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  1. #166
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    I'd rather Lorna not just be a carbon copy of Magneto where his views on everything are hers as if she can't disagree with him on anything...I think that it's more that Marvel doesn't respect Alex or Lorna that's the problem, and so far we don't know if Lorna will be challenging NorthStar or not, just as long as she doesn't bring up the fact that she's Magneto's daughter if/when she does it...I don't see Lorna as being crazy now and they'll probably just ignore Rachel's recent troubles sadly...some of Lorna's problems could be inherited from Magneto as it would fit with Wanda and Pietro having similar problems over the years and it's not all their fault...

    The Gifted Lorna was a totally different reality and the 616 Lorna wouldn't have any reason to be to terribly much like her as the situation for mutants in the 616 verse is completely different...

  2. #167
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I
    The Gifted Lorna was a totally different reality and the 616 Lorna wouldn't have any reason to be to terribly much like her as the situation for mutants in the 616 verse is completely different...
    Gifted Lorna is assertive and very much control of her narrative, I didn't say they should make her a carbon copy of gifted. I said the writer should lean on that portrayal of Lorna they are a lot of elements they should use it clearly worked and they gave a blueprint of things that you can do with character but this is just my opinion.


    I guess I will talk about the leadership thing too, People are too caught up with comics leadership. I mention challenging Northstar because it is important note that it happens all the time where the leader is not the most important character in the book and Wolverine is the clearest example of that "the rebel" was more important than the "square leader". Having a clear role in book is the most important thing stuff like Beast's "Smart Guy" and Logan's "Rebel Badass" makes it that they are just as important in books as "the leader". Which brings me back to why I said they should lean on Gifted Lorna because that personality type is excellent for interactions and groups. Now I wish they give Lorna more useful degree for comics than Geophysics the second thing in character usage is skillset, Wolverine is Fighter/Tracker, Beast is Doctor/Scientist in story it is pretty easy for them to find something to do.

    The biggest problem with X-men is many characters are created into a group environment that doesn't develop an elite skill for them to use in books. This is going to be a book about investigation you are going have a super scientist/swiss army knife in Prodigy, two elite trackers in Eyeboy and Daken, A telepath who can read minds which is help investigating and Northstar and Polaris who don't have skillset that really helps but Northstar is guy in charge so he has something to do. In fighting situation she is the powerhouse and heavy hitter so she has team role but a non action role is helpful. Leader is one spot on team they are other useful things for characters. Lorna has bloody masters in Geophysics they can give her college minor in something useful and it will be amazing for the character long term.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-22-2020 at 01:56 AM.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    My Quick thoughts

    - I like Havok and Polaris together, The only reason it does not work is that comics are horrible afraid of keeping couples together. They think they need drama in every relationship and long term relationship kills what you can do with characters
    - Being in this book is a great thing for Polaris she is arguably the biggest name and she is arguably the most powerful. The only thing she didn't get was the out right leadership and we have learned from Wolverine the person who is challenge the leader can be as big "the leader". Being the figure head isn't as import as a clear role
    - It is fan ego to think Polaris should be given more, Just her showing up and being used is great
    - Once Polaris isn't "crazy" I think it will be a huge step forward. X-factor has both of the mental possession girls in Rachel and Lorna. I hope Leah avoids that trope and Rachel and Lorna should really have a cool friendship.
    - I hope they lean on the edgy no f's given Lorna from the gifted. The writer said she wasn't clear what do with her I hope she watched/es the gifted and lean towards that.
    I was thinking about this today. The thing that bothers me about Lorna x Havok is mostly that I feel he "tames" her. I also wouldn't have any issue with their relationship as long as it didn't "hold her back".

    I feel like Havok asserts himself too much as the "dominant side" in their relationship over time... and when they get together Lorna ceases to have an ideology, viewpoint, or strong convictions of her own... and stops taking strong actions for those things. She becomes for lack of a better word "domesticated". That's my problem with the Havok relationship, I actually do enjoy combining the Maximoff/Summers families that is a cool thing if it could happen but it'd have to be a much more equal relationship where Polaris can be more than just arm candy and retreat into a tame timid character

    jmc and others have already noted repeatedly the high point of the Lorna/Havok thing was when she wasn't technically Magneto's daughter, and it was a more old fashioned era as well, with a more bright clear line between Good and Evil. Things change, Lorna's characterization has changed. Not just The Gifted but also the Austen run and others since, have expanded on what is possible with her. The influence of her parentage is a huge factor on her, and it kind of sucks to think of it this way but in many ways she is caught between a push and pull situation between Magneto and Havok... Magneto towards more rebellion, Havok towards more conformity. Thats just how it is, it sort of sucks for her to be defined as between two guys like that but that's really how it is. I'm not sure how she overcomes all of this but maybe there is a way to synthesize everything together. However if I have to choose to move her closer to Magneto/rebellion or Havok/conformity I'm for sure choosing Magneto/rebellion. Not "carbon copy" of her dad, that's not even possible to do given her different history and life experiences and everything else. But that is just WAY more unique and compelling for her as a character than (as jmc is fond of saying) a "watered down green hair Jean Grey"
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  4. #169
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    But I see the chances of that working in Lorna's favor to be extremely slim.
    yeah, chances are small. I can't trust the writer, specially after the Havok debate. But I haven't been a big fan of the writer anyway
    It can always surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I was thinking about this today. The thing that bothers me about Lorna x Havok is mostly that I feel he "tames" her. I also wouldn't have any issue with their relationship as long as it didn't "hold her back".

    I feel like Havok asserts himself too much as the "dominant side" in their relationship over time... and when they get together Lorna ceases to have an ideology, viewpoint, or strong convictions of her own... and stops taking strong actions for those things. She becomes for lack of a better word "domesticated". That's my problem with the Havok relationship, I actually do enjoy combining the Maximoff/Summers families that is a cool thing if it could happen but it'd have to be a much more equal relationship where Polaris can be more than just arm candy and retreat into a tame timid character

    jmc and others have already noted repeatedly the high point of the Lorna/Havok thing was when she wasn't technically Magneto's daughter, and it was a more old fashioned era as well, with a more bright clear line between Good and Evil. Things change, Lorna's characterization has changed. Not just The Gifted but also the Austen run and others since, have expanded on what is possible with her. The influence of her parentage is a huge factor on her, and it kind of sucks to think of it this way but in many ways she is caught between a push and pull situation between Magneto and Havok... Magneto towards more rebellion, Havok towards more conformity. Thats just how it is, it sort of sucks for her to be defined as between two guys like that but that's really how it is. I'm not sure how she overcomes all of this but maybe there is a way to synthesize everything together. However if I have to choose to move her closer to Magneto/rebellion or Havok/conformity I'm for sure choosing Magneto/rebellion. Not "carbon copy" of her dad, that's not even possible to do given her different history and life experiences and everything else. But that is just WAY more unique and compelling for her as a character than (as jmc is fond of saying) a "watered down green hair Jean Grey"
    Havok and Polaris have nowhere to go. He is possessive and doesn't trust Lorna.

    I don't understand why would they get back would be good, specially if it would be good for her.
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-22-2020 at 04:21 PM.

  5. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    yeah, chances are small. I can't trust the writer, specially after the Havok debate. But I haven't been a big fan of the writer anyway
    It can always surprise
    Leah fits what I've said before about how I think Lorna should have a female writer (having observed Lorna treated better in past work with female writers/editors involved). But Lorna's "place" on the team with this book name paired with the mention of Havok instantly wiped out that plus.

    Some people think having issues about Havok's mention is making much of nothing. But it means much more. I'd like to quote Hamilton.

    In a letter I received from you two weeks ago
    I noticed a comma in the middle of a phrase
    It changed the meaning. Did you intend this?
    One stroke and you’ve consumed my waking days
    It says:

    [HAMILTON/ANGELICA]
    “My dearest Angelica”

    [ANGELICA]
    With a comma after “dearest.” You’ve written

    [HAMILTON AND ANGELICA]
    “My dearest, Angelica.”
    Even something as simple as the placement of a comma can be loaded with meaning. People are often too eager to dismiss small clear signs as not meaning anything, and I've seen this behavior repeatedly on CBR, even when it's very obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Havok and Polaris have nowhere to go. He is possessive and doesn't trust Lorna.

    I don't understand why would they get back would be good, specially if it would be good for her.
    I know some fans of the pairing that, while fans of it, know that Lorna needs far more use and respect for herself before the pairing has any chance of being done well.

    Fixing up a broken down, torn to hell car requires a lot of real work on its various components. What Marvel wants to do is slap a coat of paint (not even nice paint, just paint) on it and sell to whoever isn't willing to look under the hood to check if it even has an engine. All Marvel's really doing is a) proving they don't care to spend any of the time or money needed to do the job for real, and b) making people think the car should just be scrapped and any remaining good parts placed in other cars instead of restored.
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  6. #171
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Leah fits what I've said before about how I think Lorna should have a female writer (having observed Lorna treated better in past work with female writers/editors involved). But Lorna's "place" on the team with this book name paired with the mention of Havok instantly wiped out that plus.

    Some people think having issues about Havok's mention is making much of nothing. But it means much more. I'd like to quote Hamilton.



    Even something as simple as the placement of a comma can be loaded with meaning. People are often too eager to dismiss small clear signs as not meaning anything, and I've seen this behavior repeatedly on CBR, even when it's very obvious.
    We only have small information about buying a book, so we have to overnalyze that. Last thig i want is invest on a book that won't be what I want to read.
    It is really worrying that a writer reach out to a massive havok/polaris shipper and change of idea.
    There is only one reason for that

    I know some fans of the pairing that, while fans of it, know that Lorna needs far more use and respect for herself before the pairing has any chance of being done well.

    Fixing up a broken down, torn to hell car requires a lot of real work on its various components. What Marvel wants to do is slap a coat of paint (not even nice paint, just paint) on it and sell to whoever isn't willing to look under the hood to check if it even has an engine. All Marvel's really doing is a) proving they don't care to spend any of the time or money needed to do the job for real, and b) making people think the car should just be scrapped and any remaining good parts placed in other cars instead of restored.
    That is a massive problem, it is pretty clear marvel doesn't want to fix the problems just get over them like it never happened.

  7. #172
    Fantastic Member Siena Blaze's Avatar
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    I appreciate the repeated opposition to all things Havok in Lorna's life. Otherwise, brace yourself for Havolaris Hell (or Heaven for LA30X33. ).

  8. #173
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    I'm not that simple, Alex and Lorna together written badly is no fun for me either as I'd rather see them together and written well but I don't remember him trying to domesticate her and the not trusting her part was more PAD who wrote Alex badly and needed a reason to split them apart in a hurry. Right now Lorna has become to violent and hard edged and basically just a copy of Magneto in her actions and such and basically be Magneto's lap dog to do whatever he says whenever he says it as if she's trying to be the best daughter that she can be without thinking for herself regardless of what he thinks---and no I would never want her to act that way towards Alex either, I always kind of liked it when Alex and Lorna would disagree on things from time to time and talked it out and worked through it together, when was the last time that she disagreed with him and they argued where she won the argument, not saying that she should be domesticated by any stretch of anyone's imagination...

    The problem is that nobody can agree on how long getting enough respect for herself and such would take, basically when is enough enough and all of that...
    Last edited by LoganAlpha30X33; 01-22-2020 at 08:23 PM.

  9. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    The problem is that nobody can agree on how long getting enough respect for herself and such would take, basically when is enough enough and all of that...
    If Marvel had kept doing good things for Lorna after 2015, enough would've been two years from now. Origin story in 2012 to 2022. Unfortunately, Marvel decided to throw her into limbo. Then have Havok hijack her return to comics and misuse her to promote his upcoming team book. Then repeatedly force mentions and visuals of him on anything Lorna appeared in. Then put out a toy pack of the Magnus family that excludes her (not really making it a Magnus family pack) while putting her in one with Havok. Then put out Marvel Tales, where they used good art of Lorna on the cover to bait-and-switch people into reading Havok's intro issues where Lorna's treated badly. Then put out HoX/PoX/DoX where they ignored all her relevant history in favor of "Remember kids, she used to date Havok! You can tell we totally wanna let her be her own character by how we keep having her talk about him like she's a Pokemon and that's her name."

    Marvel's antics have reset the clock. I'd now say it'll take til 2030 with very minimal mention of him. The longer Marvel keeps doing this stuff, the longer it'll take. And sure, they could keep trying to force it on everyone without doing any of the necessary work, but that just means the relationship as Marvel handles it will keep on sucking and never be as "great" as people at Marvel want to make readers believe it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    We only have small information about buying a book, so we have to overnalyze that. Last thig i want is invest on a book that won't be what I want to read.
    It is really worrying that a writer reach out to a massive havok/polaris shipper and change of idea.
    There is only one reason for that
    Reaching out to a Havok x Polaris fan isn't really a problem. It's reaching out to only two people, and having no counterbalance to how one of those two is a huge Havok x Polaris fan, that's a problem. Say I'm planning to write a Superman book. Does it make sense to talk to only two fans, one of whom absolutely adores Snyder's idea of Superman and thinks Superman needs to fit Snyder's model everywhere?

    That Leah touted speaking to only two people in itself gives me pause. Is that the extent of her research on Lorna? Does she think doing that is going above and beyond? Does she think that gives her a complete enough picture of who Lorna is and what she's been through?

    Maybe Leah's read every single issue Lorna's been in. Maybe she's read absolutely nothing. I don't know. But the fact Leah could have mentioned countless other things (Genosha, history with Rachel in space, etc) and instead brought up Havok leads me toward the "hasn't read any issues that are important for Lorna and has no idea who she is" side of impressions. Like getting a chance to write Superman and all you bring up is how Batman repeatedly beat him down in Frank Miller's books. Or getting a chance to write Batgirl and all you can say about her is how Joker shot her.

    It wouldn't exactly inspire Batgirl fans if all the next writer can say about her is "yeah I talked to a huge Killing Joke fan and now I can say I really appreciate what DC did to her back then."
    Last edited by salarta; 01-22-2020 at 10:03 PM.
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  10. #175
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    She talked to those two fans because they were her friends. It's not like she went around surveying Polaris fans.

    And even if you think a romance is bad, it's really not the same as getting shot and paralyzed. This analogy is super overdramatic.

    Besides, I think she said on a tweet that Havok isn't even on the book.

  11. #176
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    Yeah he's not then on the book but that wouldn't mean that he couldn't be involved somehow, I highly doubt that it'll be another ten years before Alex and Lorna are back together, the when and how and all of that...who knows...and now every chance that Marvel gets salarta, it's hey it's Polaris, she's Magneto's daughter, as if that's all that she is and here most seem to want her to have all but identical feelings about everything and anything as Magneto does and that she has to stay as close to him as possible for as long as possible...there's interacting with Magneto and then there's obeying Magneto...

    Well if she had reached out to two people who hated the pairing then I'd think that many here would be fine with it...

  12. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    She talked to those two fans because they were her friends. It's not like she went around surveying Polaris fans.
    Remains that "I talked to two friends" is all we know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    And even if you think a romance is bad, it's really not the same as getting shot and paralyzed. This analogy is super overdramatic.
    Which doesn't matter. It still makes the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Besides, I think she said on a tweet that Havok isn't even on the book.
    Quoting one of my own posts from page 7 of the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    1. Saying Alex isn't in X-Factor doesn't mean he couldn't show up for a story arc, or for cameos, or get talked about repeatedly throughout the book (see also X-Men Blue putting the focus on him during Lorna's return, or ANXF bringing Havok on for multiple cameos to question her leadership and have Pietro spy on her).
    2. Even if he wasn't explicitly mentioned by name, he could be hinted at, or Lorna could be written in a way that implies an impact he has on her ("This guy I used to date let me tag along to see other galaxies," blah blah blah).
    3. Leah saying today that he isn't on X-Factor doesn't mean the situation won't change tomorrow. The studio behind the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon thought they would get to keep making it out to season 3, then Disney bought Marvel and the show got canceled.
    4. Or even this: what if it's technically true in that Leah won't write it, but she's off the book after 12 issues and a different writer is set to take over that will immediately put Havok on the book.
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  13. #178
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    In real life romantic relationships are a vital part of our existence, but only one part that we compartmentalize. We don't go to school or work and spend our days talking about why my significant other thinks about themselves and what he would have me do at a given moment. Lorna did fall into that trap for decades.

    Lorna is a poorly defined character so poorly defined writers have to ask for help from others to try to understand her. Leah wouldn't be the first writer to have done this, in fact I have talked to writers in the past about her and they have real trouble understanding her. Much of this comes down to looking the wrong places. There is a heavy bias towards looking at what are currently deemed to be iconic runs. There really isn't good morsels to understand Lorna in any of what is generally argued to be iconic runs outside one issue of Morrison's.

    Don't get me wrong, Genosha very much should be a central part of Lorna's pathos, but it gets deep sized in favor of bad pathos from the Claremont era.

    Lorna's romantic relationship life weren't compartmentalized away from the rest of what Lorna did. Every major secondary relationship she had on her various X-Factor runs (outside of family) in the end revolved around her romantic life and was there to spice things up in that regard. Her thoughts and feelings were in the end focused on how it would accentuate her romantic relationship. Writers weren't always fair to her boyfriend, but they tended to depict him as a fully fledged character in his own right with his own thoughts and feelings and views outside of the ship. Lorna not so much.

    I don't think Marvel would consider making a Lorna solo, mini or one shot. Though I sympathize with the argument one of those should happen because writers themselves are confused at Lorna's basic motivations, personality, ethos, etc. Writers shouldn't have to ask for help from fans in that regard, there should be a guide to better understand the character. Fans themselves are not an impartial source of knowledge including myself. Shippers have their own bias and that is making the ship they love work from their nostalgic era of comic buying.

    My bias is making Lorna as a character work as an important Marvel character and restoring her to her former glory and status she hasn't achieved since the 60s.

    To start that process she needs a base line motivation, a core set of views, an accepted one or two important life events that drives her character. I would like to see her move away from the image of her as a C list love interest character who gets possessed from time to time which is the predominate image Marvel has of her to the level that no she doesn't get included in Magnus family merchandise or games updates when they come out even now. If Leah Williams manages to put the character on the right track or at least keeps her on the track that HoX started her on I will be happy with the run as that can be built on.
    Last edited by jmc247; 01-23-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  14. #179

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    I’ve learned that pushing for any kind of real progress is, in the eyes of people who don’t like or respect the thing in need of progress, “asking for too much.” They think anything that threatens to change the status quo in any meaningful way should be ignored or put down.

    Even if the status quo is bad. Typically, they’ll point to something that’s worse elsewhere and say “See, it could be worse, you should be thankful for what you’ve got” as if that makes the problems somehow no longer problems.

    This applies to Lorna’s situation at Marvel. Say a couple things that sound superficially good but have no real positive substance, and try to dismiss any real need as if it’s asking for the universe.
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  15. #180
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Remains that "I talked to two friends" is all we know.
    I'm sure most writers don't even do that. They just form their own opinions by themselves and write it without caring what others think.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Which doesn't matter. It still makes the point.
    It doesn't imo. Even if you passionately hate the ship, you need to understand that some people will like it, and it doesn't mean that they're not ~real fans~. I don't think anyone enjoys seeing Barbara get shot, tortured and paralyzed in the same way that they enjoy a romantic relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Quoting one of my own posts from page 7 of the thread.

    1. Saying Alex isn't in X-Factor doesn't mean he couldn't show up for a story arc, or for cameos, or get talked about repeatedly throughout the book (see also X-Men Blue putting the focus on him during Lorna's return, or ANXF bringing Havok on for multiple cameos to question her leadership and have Pietro spy on her).

    2. Even if he wasn't explicitly mentioned by name, he could be hinted at, or Lorna could be written in a way that implies an impact he has on her ("This guy I used to date let me tag along to see other galaxies," blah blah blah).

    3. Leah saying today that he isn't on X-Factor doesn't mean the situation won't change tomorrow. The studio behind the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon thought they would get to keep making it out to season 3, then Disney bought Marvel and the show got canceled.

    4. Or even this: what if it's technically true in that Leah won't write it, but she's off the book after 12 issues and a different writer is set to take over that will immediately put Havok on the book.
    1) The thing about X-Men Blue is that out of Magneto, Alex and Lorna, the main character on that book was Magneto. So it's not surprising that Lorna's appearance was turned into a "Magneto fights over his daughter against the villain(Havok)" plot. It's how X-Men Red had Jean fighting over Rachel against Cassandra Nova. On X-Factor, Lorna is the main character. Things will be seen from her POV over Alex's or Magneto's or whatever.

    2) A character being mentioned every once in a while shouldn't get you so upset to the point that you think the whole book is worthless. I'm sure that even if he's mentioned, Lorna will have another sort of character arc that has nothing to do with that. The book is about investigating mutant deaths and resurrections. You really think Lorna will just not have anything to do with that and will just be there talking about Havok? C'mon.

    3) That's pretty much pick and choosing what you want to fit your narrative. Her mentioning Havok's name as in that *one of her friends she talked with likes it* is enough proof that the book is completely ruined, everything will be about Havok, it's all part of the continuing agenda against Lorna inside Marvel... But when she says that he won't actually be in the book, suddenly it's "Well, actually, this doesn't mean anything, because...".

    4) That hypothesis technically exists for every book Marvel ever publishes. You shouldn't judge the initial premise and creative team and everything based on something that doesn't have any hints of it happening yet. Especially cause you're just thinking about it to make a point.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 01-23-2020 at 12:06 PM.

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