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  1. #151
    Incredible Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    He isn't afraid of writing Lorna to be talked at by Magneto and Cyclops about either exposition or things relevant to their characters.

    Acknowledging and using key character history instead of using her to promote other characters, and making up for past mistreatment with more meaningful roles, doesn't require her to be "the epicenter of the x-men mythos." Insisting on better is not the same as demanding the absolute best one can imagine.
    I agree on the front that she could be used better - I meant this more as a rebuttal to the idea that no one writing the books wants to use her . I like the voice she's been given, limited so far yes but Williams is gonna expand on it

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Do you think Lorna and Daken will have a begrudging mutual understanding in this book? Since they worked together recently in BLUE and maybe they're both "hardasses" in a way? I'm not sure but it could be.

    I'm still trying to think of Lorna's dynamics with these other teammates of hers.

    I'd have to go re-read her outer space voyage with Rachel to see how that went. Did they get along well, have much conversations ? They do have some similarities definitely...

    Northstar eh I really don't know how that will go AT ALL

    I feel like Lorna (at this point) would just view Prodigy or EyeBoy as irrelevant unless they could help assist her on a mission
    Thats something im really interested in too - this cast has almost no established connections with one another. Its a fantastic opportunity to build them all up imo and exactly what I was hoping to see come out of DOX.

    I can see Rachel and Lorna getting along well and I can see Lorna have a begrudging understanding of Daken...the other two no clue. I kind of want her to be a mentor-is to Prodigy if im honest, as long as it isn't handled in a stale, played out kinda way. So much potential here its hard not to get carried away lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Siena Blaze View Post
    Yeah there's a good chance Lorna can't have an edgy role in this one considering the cast and her being the mature veteran character. Hopefully, it'll be interesting to see what shape her character takes in this run. If she's boring as hell, I just pray I get something like a new look and pretty new artwork of course. I always consider her current outfit as the lazy version of the original. Anyway, I too am hoping for some meaningful Rachel/Lorna development together since there was practically zero of that in space.
    I agree and I wish this weren't the case. Williams doesn't seem to be afraid of edge so im hoping she writes Lorna with a bit of bite - that's when I dig her the most. But the "North Star of the team" stuff suggests we might get Jean stand-in vibes...as long as they keep up the voice Hickman establish in Hox/X-men I think that'll be avoided though

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    She is not going to be the firebrand that much is clear and that is ok for the current set up. Writing Lorna as a mature veteran character not coming off like stale bread requires the nuance they have with characters like Emma or her father in similar roles. A lot of writers can't thread that needle with her in part because they don't know her well enough, obviously I hope LW can succeed here though she admitted issues getting the character and has looked for help to get her relationship with Havok.

    Lorna coming across grizzly murders of mutants and not doing anything about their killers would be tough for the character as I understand her and her history. Obviously, there are iterations of her that wouldn't care and spend all her time talking about her ex. I prefer to see how she reacts based on her own history and most writers don't get that deep with her. We will see how this title goes.
    yesssssss so much of this set-up presents interesting opportunities to explore her character. I really hope they go there. I agree with your above point too, im fine with her being a vet/mentor as long as it isn't played out. if they "go there" with her we should be fine. I guess my thesis on all these scattered thoughts is : this book'll be fantastic if Williams has balls

  2. #152
    Fantastic Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Daken is one of my favorite characters, and I'm excited to see him and Lorna together again. I hate that we didn't get to spend too much time with Polaris' team in Blue, so I'm happy that we're getting more of these two together again. Looking forward to how their relationship will develop.
    Yes, same here, I loved the Blue team! I hope their past team-up will be referenced! It wasn't much, but we already saw that Daken took orders from her and didn't have a problem following her, but he was also annoying, couldn't shut up and kind of challenged her. it would be fun to see that dynamic continue
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    I agree and I wish this weren't the case. Williams doesn't seem to be afraid of edge so im hoping she writes Lorna with a bit of bite - that's when I dig her the most. But the "North Star of the team" stuff suggests we might get Jean stand-in vibes...as long as they keep up the voice Hickman establish in Hox/X-men I think that'll be avoided though
    That was my take as well from the interview and I would agree if she keeps the House of X voice and thinking it can be avoided.

    yesssssss so much of this set-up presents interesting opportunities to explore her character. I really hope they go there. I agree with your above point too, im fine with her being a vet/mentor as long as it isn't played out. if they "go there" with her we should be fine. I guess my thesis on all these scattered thoughts is : this book'll be fantastic if Williams has balls
    That is a great way to put it and I completely agree.

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Do you think Lorna and Daken will have a begrudging mutual understanding in this book? Since they worked together recently in BLUE and maybe they're both "hardasses" in a way? I'm not sure but it could be.

    I'm still trying to think of Lorna's dynamics with these other teammates of hers.

    I'd have to go re-read her outer space voyage with Rachel to see how that went. Did they get along well, have much conversations ? They do have some similarities definitely...

    I feel like Lorna (at this point) would just view Prodigy or EyeBoy as irrelevant unless they could help assist her on a mission
    I've noticed a slight "offshoot of 'more important characters'" vibe for half the cast when taking into account Daken (Wolverine), Rachel (Jean), and now Lorna (Magneto). Others addressed Lorna's space time, but my memory of it with Rachel was that it was okay. Way more could've been done with it than was actually done. Lorna's best scenes were with Crystal and Luna. As far as Prodigy and EyeBoy, I think it's good for Lorna to interact with what Marvel would term "lower tier" characters, and that it's good for team comps to have a mix. However, this book has all the issues I cited already.

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    Thanks! I see a lot of potential to this concept, though realistically I don't see Marvel pursuing it given their proclivities. But that's why we have fandom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siena Blaze View Post
    Yeah there's a good chance Lorna can't have an edgy role in this one considering the cast and her being the mature veteran character.
    I've been watching The Magicians (good show, watch it, especially The Fillorian Candidate in season 3), and recently Penny was forced to take on the role of professor. He didn't want the role, and his first class session was basically "Don't use your powers because they'll get you killed, get the hell out of here, bye." Now obviously Lorna's been through too much (*cough*Genosha*cough*) to ever talk that way about mutants or having powers, but Lorna could hypothetically serve the same role while cutting against everything presumed about what's going on. A "We're not here just to be their clean up crew, we're gonna do our own special thing whether the others like it or not" take. But that scenario still wouldn't resolve all the problems cited before.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZPolaris View Post
    As far as Alex, I think that he has been such a big part of her story that it would be naÔve to not explore it when getting to know the character. This by no means suggests that he will play a role in the book.
    Havok's been able to do tons of things (Uncanny Avengers and leading Astonishing X-Men among them) with not a single word about Lorna. Why is it that he can do high-profile things without Lorna, but Havok has to come up every time Lorna shows up anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    I really don't get the endless Polaris pessimism, but don't take that as lack of understanding of your views. Every new writer on every character is fresh start, so rooting through a single interview to take things to wild conclusions is weird to me, but go off I guess.
    Every new writer is not a fresh start. It's still the same company, run by the same people above that writer, with a persistent corporate culture in which any new writers would have to fit well in order to get hired. Marvel would never hire someone who doesn't match the way they think internally even if that writer's exactly what they need, short of it being some absolutely huge famous writer like Neil Gaiman or Stephen King whose profile overwhelms operations as usual. And even then I'd bank more on such a writer having to walk away over creative differences with executives than on the execs going with plans.

    With that in mind, Marvel's track record with Lorna is bad. They did a few good things with her this past decade (e.g. finally telling her origin story after not telling it for 44 years), but those things are overshadowed by plenty of bad across the decades, especially lately. When Lorna surviving the Genoshan genocide and having massive trauma from it apparently means nothing in House of X or X-Men #1, and Marvel thinks so little of her that she doesn't appear on any covers (not even the X-women variant cover), among many other things (including stuff before HoX/PoX/DoX), it's hard to believe Marvel is going to do anything good. Red flag comments don't help. When you've seen Marvel bend over backwards to force Havok on Lorna since 2017, it's inevitable that the writer namedropping him is going to make people expect and prepare for the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    I agree on the front that she could be used better - I meant this more as a rebuttal to the idea that no one writing the books wants to use her . I like the voice she's been given, limited so far yes but Williams is gonna expand on it
    Ah. Well, I've said before that even if a writer doesn't want to write her, that highlights either 1) a writer should be pushed to write her, or 2) Marvel needs to hire more people that think differently from how they do. But, "a writer should be pushed to write her" means the writer has to be in a situation that requires a meaningful amount of research on her. Hence one reason for my qualifier of "Lorna needs to get a solo, mini, oneshot or lead a team book" before I'll start buying Disney stuff again. If she's just one member in a cast, and a writer (who fits Marvel's corporate culture) doesn't have much interest in her, they don't have much incentive to put real thought into her or do much research beyond "I skimmed some issues, talked to one or two people, I'm done."

    Lorna really needs whoever's writing her to be considerate of her POV enough to think through everything she's experienced and the impact it's had on her, both in-universe and in the real world. Historically, writers putting their focus on some other character while using Lorna leads to Lorna getting treated poorly. Moreso if it's a character where there's a history of Lorna getting treated poorly around them. You can have an advisor style role and still end up worse off if, in that advisor role, the team leader constantly has to ignore your advice to get things done or your advice primarily consists of "What would Havok/my dad want me to do?" Even if the answer to that question is "Okay, now that I know what they'd want me to do, I'll do the opposite." It's still defining her by the men in her life instead of her own actual experiences.

    Frankly, I think Lorna most needs a solo book to clear up Marvel's problems in how they approach her. The other scenarios are me being willing to compromise - which I'm starting to think was a mistake.
    Last edited by salarta; 01-20-2020 at 03:41 PM.
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  5. #155
    Incredible Member Jumpyshark's Avatar
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    Not sure when I think of "corporate culture" I think of Leah Williams:

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...18449631379456

    Don't see how Marvel writers are supposed to do a deep dive in Lorna's psyche either, unless, I don't know, she was in a book like what this new X-Factor is supposed to be about? Would you rather she just got a crammed in page in HoX (if that)? Really? I think Prisoner X augurs well, even after disappointments in Blue and prior to that.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    Not sure when I think of "corporate culture" I think of Leah Williams:

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...18449631379456

    Don't see how Marvel writers are supposed to do a deep dive in Lorna's psyche either, unless, I don't know, she was in a book like what this new X-Factor is supposed to be about? Would you rather she just got a crammed in page in HoX (if that)? Really? I think Prisoner X augurs well, even after disappointments in Blue and prior to that.
    BLUE was better than Prisoner X though. Prisoner X was pretty good but BLUE was very good. BLUE was just too brief (not Bunn's fault either).

    salarta wants a Lorna solo series.
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  7. #157
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    BLUE was better than Prisoner X though. Prisoner X was pretty good but BLUE was very good. BLUE was just too brief (not Bunn's fault either).

    salarta wants a Lorna solo series.
    I dodn't think Lorna needs a solo series to develop. A interested writer and a inspired cast can do wonders.

  8. #158
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    It seems harmful to complain over a minuscule thing that you arenít even sure will be happening. For all we know, Leah Williams is writing a series using Polaris in a very important role. Polaris hasnít been in an ongoing in a main cast for over five years. Why waste that and not buy the book because of paranoia based in absolutely nothing?

  9. #159
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    if anything i wouldn't buy because I think Leah writing isn't good, and would wait for reviews

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    Not sure when I think of "corporate culture" I think of Leah Williams:

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...18449631379456

    Don't see how Marvel writers are supposed to do a deep dive in Lorna's psyche either, unless, I don't know, she was in a book like what this new X-Factor is supposed to be about? Would you rather she just got a crammed in page in HoX (if that)? Really? I think Prisoner X augurs well, even after disappointments in Blue and prior to that.
    Yet, Leah is part of that corporate culture. Marvel is a company, whose objectives primarily follow corporate interests, and Leah is hired by that company under contract. The guy who works tech support for Comcast is likewise part of corporate culture.

    I don't see how anyone can think a book like this X-Factor would manage to do a deep dive into Lorna's psyche. It's a team book, meaning time needs to be split amongst its various members. Lorna isn't the leader, so there isn't an internal urgency to show her perspective. Depending on its executive, Lorna being "THE north star" could actually mean she has less panel time than any other character on the book (if she's an advisor, she just needs to advise every so often; if a coordinator, just needs to tell the team what to do and get out of their way).

    Peter David did manage to tell Lorna's origin story (which Marvel didn't promote, at all) in X-Factor #243, but such issues are rare exceptions and highly unlikely to happen until years into a book unless the focal character is the leader, popular, or Marvel really wants to push them badly.

    Lorna with a solo, mini, oneshot or leading a team book would give her the deep dive she needs. Primarily the first three options because then there are no other characters to distract from the work the writer should be doing of considering Lorna's POV and history.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I dodn't think Lorna needs a solo series to develop. A interested writer and a inspired cast can do wonders.
    But I see the chances of that working in Lorna's favor to be extremely slim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    It seems harmful to complain over a minuscule thing that you arenít even sure will be happening. For all we know, Leah Williams is writing a series using Polaris in a very important role. Polaris hasnít been in an ongoing in a main cast for over five years. Why waste that and not buy the book because of paranoia based in absolutely nothing?
    The answer to this "paranoia" comment is the exact same as my answer about pessimism. When you've been burned enough, you trust your experiences and the intuition you've built up from those experiences.
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  11. #161
    Incredible Member Jumpyshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Yet, Leah is part of that corporate culture. Marvel is a company, whose objectives primarily follow corporate interests, and Leah is hired by that company under contract. The guy who works tech support for Comcast is likewise part of corporate culture.

    I don't see how anyone can think a book like this X-Factor would manage to do a deep dive into Lorna's psyche. It's a team book, meaning time needs to be split amongst its various members. Lorna isn't the leader, so there isn't an internal urgency to show her perspective. Depending on its executive, Lorna being "THE north star" could actually mean she has less panel time than any other character on the book (if she's an advisor, she just needs to advise every so often; if a coordinator, just needs to tell the team what to do and get out of their way).

    Peter David did manage to tell Lorna's origin story (which Marvel didn't promote, at all) in X-Factor #243, but such issues are rare exceptions and highly unlikely to happen until years into a book unless the focal character is the leader, popular, or Marvel really wants to push them badly.

    Lorna with a solo, mini, oneshot or leading a team book would give her the deep dive she needs. Primarily the first three options because then there are no other characters to distract from the work the writer should be doing of considering Lorna's POV and history.
    Freelancers being part of a corporation's culture is a bad take, actually at odds with the word itself. Yes within Marvel there are editorial edicts to varying degrees and other pressures on writers, but I would hardly say that Hickman's era of X-Men is subject to them unduly.

    Also, note the bolded parts of your post - you're actually arguing against yourself considering X-Factor #243 was quite the deep dive into Lorna's continuity. It was also the point of the series, and I'd wager that X-Factor is primarily known as being the book of interpersonal dynamics after PAD's work. He did two issues that featured the team visiting Leonard Samson, a psychiatrist, one of which features Lorna, albeit in a dated way.

    Finally, in the upcoming X-Factor, Lorna could interact with the other characters, revealing more of her psyche, especially if the other characters are coming to her as their trusted "north star". Your pessimism is honestly bemusing, considering you obviously care for the character - you just might want to reevaluate things, in my opinion as an internet stranger.
    Last edited by Jumpyshark; 01-21-2020 at 02:06 PM.

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    Freelancers being part of a corporation's culture is a bad take, actually at odds with the word itself. Yes within Marvel there are editorial edicts to varying degrees and other pressures on writers, but I would hardly say that Hickman's era of X-Men is subject to them unduly.
    I'd actually say it's more accurate. Freelancers need every job they can get. Therefore, they have a greater incentive than regular employees to read the room and give what the room wants, or else get passed over for future opportunities. This pairs with how to even get into the room in the first place, you need to present signs that you and your work can fit into that culture. There's a reason nobody working for Marvel spoke out loudly against Marvel undermining the X-Men and Fantastic Four during Marvel's feud with Fox. Also a reason why Sina Grace calling out Marvel concerning many of their calls was considered a bit scandalous. Even if you completely abolished editorial edicts, writers are still going to feel they need to cater to the editors' interests to boost their chances of future employment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    Also, note the bolded parts of your post - you're actually arguing against yourself considering X-Factor #243 was quite the deep dive into Lorna's continuity. It was also the point of the series, and I'd wager that X-Factor is primarily known as being the book of interpersonal dynamics after PAD's work. He did two issues that featured the team visiting Leonard Samson, a psychiatrist, one of which features Lorna, albeit in a dated way.
    You bolded the parts that benefit your point while skipping more important ones. Including:

    but such issues are rare exceptions and highly unlikely to happen until years into a book unless the focal character is the leader, popular, or Marvel really wants to push them badly.
    At the time of X-Factor #243, Peter David had been writing most of those characters on that book for as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) nearly a decade. Lorna (and Havok) was newly added to the book, making some issues that focus on her far more likely despite being a supporting character.

    This iteration of X-Factor does not have a near-decade's worth of familiarity and ongoing stories which Lorna's being tossed into. It's starting new, and as such the writer needs to figure out which stories to tell and how to tell them, in addition to how the various characters work together as a team, what struggles they will need to overcome, what its leader's guiding principles are, etc. Leah needs to figure out a lot of moving parts, in other words. Same as how most TV shows need a season to figure themselves out. I'm very doubtful she's going to put the brakes on all that work to spend time on what Lorna needs. If Lorna was the team leader, yes. But not when Northstar is the leader and she's a supporting character on his team book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    Finally, in the upcoming X-Factor, Lorna could interact with the other characters, revealing more of her psyche, especially if the other characters are coming to her as their trusted "north star". Your pessimism is honestly bemusing, considering you obviously care for the character - you just might want to reevaluate things, in my opinion as an internet stranger.
    It basically tells you what I've seen and been through as a fan. Last time I placed a lot of faith in Marvel was Secret Wars. Lorna got a very good presence during it through Secret Wars: House of M, the Magneto solo, and various cameos. At the time, my gut feeling told me Marvel was only doing it because they planned to dump Lorna into limbo. I decided to ignore my gut and put some faith in Marvel. My gut was right. They threw her into limbo for a year and a half to two years.

    Today, my gut tells me that Lorna not leading the team but instead being their "north star" is just nice sounding talk for "she's an extra supporting character on Northstar's book, but with a fancy title to try to make it sound better than it is." My gut also tells me Havok coming up in interview means Leah's going to do something with it, and it won't be good. And above all, my gut tells me Lorna's here ultimately because Marvel doesn't respect her enough to do anything other than exploit her to promote other characters. She wasn't "good enough" to interact with Iceman at any point following his reveal as gay, nor was she "good enough" to have any meaningful interactions with Jean upon her resurrection. Having been Iceman's first 'love interest' or Jean's first female mutant friend meant absolutely nothing to Marvel. But she's "good enough" to be a stepping stone for Havok, Bishop, Northstar, and so on to get more panel time and attention.

    If Marvel isn't willing to do better by Lorna, they may as well not use her. The fandom can do just fine exploring everything Marvel refuses to. I'm getting way more out of fanfic, fanart, and commissions than Marvel's been willing to do for most of Lorna's existence.

    In the meantime, they can do to Havok what they've been doing to Lorna. Put him on no covers. Use him only to have Cyclops explain stuff to him or for him to talk about his ex. Slot him into an advisory role on a book he used to lead and do nothing else with him. If it's so great for Lorna, then it must be a dream come true for Havok, right?

    I'll get excited when Marvel puts real care and effort into Lorna instead of trying to make me think breadcrumbs are magic pixie dust.
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  13. #163
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    A retro discussion of Austen's run I noticed on the biggest reddit X-Men site. It was one of the best examples Lorna had of a writer following up on another writers work and making it core to Lorna's pathos.

    Also an podcast with Jean and Lorna and their underdeveloped relationship at the end and why it should be built up.

    As for the debate about the solo. Its not going to happen anytime soon, but condensing down Lorna's history and important events to help writers and fans better understand the character would certainly be helpful. I will say on the positive for Marvel they are releasing X-Men Reload including UXM 443 this Summer. Though Lorna could used a compiled trade/list of her important moments.

  14. #164
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    Well Alex's inclusion in his upcoming book is not as leader but more as an oversight kind of thing that we know he will fail at, so far he's just been around because he's Scott's brother when Marvel bothers to remember that, this after pretty much entire X-world turned their backs on him and that only changed once he proved that he was right...and I'd say that Marvel doesn't respect Alex either, they use him sure, treat him like a newby that needed to learn how to be a leader after already being one for years and most of his teams have recently ended up not doing well to where he gets the blame more than anybody else on the team...

    As for those no meaningful interactions with Jean or Bobby, neither one of those was because of anything that Alex said or did, that was all Marvel...

    Only saying tat if you believe that Marvel hasn't treated Lorna right I'm not here to argue otherwise, only saying that they haven't exactly exalted Alex either...

    As for the upcoming X-Factor and the mention of Alex who knows, it could go two ways, good things for Alex/Lorna or bad things for them in that respect, I could see it going either way so I'll wait and see and expect the worst...

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    My Quick thoughts

    - I like Havok and Polaris together, The only reason it does not work is that comics are horrible afraid of keeping couples together. They think they need drama in every relationship and long term relationship kills what you can do with characters
    - Being in this book is a great thing for Polaris she is arguably the biggest name and she is arguably the most powerful. The only thing she didn't get was the out right leadership and we have learned from Wolverine the person who is challenge the leader can be as big "the leader". Being the figure head isn't as import as a clear role
    - It is fan ego to think Polaris should be given more, Just her showing up and being used is great
    - Once Polaris isn't "crazy" I think it will be a huge step forward. X-factor has both of the mental possession girls in Rachel and Lorna. I hope Leah avoids that trope and Rachel and Lorna should really have a cool friendship.
    - I hope they lean on the edgy no f's given Lorna from the gifted. The writer said she wasn't clear what do with her I hope she watched/es the gifted and lean towards that.

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