Lorna Dane: Polaris Appreciation 2020

[Lucyinthesky]

Art by Manu_jammin
I don't know at all what Leah thinks of Lorna. Kind of funny because I have a good idea her general view of Rachel, Daken, etc. In terms of taking cues from anything in particular I don't see it as yet.

In terms of Eclipse/Lorna that would take too much work to create a new character and establish him. I will only say that first season Eclipse/Lorna was a relationship done right with Lorna and Eclipse both stubborn people with their own belief system who care deeply about one another.

I think this the perfect balance to have with most of Lorna´s relationships, with magneto, with Jean, with Pietro, with Havok and lately with Cylops because she honestly, for her story, it makes sense she would not be 100% in agreement with them but this doesn´t change the fact she cares about them.

They screwed up royally in season 2 and torched the ship in my eyes and it wasn't just me the popularity online of the ship cratered because they weren't honest with their issues and tried to bypass what was separating them by trying to retroactively say Lorna was the puppet of some character who wasn't thought up when season one came out.

I didn´t see the second season but it seems most people agree Lorna was cheated during the second season, imo this is what happens when a good take on a character goes back by trying to copy the comics worse stories of the character, Lorna can do without being anyone´s puppet.

With Rogue and Magneto they never tried to chicken out on what Magneto believed nor what she believed which in the end separated the two of them, but made them a pretty strong relationship if one likes them together or hates them.

Agreed

I think with Lorna and Gambit in ANXF PAD tried to depict them philosophically divided, but Lorna came off too much as 'unstable' which was a common problem in the 90s when they tried to interject conflict between Havok and Lorna.

Also agree, Lorna doesn´t need to be written unstable to make her interesting, if PAD wanted her to have a different discourse from Gambit´s he could have written it like when Lorna was on Genosha and had that discussion with Iceman about Magneto and Genosha.

Frankly I think Lorna should post X-Factor either try things out with one of the core cast who is available. In the best cases is someone with a very different worldview then her. I wouldn't mind a political relationship... think Caesar and Cleopatra or Hades and Persephone.

Anyway comments from the X-Factor artist.

Agreed I think a political contrast that it´s not a deal breaker would be good for her. Nice interview with X-factor artist

[jmc247]

I think this the perfect balance to have with most of Lorna´s relationships, with magneto, with Jean, with Pietro, with Havok and lately with Cylops because she honestly, for her story, it makes sense she would not be 100% in agreement with them but this doesn´t change the fact she cares about them.

While true I think you need to first set out what Lorna is for and I think Hickman is the first writer since Austen that has started the process of doing this. I think one can set this up around Krakoa. Hickman has been the first writer to think about what Lorna feels about humanity after Genosha in a decade and a half.

It also makes sense that she like Emma is afraid of another Genosha even though we haven't heard it from her. Magneto has let his ego rage so far he is sure he has thought of everything. However, it would make sense that Lorna fears this could be their mass grave again. That could lead to an interesting split don't you think if Lorna believes the old man isn't being proactive enough? Should they really let the murderers of mutants go?

The other direction would be Lorna wanting to live in peace among humans again. But, that is territory I think those who represent Xavier's old legacy will eventually migrate towards.

I didn´t see the second season but it seems most people agree Lorna was cheated during the second season, imo this is what happens when a good take on a character goes back by trying to copy the comics worse stories of the character, Lorna can do without being anyone´s puppet.

You are better off for not seeing the second season. It was bad enough the actress spoke out against the depiction of her character. They had her mope for most of half a season and then cry for another half of it. The only time she showed anything like the strength and intensity she normally had in the first season was having her baby in the first episode. Emma Dumont was really sad because Fox put her face on the season as in a 50 foot billboard over San Diego and the writers really trashed the character. They didn't even try to hide they were writing a wholly different character that season... or in their words we got the 'real Lorna' in season 2. How did that work out?

Also agree, Lorna doesn´t need to be written unstable to make her interesting, if PAD wanted her to have a different discourse from Gambit´s he could have written it like when Lorna was on Genosha and had that discussion with Iceman about Magneto and Genosha.

You mean the discussion with Xavier?

I will say a lot of mistakes with Lorna last decade could have been avoided if writers used her own history. Lorna's showdown with Danger and wanting to destroy her when she went out of control vs Gambit there is always another way. A perfectly understandable moment that Lorna could argue after given her experience with Genosha. But, instead it felt like the writer was just writing her hot headed an unstable and didn't have a reason to try to take out Danger other then she was angry.

Writers with Magneto work on the basis of his history. Big events (Anya's death, the Holocaust, schism with Xavier, etc) and work from there to sort out what Magneto would do. When writers don't do that with Lorna it hurts the character because she comes off incoherent both to other writers and fans. When creators and fans know what motivates her and drives her, then everything else clicks into place and actually writers would want to write her vs having editors foist her on them.

I have hopes Hickman and Leah might sort this out somewhat, but we will have to wait and see. Its clear Hickman has something in mind.

What X-Men Reload did right in his run was work backward from what Lorna had been through training with Magneto, helping lead Genosha and then seeing her people slaughtered with the memories stuck in her mind for weeks and her nervous system fried. He slowly rebuilt the character based on that experience. The problem with Lorna's past several runs is she has been either written around other characters or written as the voice of the narrator.

Don't get me wrong it hasn't been all bad the last few years, its been better for Lorna then the 90s, but she has been trapped in a similar box and Lorna's not going to catch fire until fans and writers understand her based on her history and what she believes and writers set out what that is.

[anyajenkins]

Season 2 just didn’t make sense in general...

So I’m just gonna tell this story. I’m was on eBay and saw an old gambit/ and rogue two pack action figure. I actually remembering seeing it once at toys r us back in the day and since I was a grown up with some money now, figured what the heck and I bought it. It came in, and it was gambit and rogue in the Age of Apocalypse outfits, which I thought was a tad strange for a ‘romy’ set (and the were kinda ugly honestly, lol) The description on the back of the box confirmed it was AoA, and gave the brief outline of the AoA story, but did not mention rogue/ magneto at all. It pretty implied they were still together in AoA.

I got some other AoA figures (because why not) and there was a magneto one and the description on the back didn’t mention rogue. The TAS cartoon did an AoA episode, again nothing. And it’s Storm and Wolverine who were the unexpected couple there. I think everyone knows why, Xavier was clearly the founder, mentor and ‘father figure’ of the show and the writers/producers/ toy designers knew there was no way in hell parents would go for Xavier’s ‘brother’ hitting up one of the ‘kids.’ (and kids watching would have thought it was weird as well) None of the other cartoons or movies ever got within sniffing distance of rogue /magneto either, probably for the same reason.

[Will Evans]

Is Lorna considered Jewish?

Obviously her father is.

And technically Iceman is, because his mother is Jewish.

I just never see Lorna regarded as such. Usually when the topic of Jewish female mutant comes up, it’s always Kitty Pryde.

[juan678]

complete
https://twitter.com/david_baldeon/st...40293148692480

Thanks DAHX

[anyajenkins]

Those are cute.

Is Lorna considered Jewish?

Obviously her father is.

And technically Iceman is, because his mother is Jewish.

I just never see Lorna regarded as such. Usually when the topic of Jewish female mutant comes up, it’s always Kitty Pryde.

I don’t think she’s ever been described as Jewish.

[jmc247]

We don't know what the religion of Lorna's mother is or the world she lived back then nor do we know the religion she had growing up with the Danes. Her long time boyfriend who she build her entire identity around for over three decades of her comic history was Catholic. It stands to reason from that and based on her behavior in The Twelve that whatever religion she had at an early age she converted to Havok's faith as she really was treated for thirty years as the disempowered female character who subsumes her entire identity through her romantic interest.

Since the Genoshan genocide she has shown no interest in religion of any kind and treated murderous Catholic anti-mutant zealots as a nuance to be wiped out. Based on her comments in the post Genosha era she wasn't a practicing member of any faith and certainly not Catholic as she finally started to break away from building her entire existence to be in her own words 'half a couple' and a fulfillment of her love interests personal desires.

Lorna talked about developing as her own person in the 90s, but only really started to after Havok disappeared into the Mutant X universe and she had the Havok wet blanket ripped off and had to start figuring out her own identity. Though she still held onto that wet blanket/uniform for quite some time.

Lorna still lives with the driftwood of being seen as a character who exists only to further other characters stories. It’s something she will have to overcome.

[Lucyinthesky]

While true I think you need to first set out what Lorna is for and I think Hickman is the first writer since Austen that has started the process of doing this. I think one can set this up around Krakoa. Hickman has been the first writer to think about what Lorna feels about humanity after Genosha in a decade and a half.

I hope we get to see the X-men Empyre on Genosha, to see what Lorna does back there.

It also makes sense that she like Emma is afraid of another Genosha even though we haven't heard it from her. Magneto has let his ego rage so far he is sure he has thought of everything. However, it would make sense that Lorna fears this could be their mass grave again. That could lead to an interesting split don't you think if Lorna believes the old man isn't being proactive enough? Should they really let the murderers of mutants go?

I really don´t see much ego there, JDW said all the X-men remember the world X-man made, my guess is that it helped Magneto to get into a more optimistic pov despite not wanting to leave that world himself, before that he was pretty much pesimist about mutants and wanted only to teach mutant children to defend themselves and give them a refuge on Asteroid M. All the security measures and portals and ressurections and mutant alliances should have done the rest to convince him this was it and that´s why he cares to make it work for all mutants, even the former marauders.

Lorna didn´t have a good time on X-man world and given Genosha she has a perfect reason to be doubtful about Krakoa it´s in character for her to be kind of sceptic but still content to see so many dear ppl to her happy, but given her role on Krakoa will be about being a detective, she seems to be putting her scepticisms to good use by seeing for herself what really is behind the ressurections.

The other direction would be Lorna wanting to live in peace among humans again. But, that is territory I think those who represent Xavier's old legacy will eventually migrate towards.

Yes but given all of them still can interact with the human world anytime they want I don´t see this happening unless charles, Magneto or Moira show they have a very dark agenda behind the creation of Krakoa.

You are better off for not seeing the second season. It was bad enough the actress spoke out against the depiction of her character. They had her mope for most of half a season and then cry for another half of it. The only time she showed anything like the strength and intensity she normally had in the first season was having her baby in the first episode. Emma Dumont was really sad because Fox put her face on the season as in a 50 foot billboard over San Diego and the writers really trashed the character. They didn't even try to hide they were writing a wholly different character that season... or in their words we got the 'real Lorna' in season 2. How did that work out?

Agreed, all the Gifted fans complained about this change on Lorna, they really messed it up by having her regress to a characterization that didn´t made sense for the series and in the comics was used as an excuse to send Lorna to limbo.

You mean the discussion with Xavier?

Yes, but also the disccusion she had with Iceman during the High Evolutionary arc where She and Magneto helped Icamen and Beast to get off Genosha so they could defeat HE.

I will say a lot of mistakes with Lorna last decade could have been avoided if writers used her own history. Lorna's showdown with Danger and wanting to destroy her when she went out of control vs Gambit there is always another way. A perfectly understandable moment that Lorna could argue after given her experience with Genosha. But, instead it felt like the writer was just writing her hot headed an unstable and didn't have a reason to try to take out Danger other then she was angry.

Agreed, I hate it when they do her that way when she can perfectly said her pov without having to be in one of her unstable moments, she did that with Magneto on Genosha, she can do that with Gambit and Danger too imo.

Writers with Magneto work on the basis of his history. Big events (Anya's death, the Holocaust, schism with Xavier, etc) and work from there to sort out what Magneto would do. When writers don't do that with Lorna it hurts the character because she comes off incoherent both to other writers and fans. When creators and fans know what motivates her and drives her, then everything else clicks into place and actually writers would want to write her vs having editors foist her on them.
I have hopes Hickman and Leah might sort this out somewhat, but we will have to wait and see. Its clear Hickman has something in mind.

Agreed

What X-Men Reload did right in his run was work backward from what Lorna had been through training with Magneto, helping lead Genosha and then seeing her people slaughtered with the memories stuck in her mind for weeks and her nervous system fried. He slowly rebuilt the character based on that experience. The problem with Lorna's past several runs is she has been either written around other characters or written as the voice of the narrator.

Don't get me wrong it hasn't been all bad the last few years, its been better for Lorna then the 90s, but she has been trapped in a similar box and Lorna's not going to catch fire until fans and writers understand her based on her history and what she believes and writers set out what that is.

Agreed

Is Lorna considered Jewish?

Obviously her father is.

And technically Iceman is, because his mother is Jewish.

I just never see Lorna regarded as such. Usually when the topic of Jewish female mutant comes up, it’s always Kitty Pryde.

I think only if she converted but given Magneto himself doesn´t seem to be a practicant Jewish anymore I don´t see this happening but imo still marvel could show them celebrating one of theirs festivities, maybe along with Kitty.

[jmc247]

I hope we get to see the X-men Empyre on Genosha, to see what Lorna does back there.

Right now its the story arc I am by most interested in. We will see how it goes.

I really don´t see much ego there, JDW said all the X-men remember the world X-man made, my guess is that it helped Magneto to get into a more optimistic pov despite not wanting to leave that world himself

My point was this time compared to previous times in the 90s including Genosha he is much more self assured that with Xavier's help he has finally thought of everything. So, far in Dawn of X I haven't felt the palpable fear from him that he had in previous incarnations that everything could go sideways and turn into a mass grave.



He is self assured that mutants have finally conquered death as of HoX and he and Xavier have planned for everything this time.

Lorna didn´t have a good time on X-man world and given Genosha she has a perfect reason to be doubtful about Krakoa it´s in character for her to be kind of sceptic but still content to see so many dear ppl to her happy, but given her role on Krakoa will be about being a detective, she seems to be putting her scepticisms to good use by seeing for herself what really is behind the ressurections.

Those skepticisms don't interest me. Either Krakoa and the resurrections or real or they are not. But, I don't want Lorna to spend much of an ongoing hunting for the 'truth' about Krakoa, I would much prefer she be worried that Krakoa could fail epically then spending her time trying to debunk and find the 'dark secret' of Krakoa.

Agreed, all the Gifted fans complained about this change on Lorna, they really messed it up by having her regress to a characterization that didn´t made sense for the series and in the comics was used as an excuse to send Lorna to limbo.

There is a lesson to be had from it in the comics. Write the story around the character not the character around the story (or other characters).

Yes, but also the disccusion she had with Iceman during the High Evolutionary arc where She and Magneto helped Icamen and Beast to get off Genosha so they could defeat HE.

Yes, that too, she explained pretty well she was acting there to stop the attempted extermination of the Genoshan mutants by the Magistrates, but outside of that and being where she wanted to be in her words you didn't get a great look into her thinking until after the island was destroyed what she felt about.

Agreed, I hate it when they do her that way when she can perfectly said her pov without having to be in one of her unstable moments, she did that with Magneto on Genosha, she can do that with Gambit and Danger too imo.

She should be able to explain her own actions based on her history and worldview yes. If she can't there is an issue. Lorna as a character had her most iconic storylines that really have good stuff to mine in comics that are considered outside iconic runs. That is the bad news. The good news is that Hickman likely will be considered an iconic run long term and he has a plan for Lorna and he seems willing to take risks, but only time will tell in regards to her story.

[Lucyinthesky]

My point was this time compared to previous times in the 90s including Genosha he is much more self assured that with Xavier's help he has finally thought of everything. So, far in Dawn of X I haven't felt the palpable fear from him that he had in previous incarnations that everything could go sideways and turn into a mass grave.


He is self assured that mutants have finally conquered death as of HoX and he and Xavier have planned for everything this time.

Yet when Xavier was killed he was afraid the resurrection process would/could not work for him anymore and was worried about the consequences this would bring to the balance inside Krakoa, he´s fully aware Krakoa is Charles´s project but also that they are not infallible and Kitty´s death has only reinforced this point. He also is around a lot to reinforce security like he did on Marauders and Wolverine issues which is strange given he´s not in charge of security yet this seems to be something that´s on his mind most of the time, imo he may look self assured and confident but he´s very good at showing that while hidding his real feelings.

Those skepticisms don't interest me. Either Krakoa and the resurrections or real or they are not. But, I don't want Lorna to spend much of an ongoing hunting for the 'truth' about Krakoa, I would much prefer she be worried that Krakoa could fail epically then spending her time trying to debunk and find the 'dark secret' of Krakoa.

Given Hickman seems to be playing the whole story with a sense of mystery, with some characters from Moira, Charles, Erik to Chipher and Warlock keeping secrets I think it´s interesting for Lorna to take an skepticist position, if this leads her to believe Krakoa will fail epically then is a double win imo. One thing can lead to the other.

There is a lesson to be had from it in the comics. Write the story around the character not the character around the story (or other characters).

Agreed, another way of showing this is by having the story growth from the character´s story not force the character to fit the story.

Yes, that too, she explained pretty well she was acting there to stop the attempted extermination of the Genoshan mutants by the Magistrates, but outside of that and being where she wanted to be in her words you didn't get a great look into her thinking until after the island was destroyed what she felt about.

Agreed but this was also one of the first comics I read with Lorna, it got my attention how she despite being an X-man was one of the rare characters to try and see the positive possibilities Genosha held for mutants it was dissapointing to see all that go to waste with Magneto going all "Eve of Destruction mode" but while it lasted it was something interesting about their relationship, the fact she was pretty much a student of Xavier school yet open enough to see the good points Genosha and Magneto had and that was quite a rare position to have in the 90´s.

She should be able to explain her own actions based on her history and worldview yes. If she can't there is an issue.

Exactly

[jmc247]

Agreed but this was also one of the first comics I read with Lorna, it got my attention how she despite being an X-man was one of the rare characters to try and see the positive possibilities Genosha held for mutants it was dissapointing to see all that go to waste with Magneto going all "Eve of Destruction mode" but while it lasted it was something interesting about their relationship, the fact she was pretty much a student of Xavier school yet open enough to see the good points Genosha and Magneto had and that was quite a rare position to have in the 90´s.

Either Lorna was supporting the idea of a mutant homeland or she was just supporting her sometimes dad on one of his ventures. I prefer to think of it that she was supporting the idea of a mutant homeland first and helping Magneto second.

I would rather the idea that she believes in a dream then she is just loyal to someone who believes in something. I don't want Lorna to be a parrot of Magneto nor do I want her to be a contrarian to his set of beliefs and views. In either case she has no core and she is just being written around him. She needs her own core set of beliefs and values.

[Lucyinthesky]

Either Lorna was supporting the idea of a mutant homeland or she was just supporting her sometimes dad on one of his ventures. I prefer to think of it that she was supporting the idea of a mutant homeland first and helping Magneto second.

Given at the time there was no talk at all about Lorna being related to magneto and it was until Morrison run that there was talk about her being his daughter yet given the state she was when she said that most fans believed this was just part of her emotional crisis and they were not related until Austen run confirmed this. So Yes, this is 100% Lorna believing there´s something worth to do with Genosha.

I would rather the idea that she believes in a dream then she is just loyal to someone who believes in something. I don't want Lorna to be a parrot of Magneto nor do I want her to be a contrarian to his set of beliefs and views. In either case she has no core and she is just being written around him. She needs her own core set of beliefs and values.

Agreed but I don´t think she was written as a parrot of Magneto on this story if that was the case she would have followed him to EoD like the acolytes did but she didn´t and on Krakoa given her own ecepticisms this seems to be still the case with her and it´s coherent with her story.

[jmc247]

Alan Davis was the one writer when she was on Genosha of unarguably having her want to be there to make a difference in my view. After he left because it was a collaborative story some writers tried to retcon her reasons for being there explaining that she was there to look for Havok or because she was addicted to Magneto's power. In the encyclopedia's of the 2001-2002 time frame they tried to explain it away that she was there to 'watch' Magneto. I will say when she was there it was clear they were repeating Lorna's first storyline down to the Magneto/Bobby/Lorna arguments. The family stuff was implicitly baked into the story, but not explicitly when she was there.



It was after that the family stuff was more explicitly and a bit retroactively baked into the story. It was also Morrison and Austen that both kind of indelibly connected Lorna to the island and the idea that she believed in the dream of a mutant homeland before it turned to dust. Not she was there to find Havok or there to 'watch' Magneto.

[Zelena]

Poor Logan! Always Magneto's plaything…

I see Lorna as a person who needs someone to ground her. Either she's in Havok's ambit or Magneto's… She may sincerely believe in a project but it's intertwined with feelings.
She may think that a paternal love is something more secure and lasting than a lover's love.

[jmc247]

I see Lorna as a person who needs someone to ground her. Either she's in Havok's ambit or Magneto's… She may sincerely believe in a project but it's intertwined with feelings.
She may think that a paternal love is something more secure and lasting than a lover's love.

Some background that is Bobby not Havok. She had a mental breakdown when Havok disappeared for three years (our time) into the Mutant X universe. She was talking to Havok's shirt and generally quite mad in that period of the late 90s.

Magneto after The Twelve Saga wanted to help her get back on her feet, but also save his island from being overrun by slavers who started straight up trying to exterminate the mutant population during the civil war. She didn't know she was related to him at the time, but she also was unsure of the matter. There was an element of she attached herself to another man's struggle because she didn't know what to do with herself and was failing hard. So, he teaches her how to lead an army and a nation because without her mutant controlled Genosha falls and the population is wiped out.




I have long stated that Lorna does need a major story arc she owns. We are talking something high profile on the core titles or part of a crossover. The closet she has to one is the fallout from the Genoshan genocide under Morrison and Austen's pen. I have dealt with the argument for years that Lorna needs to do her own thing. But, that typically ends up meaning wacky hijinks on a low selling book virtually no one reads and has no impact on the line.

Until the character starts having champions among the writers who develop a story arc for her that leads her into a nexus of conflict with her contemporaries as in she leads it I really don't see the character going anywhere. Her relationships with the core X-Men writers view as irrelevant and uninteresting and frankly most creative staff and fans have long viewed Lorna as uninteresting.

Krakoa is case and point of having a brilliant new status quo that Lorna utterly irrelevant to so far. Maybe Hickman has a great plan for her, maybe not. But Krakoa isn't her Genosha... she was a major figure on the Genosha and had a say. Lorna has no say right now so while I understand the push for her to be the contrarian against Krakoa they would have to have her own plan B for mutants otherwise she will be just the skeptic of a popular status quo without her own answer.

When I hear the term 'ground Lorna' it usually to me means shove her off into irrelevancy and make her the voice of a generic C list voice of reason character. She has done that before, it doesn't help her at all.