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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I'm sure most writers don't even do that. They just form their own opinions by themselves and write it without caring what others think.
    And if they're doing or done research and thought the character through, then fair enough. But all we've heard is talking to two people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    It doesn't imo. Even if you passionately hate the ship, you need to understand that some people will like it, and it doesn't mean that they're not ~real fans~. I don't think anyone enjoys seeing Barbara get shot, tortured and paralyzed in the same way that they enjoy a romantic relationship.
    I never said they're "not real fans." You're putting words in my mouth.

    As for the other part. I mean, I probably could make that argument. The "some people enjoy seeing Barbara tortured" argument. But it's not what I was actually saying.

    There are, in fact, fans out there who think Killing Joke was one of the best things to happen to Barbara. If not THE best. They think it added character and gave her development. Likewise, there are people who absolutely love the Killing Joke animated film and think what it did with Barbara (as in, her having sex with Bruce) served as meaningful work. There are people who not only loved the Joker variant cover for Batgirl a few years back, but actively print knockoff issues with that cover (which they sell on ebay and at conventions) and create work inspired by it. I've seen people argue against Barbara being Batgirl again on the grounds that Killing Joke and what followed were too important, and letting her be Batgirl again undoes decades of development.

    And like with Havok x Polaris, I could easily paint a picture of how Barbara needs Killing Joke to come up all the time and be all or most of what she's known for. Let's workshop this. "It makes her look tougher, you know. That she's still around despite what Joker did to her. It's like her version of Bruce's parents getting shot. And it's such a famous story, you really need Joker cause he comes off as so much more dangerous for Batgirl than anyone else would. Heroes are only as interesting as their villains after all. Don't you want to read Batgirl facing off against Joker's madness? Wouldn't it be moving to see how brave she is by having her get caught and tortured by Joker but not breaking despite their past, and then how smart she is by getting herself out of it?" And none of that is attempting even squickier angles I could toss in for good measure.

    So no, I don't think my comparison is off the mark. I'm comparing two relationships that have been good for the men and toxic for the women, which a big fan could make plenty of arguments in favor of. There's no "fakeness" required. Difference is Havok x Polaris can be salvaged by future writers if Marvel starts giving enough of a damn about Lorna to do the necessary work SHE needs before doing more with the pairing. Whereas Killing Joke is pretty widely known as the event that badly misused Batgirl to benefit Joker, Batman and Commissioner Gordon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    1) The thing about X-Men Blue is that out of Magneto, Alex and Lorna, the main character on that book was Magneto. So it's not surprising that Lorna's appearance was turned into a "Magneto fights over his daughter against the villain(Havok)" plot. It's how X-Men Red had Jean fighting over Rachel against Cassandra Nova. On X-Factor, Lorna is the main character. Things will be seen from her POV over Alex's or Magneto's or whatever.
    And that take was wrong. I can't speak to Red cause I didn't read it, but on Blue, it was wrong for Lorna to be used that way. Exacerbated by the fact she's a female character being treated like a trophy or territory for two men to fight over. I don't care who the main character is, you don't treat characters that way. To make an outside note, I quite like how The Magicians had an episode devoted to "side characters" where they explicitly called out the reader/writer problem of treating "side characters" like they're only good for boosting the stories of the "main" characters and don't have values, interests, perspectives, etc of their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    2) A character being mentioned every once in a while shouldn't get you so upset to the point that you think the whole book is worthless. I'm sure that even if he's mentioned, Lorna will have another sort of character arc that has nothing to do with that. The book is about investigating mutant deaths and resurrections. You really think Lorna will just not have anything to do with that and will just be there talking about Havok? C'mon.
    "Every once in a while" is nearly all the time. Which I've gone through in past posts of this thread.

    Before X-Men Blue came out, Marvel teased at C2E2 how she was returning in that book. Yet Bunn didn't talk about her at all leading up to her return. What he did do was make an excited post on Twitter showcasing Havok-centric comics he owned as a tease for Havok's return. That was a red flag. This is too.

    I really think that Leah will base all or most of how she writes Lorna on her history with Havok. Which doesn't mean what you're saying it means. It means even if Lorna doesn't explicitly say his name, Leah will probably base how she reacts to everything by how she behaved when written as Havok's girlfriend. You don't need to ham-fistedly have Lorna say "I did this cause it's what Havok would've wanted me to do" to imagine Lorna internally thinking of what Havok would want her to do and then writing her behaving that way.

    I don't want to hear about how Lorna is Havok's cheerleader. I also don't want to hear about how she's the anti-Havok. I also don't want to hear how she can kick his ass after decades of misuse. I want to hear about her own thoughts, feelings and experiences that have nothing to do with him. And I want it with the time and platform she needs for it to be more than a tiny footnote everyone ignores for the rest of eternity so they can get back to having Lorna cry on Havok's shoulders cause it makes him look like such a big strong man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    3) That's pretty much pick and choosing what you want to fit your narrative. Her mentioning Havok's name as in that *one of her friends she talked with likes it* is enough proof that the book is completely ruined, everything will be about Havok, it's all part of the continuing agenda against Lorna inside Marvel... But when she says that he won't actually be in the book, suddenly it's "Well, actually, this doesn't mean anything, because...".

    4) That hypothesis technically exists for every book Marvel ever publishes. You shouldn't judge the initial premise and creative team and everything based on something that doesn't have any hints of it happening yet. Especially cause you're just thinking about it to make a point.
    Good point. You're right, the hypothesis does exist for every book Marvel publishes. And people saw this in action quite well until the Fox buyout.

    People on CBR seem to have decided not to remember the past 10 years just because Marvel's suddenly focusing on X-Men again. Remember when Marvel completely did away with any X-Men panels at one of the big two conventions, but had an Inhumans panel, and X-Men fans on CBR and elsewhere got so mad that Marvel added X-Men to the Inhumans panel? Remember when the doc leaked where Marvel told card artists not to draw anything with the Fantastic Four? Remember Marvel making excuses for these decisions, or lying about how such things weren't really happening?

    Marvel didn't change overnight. Marvel getting the X-Men film rights back and doing a complete 180 about how they treat the franchise as a whole doesn't mean they aren't still pulling these stunts on characters and concepts they don't like or respect. For only one decade, X-Men fans got a taste of this behavior, and it was enough to create a whole thread dedicated to "the CompleX" where fans picked apart everything Marvel said and did concerning the X-Men franchise. You can't be surprised by my reactions when Marvel is still treating Lorna the same way they used to treat X-Men as a whole before the Fox buyout.

    You think of this as a grand new era. I just see the same old Marvel up to its same old tricks. If anything, Lorna's even worse off now than before. At least before, Fox took her seriously enough to make her a star on a TV show. Marvel doesn't even think she's worth being treated like her own character whenever she appears somewhere.
    Last edited by salarta; 01-23-2020 at 07:57 PM.
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  2. #182
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Two parts, because this managed to pass the CBR characters limit!

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    And if they're doing or done research and thought the character through, then fair enough. But all we've heard is talking to two people.
    There's no evidence of Leah not doing research and thinking about the character though. She wanted to have Lorna on the book, but didn't know how to personally connected with her, so she reached out to people who did.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I never said they're "not real fans." You're putting words in my mouth.
    You definetely seem to think that their opinion is "wrong" and yours is objectively right though, considering that you think Leah talking to them is enough to conclude that she won't write Lorna well and everything will be about Havok and the whole book is a pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    As for the other part. I mean, I probably could make that argument. The "some people enjoy seeing Barbara tortured" argument. But it's not what I was actually saying.

    There are, in fact, fans out there who think Killing Joke was one of the best things to happen to Barbara. If not THE best. They think it added character and gave her development. Likewise, there are people who absolutely love the Killing Joke animated film and think what it did with Barbara (as in, her having sex with Bruce) served as meaningful work. There are people who not only loved the Joker variant cover for Batgirl a few years back, but actively print knockoff issues with that cover (which they sell on ebay and at conventions) and create work inspired by it. I've seen people argue against Barbara being Batgirl again on the grounds that Killing Joke and what followed were too important, and letting her be Batgirl again undoes decades of development.

    And like with Havok x Polaris, I could easily paint a picture of how Barbara needs Killing Joke to come up all the time and be all or most of what she's known for. Let's workshop this. "It makes her look tougher, you know. That she's still around despite what Joker did to her. It's like her version of Bruce's parents getting shot. And it's such a famous story, you really need Joker cause he comes off as so much more dangerous for Batgirl than anyone else would. Heroes are only as interesting as their villains after all. Don't you want to read Batgirl facing off against Joker's madness? Wouldn't it be moving to see how brave she is by having her get caught and tortured by Joker but not breaking despite their past, and then how smart she is by getting herself out of it?" And none of that is attempting even squickier angles I could toss in for good measure.

    So no, I don't think my comparison is off the mark. I'm comparing two relationships that have been good for the men and toxic for the women, which a big fan could make plenty of arguments in favor of. There's no "fakeness" required. Difference is Havok x Polaris can be salvaged by future writers if Marvel starts giving enough of a damn about Lorna to do the necessary work SHE needs before doing more with the pairing. Whereas Killing Joke is pretty widely known as the event that badly misused Batgirl to benefit Joker, Batman and Commissioner Gordon.
    First of all, The Killing Joke is one single story. Lorna/Alex is a relationship, that is an element of a bunch of stories. While someone enjoying The Killing Joke means they liked, well, The Killing Joke, someone liking Lorna on a relationship to Alex doesn't mean they enjoy every story that had this relationship on it. It doesn't mean that they saw X-Men Blue and were like "Great, that's why I love Lorna, that's why I love Lorna and Alex together!". So, I think the analogy is inheretely flawed for that. Because they're not two things that are as easily compared to each other as you're making it out to be.

    And then there's the view outside of meta. If we're going by the events that the characters went through. Havok and Lorna is a romantic relationship. They were together because they were in love with each other. Maybe the writing didn't hit the mark sometimes, or most of the times, or always, I don't really know. But it wasn't meant to be something negative for the characters. So someone appreciating something that made the characters happy, is not the same as someone appreciating a story where a character is brutalized and traumatized in many ways. Whether they're enjoying it because they think it's good development like you say or because they're actually Barbara haters, those are both different kinds of feelings than the feelings a person has for a relationship they enjoy. No one who consider themselves a Havok/Lorna shipper does so because they're like "Oh, their relationship is bad and toxic and awful for her but I love it for that!". They like it because they see as something positive for the characters in-story.

    For example, it's how I feel about Jean and Scott. I know that, from meta perspectives, this relationship has sometimes been bad for her. Mostly, because of how, when they decided to have him with someone else, they fridged her so he could be with another woman, and she ended up staying dead for 14 years. But from an in-story perspective, I do think Jean and Scott are soulmates that are perfect for each other whose love can get through everything. I'm not saying you should feel that way, you have every right to hate Alex. Just that it's probably how some people who like the Havok/Polaris ship feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    And that take was wrong. I can't speak to Red cause I didn't read it, but on Blue, it was wrong for Lorna to be used that way. Exacerbated by the fact she's a female character being treated like a trophy or territory for two men to fight over. I don't care who the main character is, you don't treat characters that way. To make an outside note, I quite like how The Magicians had an episode devoted to "side characters" where they explicitly called out the reader/writer problem of treating "side characters" like they're only good for boosting the stories of the "main" characters and don't have values, interests, perspectives, etc of their own.
    I'm not trying to justify what happened in X-Men Blue. Just explaining how the circumstances on that book and on X-Factor are completely different. What happened there, as awful as it was, wasn't a matter of "Havok suddenly shows up to hijack Lorna's story". Because it was really Magneto's story, and Havok was already a recurring villain, and the arc that brought in Lorna was meant from the start, even before her inclusion, to be the one where those recurring antagonists(Emma/Havok/Mothervine) were defeated.

    So, it's not "Lorna is treated like trash on her own story because they think it's all about Havok", it's "Lorna is brought in on a Magneto/Havok story and treated like trash on it". Both bad situations, of course, but the context of what the narrative really was, and why X-Factor couldn't possibly be the same, it's what I'm trying to point out.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 01-23-2020 at 11:36 PM.

  3. #183
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Before X-Men Blue came out, Marvel teased at C2E2 how she was returning in that book. Yet Bunn didn't talk about her at all leading up to her return. What he did do was make an excited post on Twitter showcasing Havok-centric comics he owned as a tease for Havok's return. That was a red flag. This is too.
    This probably has to do with how the previous line editor, Mark Paniccia, was a Polaris fan. So he hyped up her return on a con and on the cover, but the writer didn't care as much about Polaris so the actual content of the book didn't match it.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I really think that Leah will base all or most of how she writes Lorna on her history with Havok. Which doesn't mean what you're saying it means. It means even if Lorna doesn't explicitly say his name, Leah will probably base how she reacts to everything by how she behaved when written as Havok's girlfriend. You don't need to ham-fistedly have Lorna say "I did this cause it's what Havok would've wanted me to do" to imagine Lorna internally thinking of what Havok would want her to do and then writing her behaving that way.

    I don't want to hear about how Lorna is Havok's cheerleader. I also don't want to hear about how she's the anti-Havok. I also don't want to hear how she can kick his ass after decades of misuse. I want to hear about her own thoughts, feelings and experiences that have nothing to do with him. And I want it with the time and platform she needs for it to be more than a tiny footnote everyone ignores for the rest of eternity so they can get back to having Lorna cry on Havok's shoulders cause it makes him look like such a big strong man.
    Well, I don't think she's gonna do that. I don't think someone like Leah would have such a sexist take.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Good point. You're right, the hypothesis does exist for every book Marvel publishes. And people saw this in action quite well until the Fox buyout.

    People on CBR seem to have decided not to remember the past 10 years just because Marvel's suddenly focusing on X-Men again. Remember when Marvel completely did away with any X-Men panels at one of the big two conventions, but had an Inhumans panel, and X-Men fans on CBR and elsewhere got so mad that Marvel added X-Men to the Inhumans panel? Remember when the doc leaked where Marvel told card artists not to draw anything with the Fantastic Four? Remember Marvel making excuses for these decisions, or lying about how such things weren't really happening?

    Marvel didn't change overnight. Marvel getting the X-Men film rights back and doing a complete 180 about how they treat the franchise as a whole doesn't mean they aren't still pulling these stunts on characters and concepts they don't like or respect. For only one decade, X-Men fans got a taste of this behavior, and it was enough to create a whole thread dedicated to "the CompleX" where fans picked apart everything Marvel said and did concerning the X-Men franchise. You can't be surprised by my reactions when Marvel is still treating Lorna the same way they used to treat X-Men as a whole before the Fox buyout.

    You think of this as a grand new era. I just see the same old Marvel up to its same old tricks. If anything, Lorna's even worse off now than before. At least before, Fox took her seriously enough to make her a star on a TV show. Marvel doesn't even think she's worth being treated like her own character whenever she appears somewhere.
    How do I even start with this one... Yeah, there was an anti X-Men and anti F4 agenda on Marvel because of the movie rights. There's no agenda against Lorna. You seem to be convinced there is, but there's not. They just don't care about her enough. Which, while it means that she overall doesn't get all the attenton she deserves, also means that they're not actively trying to damage and undermine her character on purpose. They were actively trying to damage and undermine the X-Men and F4 franchise during the CompleX time. So, again, you have a mismatched overdramatic analogy. Lorna's problem is neglect. The X-Men/F4 problem during the CompleX time wasn't about neglect. They were paying them more attention than ever, just on a negative way.

  4. #184
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    . Lorna's problem is neglect.
    Is Lorna problem really neglect anymore? Didn't Lorna show up in X-men Blue, didn't Lorna show up in Prisoner X, Did Lorna show up in HoX and X-men, Isn't Lorna showing up in a ongoing in X-factor. While some people are living in the past of past mistreatments, Marvel has been solidly using Polaris in present. Was Lorna used badly in X-men blue? No. Was Lorna used badly in Prisoner X? No. Was Lorna used badly in HoXPox? No. You can't fix fans who isn't trying to see the positive. Lorna is the most powerful character and the biggest name in X-factor the only thing she wasn't given was the leadership role. If Polaris fans can't be optimistic about X-factor they will never be happy anything. You have enough recent positive history to show that there is a possibility she won't be used badly in this X-factor.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-23-2020 at 11:57 PM.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Is Lorna problem really neglect? Didn't Lorna show up in X-men Blue, didn't Lorna show up in Prisoner X, Did Lorna show up in HoX and X-men, Isn't Lorna showing up in a ongoing in X-factor. While some people are living in the past of past mistreatments, Marvel has been solidly using Polaris in present. Was Lorna used badly in X-men blue? No. Was Lorna used badly in Prisoner X? No. Was Lorna used badly in HoXPox? No. You can't fix fans who isn't trying to see the positive. Lorna is the most powerful character and the biggest name in X-factor the only thing she wasn't given was the leadership role. If Polaris fans can't be optimistic about X-factor they will never be happy anything. You have enough recent history to show that she won't be used badly in this X-factor
    Some of her fans do think she got used poorly in BLUE though. I think it's mixed and she was used "OK" originally in BLUE but it improved and by the time she hung out with Mags casually and then led an impromptu team of her own (on his behalf) it was very solid, just too short. The stuff with her and Havok was handled well on BLUE IMO. There's really just a cover that salarta is reacting against, and Bunn didn't create that cover.

    Prisoner X I think some people are mad Lorna was "secondary" to Lucas. I think she was used pretty well in Prisoner X although not as important as BLUE (since it was AU after all).

    HoX/PoX she barely played any role... that's the problem there. And some fans think she "seems like an obedient carbon copy" now of Magneto. I don't think that though, to me she is just embracing and accepting her lineage and not resisting it like she used to do. She sounds like any other mutant on Krakoa certainly when Hickman writes, although probably even more extreme than most. Which suits her.

    I also am not convinced she's the most powerful on this new team, I mean Rachel is here? Rachel is a god basically. But maybe Lorna will be able to use her abilities in ways that Rachel can't we'll find out. As for not being the leader I think someone else said that isn't necessarily so bad since there are lots of characters who look good on a team without being the leader.
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  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Some of her fans do think she got used poorly in BLUE though. I think it's mixed and she was used "OK" originally in BLUE but it improved and by the time she hung out with Mags casually and then led an impromptu team of her own (on his behalf) it was very solid, just too short. The stuff with her and Havok was handled well on BLUE IMO. There's really just a cover that salarta is reacting against, and Bunn didn't create that cover.

    Prisoner X I think some people are mad Lorna was "secondary" to Lucas. I think she was used pretty well in Prisoner X although not as important as BLUE (since it was AU after all).

    HoX/PoX she barely played any role... that's the problem there. And some fans think she "seems like an obedient carbon copy" now of Magneto. I don't think that though, to me she is just embracing and accepting her lineage and not resisting it like she used to do. She sounds like any other mutant on Krakoa certainly when Hickman writes, although probably even more extreme than most. Which suits her.

    I also am not convinced she's the most powerful on this new team, I mean Rachel is here? Rachel is a god basically. But maybe Lorna will be able to use her abilities in ways that Rachel can't we'll find out. As for not being the leader I think someone else said that isn't necessarily so bad since there are lots of characters who look good on a team without being the leader.
    There is a certain of amount of resetting the table that goes in these discussion tho. I get the frustration in not seeing your favorites used but you see the goal post move all the time. For example I had convo with someone about how Lorna was going to show up at some point in DoX and they were convince she wasn't going to show because Marvel hates Lorna. Then Bam in X-men 1(and in HoX ) she shows up then narrative turns from her showing up to how she is used oh she wasn't used enough so what she wasn't even expect to show up. And that stuff keeps happening all the time, You would see I wish they would acknowledge her relationship with magneto and then when they do that in HoXpoX and Xmen " hey Lorna seem obedient and carbon copy of Magneto. When something is given it is never enough for some fans, Lorna shows up in ensemble book it goes from not her showing up to why isn't she the leader or the concept the should have been about her. Yes they are problems but the goal post move all the time.

    When the narrative before hand from some fans is Marvel hates Lorna isn't going to use her period. Those fans shouldn't get to turn around have their opinion seen as valid when Marvel puts in her in a ongoing book and the writer calls her the center piece. Let the bad things actually happen first before complaining because if what you were saying before was true she wouldn't even be showing up. Anyways I will end with Polaris was suppose to be one of the possible choices for Maradauers and lets say they used her instead of Pyro do you feel that Lorna in a book at this moment with Kitty, Storm, Emma, Iceman would get proper attention? She could be showing up right now in major book as window dressing just like Bishop and Storm are doing right now. All I am saying give the writer the chance to prove her words and Lorna around eyeboy, prodigy, daken with Rachel and Northstar being the other draws means that Lorna will get real focus.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-24-2020 at 01:00 AM.

  7. #187
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    This probably has to do with how the previous line editor, Mark Paniccia, was a Polaris fan. So he hyped up her return on a con and on the cover, but the writer didn't care as much about Polaris so the actual content of the book didn't match it.



    Well, I don't think she's gonna do that. I don't think someone like Leah would have such a sexist take.



    How do I even start with this one... Yeah, there was an anti X-Men and anti F4 agenda on Marvel because of the movie rights. There's no agenda against Lorna. You seem to be convinced there is, but there's not. They just don't care about her enough. Which, while it means that she overall doesn't get all the attenton she deserves, also means that they're not actively trying to damage and undermine her character on purpose. They were actively trying to damage and undermine the X-Men and F4 franchise during the CompleX time. So, again, you have a mismatched overdramatic analogy. Lorna's problem is neglect. The X-Men/F4 problem during the CompleX time wasn't about neglect. They were paying them more attention than ever, just on a negative way.
    Yeah I don't believe there is a anti-lorna agenda. Clearly is just a case that tptb doesn't care much about her
    They simply doesn't have a direction and doesn't bother to build one for her.

    Even progressist writers can fall into some sexist tropes.

    I dodn't think she asked the information and changed idea to not write about it

  8. #188
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Leah asked her friends about Polaris, and we don't know all of what was said, or how she views her relationship with Alex. Just because someone likes a ship, doesn't mean that they can't acknowledge the problems it has. He isn't even present in the book, and even if he was, I doubt he'll be getting much spotlight. This book has Polaris, Northstar, Rachel, Daken, Eye-boy, Prodigy, and will also feature The Five. I don't think she's going to put a huge amount of focus on a character that has nothing to do with the premise.

    I'm happy that she's in a book away from Havok and Magneto at this point.

  9. #189
    Incredible Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I'm happy that she's in a book away from Havok and Magneto at this point.
    say it louder

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    I'm skipping some things because either I think I've said all I have to say, or I don't think saying more will do much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    You definetely seem to think that their opinion is "wrong" and yours is objectively right though, considering that you think Leah talking to them is enough to conclude that she won't write Lorna well and everything will be about Havok and the whole book is a pass.
    There are two levels to this. On a personal level, yes, I think they're wrong; just like they surely think I'm wrong. On a simple writer-input level, they're not wrong, but the writer asking for only one view and not its opposite is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    For example, it's how I feel about Jean and Scott. I know that, from meta perspectives, this relationship has sometimes been bad for her. Mostly, because of how, when they decided to have him with someone else, they fridged her so he could be with another woman, and she ended up staying dead for 14 years. But from an in-story perspective, I do think Jean and Scott are soulmates that are perfect for each other whose love can get through everything. I'm not saying you should feel that way, you have every right to hate Alex. Just that it's probably how some people who like the Havok/Polaris ship feel.
    I don't hate Havok. I hate what his presence has done and keeps doing to Lorna. I hate that Marvel acts like Lorna exists to serve his stories or spread his image and never have anything for herself. But Marvel makes it very hard to not sometimes mistakenly blame the character for the sins of the company and the people who work there.

    I come from a background of loving and respecting underappreciated characters. Where fans of FF4 used to disparage Rosa as a "useless damsel in distress that hinders Cecil's journey twice," I saw how often and in what ways she helps the people around her, and how the times where she "hinders Cecil's journey" were out of her control - much better than some later characters in her role who actually had a choice. Also for FF4, fans often maligned Edward for "being weak" or "being a coward." But they fail to grasp that Edward's not supposed to be a fighter like the others. He's a charming bard-ish prince. Doing any fighting at all was brave of him.

    I recognize that except for the most egregious of situations (e.g. blatantly racist/sexist/transphobic origins), every character has worth just waiting for someone who actually understands them. But in this case, the dynamics are typically written as if Havok inherently has more worth than Lorna, and Lorna is worthless if she's not being used to benefit him. I want him out of the picture because that way Marvel has to put some actual thought into Lorna's own worth. One writer writing their relationship perfectly for a year isn't going to stop every single writer after them for the next decade from falling into the same trap (or worse, eagerly diving headlong into it) and treating Lorna worse than ever before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah, there was an anti X-Men and anti F4 agenda on Marvel because of the movie rights. There's no agenda against Lorna. You seem to be convinced there is, but there's not. They just don't care about her enough.
    There's half a decade worth of Tom Brevoort trying to make excuses for why Lorna can't be Magneto's daughter, excluding Lorna from the Magnus family in multiple events, and trying to replace her with other characters in the lives of the twins that says otherwise.



    Even so, if we read all that's happened as "they just don't care enough," that's still a problem and still functions the same way. They're letting a subconscious agenda dictate their outcomes instead of a deliberate, conscious one. The only difference between the two being that at least with a conscious agenda, they've put some thought into what they're doing and why. "Just not caring enough" means they think they know everything and they don't need to think about what biases they have, if those biases are wrong, and if there's anything they can do better.

    Which, I mean, is technically their right, but the same thing could be said to excuse what Len Wein did to Batgirl ("cripple the b-") and Supergirl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    you see the goal post move all the time. For example I had convo with someone about how Lorna was going to show up at some point in DoX and they were convince she wasn't going to show because Marvel hates Lorna. Then Bam in X-men 1(and in HoX ) she shows up then narrative turns from her showing up to how she is used oh she wasn't used enough so what she wasn't even expect to show up. And that stuff keeps happening all the time
    What you're talking about would be "moving the goalposts" if the goalpost was showing up anywhere. It's not. When the goalpost is Lorna getting a solo, mini, oneshot or leading a team book (which has been my goalpost since late 2018/early 2019) to make up for poor treatment, Lorna appearing anywhere is moving from your team's goal post to the yard line 10 feet out from your team's goal post.

    Saying she's not going to show up anywhere is expressing doubt that the team is ever going to make any movement toward the other team's goal post. Wow, amazing, some movement was made. We're still 90 yards away. And it's still a long ways pushed back from where we were in 2015.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    the writer calls her the center piece.
    I've seen writers and companies proclaim similarly amazing things they planned to do with franchises and characters, only to drive them into a ditch and leave them a flaming wreck never to be touched again because they didn't want to admit they did anything wrong. I don't trust Marvel. They haven't given me any reason to trust them in the past 5 years. They've said and done more things in the past 5 years to make me doubt them than to trust them, and I behave accordingly. Again, I can't be faulted for thinking and acting in ways that they've encouraged. And at this point, for me, that means "give the writer a chance" feels like asking me to be stupid and not prepare for seeing the same thing happen for the umpteenth time in 5 years. You don't trust leaving lighting utensils out when arsonists keep dropping by and setting different parts of the house on fire. You bring it all inside, fireproof where you can and keep an eye out for suspicious behavior.
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  11. #191
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    There are two levels to this. On a personal level, yes, I think they're wrong; just like they surely think I'm wrong. On a simple writer-input level, they're not wrong, but the writer asking for only one view and not its opposite is wrong.
    I mean, I don't think Leah's intention had to do with seeing both POV about the Havok/Lorna relationship. Her intention was simply to understand why Polaris fans connect with her, and she talked to people she knew that loved the character, and one of them(or both? I'm not sure. If it's one then maybe the other one didn't had anything to do with that part) happened to be a Havok/Polaris shipper. I know it's more about the end result anyway, but you keep talking like if Leah had done something wrong and understanding the appeal of the ship was her actual goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    There's half a decade worth of Tom Brevoort trying to make excuses for why Lorna can't be Magneto's daughter, excluding Lorna from the Magnus family in multiple events, and trying to replace her with other characters in the lives of the twins that says otherwise.
    Afaik Tom Brevoort doesn't really have anything to do with the current X-books? And in the current era, and after the AXIS retcon, Lorna's place as Magneto's daughter is more strong and secure than ever. From all the problems of her latest appearances, her place and presence as Magneto's daughter has not been an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Even so, if we read all that's happened as "they just don't care enough," that's still a problem and still functions the same way. They're letting a subconscious agenda dictate their outcomes instead of a deliberate, conscious one. The only difference between the two being that at least with a conscious agenda, they've put some thought into what they're doing and why. "Just not caring enough" means they think they know everything and they don't need to think about what biases they have, if those biases are wrong, and if there's anything they can do better. Which, I mean, is technically their right, but the same thing could be said to excuse what Len Wein did to Batgirl ("cripple the b-") and Supergirl
    It would also mean that, if someone wants to use Lorna, and can possibly do something good with her, they won't oppose to it out of bad feelings against her. So X-Factor and her future appearances still have a chance of being good, cause there's no one there actively trying to screw up Lorna's role in it, or in the franchise in general.

    Of course it's not good, great, or anything. But I do think it's better than them straight up wanting the character to not get anything good and hijacking chances of that happening.

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I mean, I don't think Leah's intention had to do with seeing both POV about the Havok/Lorna relationship. Her intention was simply to understand why Polaris fans connect with her, and she talked to people she knew that loved the character, and one of them(or both? I'm not sure. If it's one then maybe the other one didn't had anything to do with that part) happened to be a Havok/Polaris shipper. I know it's more about the end result anyway, but you keep talking like if Leah had done something wrong and understanding the appeal of the ship was her actual goal.
    The ship is a thorny issue, and thorny issues need more exploration than "My friend thinks this, I'm good to go." In fact, getting that view from a friend in some respects should fuel a deeper dive the other way to counterbalance emotional weight. You're gonna empathize and be more likely to agree with what your friend says than the opposite of what they say.

    It's not "wrong" to want to know what your friend thinks about something. But when it's going to be put toward decisions you have to make, you need more perspective than that. People aren't against the ship for the fun of it. I'm trying to be clear that her views are valid, but her views aren't the only ones out there. Views other than hers (and other than mine) are also valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Afaik Tom Brevoort doesn't really have anything to do with the current X-books? And in the current era, and after the AXIS retcon, Lorna's place as Magneto's daughter is more strong and secure than ever. From all the problems of her latest appearances, her place and presence as Magneto's daughter has not been an issue.
    Brevoort's behavior was symptomatic of problems with internal Marvel culture, and those attitudes flow across offices and down the hierarchy of positions. I wouldn't think Brevoort's views mean anything for the X-books if the X-books didn't act in ways toward Lorna that make me think so.

    His views weren't merely "she shouldn't be Magneto's daughter." That was just the surface statement. The unspoken implication beneath the statement was that Lorna isn't "good enough" to be his daughter, that she "doesn't deserve" to interact with Wanda in any meaningful way, etc. Which we saw play out not just with leaving Lorna out of family events, but trying to offer up replacements for her in Wanda and Pietro's lives. I see it echoed in the sentiment of the X-books that they think Lorna's character history isn't important enough to serve a meaningful role in events, or that she doesn't have enough fan interest (contrary to everything I've seen) to do more meaningful things with her than serve as a supporting character for a book she was on 30 years ago. Brevoort made excuses, other editors at Marvel make excuses, it's all the same just with different things they make excuses about.

    The X-books acknowledging Lorna as one of Magneto's daughters is a good development. But now the problem seems to be that the X-books' views of her around Havok somewhat infect views of her around other men, including her father, wherein they act like she doesn't have her own voice or history or value when she's around them. That aside, honestly, in spite of JDW firmly saying Lorna is definitely Magneto's daughter, seeing Marvel exclude Lorna from the Magnus family in everything outside the comics makes me suspect that Marvel's gonna try to undo it once the twins are Magneto's kids again. JDW's statement only means for me that if it happens, it's not JDW's doing and he shouldn't be blamed for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    It would also mean that, if someone wants to use Lorna, and can possibly do something good with her, they won't oppose to it out of bad feelings against her. So X-Factor and her future appearances still have a chance of being good, cause there's no one there actively trying to screw up Lorna's role in it, or in the franchise in general.

    Of course it's not good, great, or anything. But I do think it's better than them straight up wanting the character to not get anything good and hijacking chances of that happening.
    Subconscious bias is insidious because you can think you're going to do something good, but if you don't take the time to question your assumptions, look into her history, think about her POV, the toxic stuff is going to find its way in. For example, Lorna leading a team sounds good on paper, but it's still bad if you end up writing her as completely inept and in need of a man to do the job in her place cause you didn't consider how she already has past temporary leadership experience to draw from. In need of improvement in places, sure, but not absolutely clueless.

    I think the jury's still out on whether or not there's someone working on the X-books actively trying to screw things up for Lorna.

    There's been several glaring absences of her in HoX/PoX/DoX content that would not have left her out by objective measures. What little she's appeared in, has been to benefit characters other than her. Which is part of the reason behind why I think Lorna's better off just not getting used right now by Marvel anyway, and for the fandom to do everything with the character until things change at Marvel. I can't trust Marvel when they think it doesn't matter that Lorna survived Genosha, flung Krakoa into space (power-boosted by other X-Men), or was the second woman to join the X-Men, at the same time they acknowledge other characters' Genosha history and showcase other characters like Dani Moonstar as X-women on covers.

    I don't see how Leah's going to do anything good for Lorna in the role she's been put in, in the book she's been put on, in this environment.
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  13. #193
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    To be fair, Brevort’s ‘unspoken implication’ could be that magneto having three kids he never took care of, makes him look like a deadbeat dad, lol.

  14. #194

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    I think Peter David approached it well for Lorna's origin story, at least with as far as he took it. The way he wrote it implies that Magneto recognized being connected to him put Lorna in danger, and so he stayed away for her good. It also retroactively goes a long way toward explaining the "Magneto robot" and Magneto not acknowledging Lorna as his daughter for decades. We can theorize that Magneto still felt Lorna was safer and better off with the X-Men while he pretended not to be related to her. And not intervening during some of the worst moments for Lorna could have been due to a couple reasons. Maybe Magneto thought those problems weren't nearly as bad as ones he would cause for her if he intervened. Maybe he saw those incidents as tests or ways for her to learn, horrible as they may be.

    Basically, I'm saying that I think how PAD handled it opened the door to explanations that don't require Magneto to be seen as an absentee father. But rather a self-sacrificing one, or one who was trying to put her on a path that he felt would help her become the best person she could be - and in his eyes better than him (as I'm sure every parent that doesn't suck would like their children to surpass them in things they consider good).
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  15. #195
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I mean, I don't think Leah's intention had to do with seeing both POV about the Havok/Lorna relationship. Her intention was simply to understand why Polaris fans connect with her, and she talked to people she knew that loved the character, and one of them(or both? I'm not sure. If it's one then maybe the other one didn't had anything to do with that part) happened to be a Havok/Polaris shipper. I know it's more about the end result anyway, but you keep talking like if Leah had done something wrong and understanding the appeal of the ship was her actual goal.
    I know that she talked to one person that is a huge Havok fan, and also a huge shipper havok/polaris. I know she likes Polaris, but I don't think she is on the same level as Salarta.
    Maybe Leah reached someone that she already knew and that liked Polaris. But I don't think this was a good idea.
    You have to read it yourself to get a idea on your own

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