of mutants up in the Arctic circle. Her emotional state of breaking down and then turning that despair into rage was very much a function of her having emotional transference about their deaths.



    In terms of her emotional breakdown in X-Factor #4 over Rockslides death it would be more understandable in the context of her personalizing her own great life failure onto his death, but we didn't see her do that or even get a hint she was doing that. This is where even a one line call back can be very helpful.
    I just look at it as Polaris is a borderline empath because of her connection to magnetic fields. That is probably why her secondary mutation was absorbing emotion and turning into strength. Perhaps she feels more than most there is certainly a history there for it.

    Just speculating . And after this and seeing some of the responses and stuff, i think Lorna is going through the "reincarnation" process. Just makes me think of people talking about her past and how it was kind of all over the place.
    Last edited by jwatson; 10-01-2020 at 05:55 AM.
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  14. #1544

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
    Like the new avatar change - Also, they reused Vertigo's hairstyle for her "crazy future look". Might as well say what you think about Saturnyne - even if they were to read it most likely this story line is mostly plotted out by now in terms of major points and stuff.
    Thanks on the avatar change. I guess I may as well say the Saturnyne stuff, not because XoS is plotted out but because Marvel isn't going to care.

    Saturnyne put the prophecies in Lorna's head using electromagnetism. That means Saturnyne did something to her mind in the process. The way out I see is to say what Saturnyne did temporarily altered her brain to make her act very differently from how she normally would, in the same sense as the rod through brain that radically changed Phineas Gage's personality. This goes back to fan theories that her personality changes between high and low power usage. It could also effectively be considered another violation of her mind, like many she's had before.

    We still go back to the context problem though. It's somewhat similar to "You shouldn't have to explain the joke." A casual reader should be able to understand why the character is behaving a certain way by what's in the issue itself. And I don't think explaining her behavior in this issue with an issue or arc of X-Factor after this event will cut it. Just as I don't think something involving Genosha on X-Factor will offset her exclusion from Empyre. I think explaining it in another event as big or bigger than XoS, or in a solo/mini/oneshot, is needed. An event or solo/mini/oneshot has more of a spotlight on it than a random issue of X-Factor does.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I just look at it as Polaris is a borderline empath because of her connection to magnetic fields. That is probably why her secondary mutation was absorbing emotion and turning into strength. Perhaps she feels more than most there is certainly a history there for it.
    I've liked the idea of Lorna being able to use her powers in semi-psychic ways for a while. It's very possible with what we've seen of research on electromagnetic fields since 1968.

    I don't consider what Claremont did to Lorna to be a secondary mutation. Aside from happening before the concept of a secondary mutation existed, his writing of her during that time seemed to be heavily based on wanting to see various characters hurt her and wanting to see Lorna act like she deserves it. Instead, I headcanon that those powers were forced onto Lorna by Zaladane during the power stealing process as an added attempt to psychologically hurt and humiliate her.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-01-2020 at 09:44 AM.
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  15. #1545
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    I can only imagine being a casual reader and going from Factor 3 to #4 lol the whiplash would be disorienting.

    I do agree that Leah's handling of Lorna in this issue was a tad heavy handed but also necessary. It's obvious that she wanted to use this issue of the event to explore Lorna's psyche after such a big battle and the loss of an X-Men and how her survivors guilt triggered these feelings of inadequacy as well as referencing the Lornas of the past. I think all things considered she mostly pulled it off with having Lorna go through the stages of grief with Rockslide's death.

    But what I can't excuse is the terrible interaction she wrote between Magneto and Lorna. Magneto up to this point has treated Lorna with understanding and a modicum of kindness not someone who's going to fly off the handle and start yelling at his emotionally unstable daughter who's carrying the decapitated head of a fallen Xmen in her arms. Like what the hell??
    Last edited by loke13; 10-01-2020 at 10:14 AM.

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