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  1. #946

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Hmmm, I'm not sure Claremont believed the X-Men only needed one token woman on the team. For starters, Jean was always supposed to be on the team from the beginning but because she was written off and drawn to leave by the time Claremont got on the book, he had no choice but to continue with that. However, he brought her back as quickly as possible in UXM 97 (the same issue he uses Lorna). And she was written out of the book because of Byrne and the second she was killed off, he brought in Kitty. And while Kitty may not count as a woman because of her age, he had no issues adding Rogue, Rachel, Psylocke, and even Dazzler later on even if Dazzler was also editorially mandated. I think it was more that he felt Lorna didn't add anything he felt that Storm or Jean didn't already add to the team, nor did Marvel ever push him to use her like some other characters (Dazzler, Longshot, etc.) so he never had a reason to develop an interest in her either.
    I'm not sure if it was Claremont or someone above him like an editor behind why the team had just Storm at first. My larger point was the impression I got regardless of how it came about. I do recall someone else saying Claremont didn't want to use Jean at all and wrote her cause editorial forced him to, but it's been a while since I saw that.

    I don't think adding female characters in and of itself is necessarily proof of anything because I've seen video game franchises like Soul Calibur and Resident Evil this past decade that added new women but had a clear bias toward men, often trying to purge or demote long-standing female characters like Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Taki, etc.

    I'm not saying "Claremont hates women." I'm saying deeper criteria is needed beyond adding a body count of women. Perhaps Claremont satisfied that deeper criteria for most female characters over the course of his run. But I felt it was important to remark on this because I've often encountered fans for various franchises who see a lot of female characters exist in something and think that's enough without considering how they're used. Often times, fans will insist having 10 female characters that only get used once or twice as supporting characters for a couple male characters is better than or equivalent to having a couple female characters with an equal amount of representation as the couple male characters.

    I think it's possible Claremont thought Lorna didn't add anything new past Storm or Jean, but if true, I think it reflects a bit of ignorance and self-imposed limits on his part. Two characters with similar traits can work toward different ends or have different views.
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  2. #947
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    Claremont did work with Jean and Lorna during the middle of the Phoenix Saga. The interaction didn't excite and failed to gain traction.

    It was tried again in the 90s and didn't excite fans and failed to gain traction.

    It was tried again in the early 2000s and again failed to excite and did not gain traction.

    You get to the point of failure when the problem is no longer any particular writer and instead its concept. Though I will kind and say that writers post Claremont were afraid to move much beyond the core concept Claremont laid down of the Summers brothers love interests hanging out which never really interested fans.
    Last edited by jmc247; 06-24-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  3. #948
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Its hard to gain traction when they arent on the same team, something they havent been on since the mid 70s

  4. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Its hard to gain traction when they arent on the same team, something they havent been on since the mid 70s
    Lorna and Rachel didn't gain traction either and they were on the same team and their relationship was also pretty similar to typical Jean/Lorna. Five years in space talking about their boyfriends on and off didn't create a relationship between them anyone actually cared about or that is worth talking about.

    I have always believed Lorna can develop relationships with other characters. Magneto after all has no problems building interesting relationships with characters who he isn't on the same team on. It can be done, but I have long since come to believe it can't be done with her being on entirely good terms with everyone. Lorna right now is everyone's friend and at the same time no ones friend.



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  5. #950
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    You arent wrong but I think she needs a permanent home where she's able to get actual development which would help those relationships. Ironically she and Rachel will both be in X-Factor and I believe its their previous time on a team together will be used to solidify a relationship between them. Also she's not Magneto and as such needs more attention in order to make a meaningful impact. Passing interactions with characters is unlikely to matter much for her when they are unlikely to be developed further

  6. #951
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    Looking at the past five decades of her history I take a dim view on the ability of Lorna to build any deep or meaningful relationships that aren’t spoon fed to the writers. Shipper and family issues sort of are spoon fed to the writers. Making friendships meaningful or interesting is hard. Lorna has been on the same team as Daken and Rachel and will be again. I hope Leah can do something interesting with them, though history is not on her side there unless she looks out side the normal box.

    Generalities and genericness are the twin curses of Lorna and relationship building. Giving her relationships depth and built in tension is absolutely necessary.

    Anyway bleeding cool talking about comics and impacts from COVID.

    The following is gossip. It should be treated as such. Nothing here is confirmed, some of it will have been through a number of filters, but here is what has reached me regarding a recent virtual Marvel Comics Editorial meeting held – I think – last week, from a number of sources.

    First up, I am told that, while this won't necessarily be seen until the middle of next year, we are to expect fewer limited series, one-shot specials and solo books featuring non-A List characters – though there may still be room for new legacy characters.

    As a result of current financial concerns, I am led to expect greater concentration on core titles, and that cancellation thresholds has been moved up. Marvel already has a relatively high minimum sales number for comic books, and they don't make a loss, but there is always minimum a profit expectation. Internally, Marvel has used other revenue streams such as collections, digital, book fairs, special projects and more, to justify publication of individual titles. That may be dropped as well, monthly serialised will have to make enough money in the direct market, as well as elsewhere.

    https://bleedingcool.com/comics/marv...s-on-the-core/
    If true I am not exactly surprised as I expected them to concentrate on the books and characters working and leave promoting new ones to some future day and date. For Lorna we will know by the end of the first arc if she and the title are working.
    Last edited by jmc247; 06-24-2020 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #952

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    Nobody here's said things along the lines of what I'm about to address, but I want to address the topic regardless.

    Some people look at past treatment of certain relationships or characters and think they're not viable or can't be interesting because of past bad use. "If it could go anywhere, it would've gone somewhere decades ago." It's a disingenuous argument. It relies on the ideas that whoever worked on it before a) made a real effort, b) got anywhere near the relationship's or character's true potential, and c) had any kind of real promotion that could let it go places.

    I don't think Marvel's given Lorna and Jean (as friends or as something more) a real chance, just as they haven't given Lorna and Wanda as sisters a real chance - as we've seen vividly by all the fandom interest in the sisters that Marvel refuses to tap into.

    I also don't think we can say Marvel's really treated Lorna as friends with anyone. Friend implies a deep personal connection, from which you would reasonably expect a lot of presence even just visually. If Marvel treated Lorna as friends with anyone, we would see her regularly interacting with them to share frustrations, give advice, serve roles in events like weddings, etc. People simply talking at her doesn't cover this; it requires a back and forth. Has any close friendship in fiction ever been well-known for how one character talks incessantly about themselves and the other just listens?

    We honestly can't say Lorna is on good terms with anyone in content sold by Marvel because for her to be on good terms, she first has to be on terms period. If she only shows up once a decade then that's not even an acquaintance, that's two bodies floating through space and occasionally passing near each other.

    That said, if Lorna were to actually be written as close to others (e.g. Jean, Wanda, Pietro and Iceman like she should be), conflict would naturally come up somewhere in a proper handling of it. That conflict could come between them as people with diverging points of view, or outside them as some external force seeks to hurt one of them and the other steps in as a supportive ally. And I stress ally, not useful tool.

    Lastly, I do think most people hired by Marvel as writers and editors could do well by Lorna if they made a real effort. But so far, I think most of them don't want to try, and it stems from a bias they have that she's not "worth it" based on how past writers and editors have treated her instead of setting all that aside and taking a serious look at Lorna for herself. The usual attitude seems to be "How can I exploit her to support my favorite characters" and not "How can I bring out the best this character has to offer, thereby enriching both her and everything connected to her including my favorite characters."
    Last edited by salarta; 06-25-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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  8. #953
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    One could potentially accuse Claremont of many things, but only wanting ‘token’ females on his team is not one of them. He inherited the team with ‘just’ Storm and gradually kept added more females and none were tokens in the slightest. Storm was clearly his favorite, and he may have disliked Lorna (more likely, just didn’t care much.)

  9. #954
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    I am not going to blame Lorna not always having an ongoing for the lack of her relationships. She was after all in the 90s on one title "X-Factor" consecutively for seven years and in that time developed no interesting friendships. The only reason any semblance of a relationship survived with Pietro and that was only because they were connected by blood later before that too was removed.

    The question I get back to is why can her father build interesting relationships with characters he is not on the same title on and Lorna fail completely to build interesting or lasting relationships with characters who she happens to be on the same titles on even over many years?

    The easy answer would be writers care about Magneto, but I don't think that really fully the answer. I think creators and the audience understands Magneto and what drives him. They look at Lorna and they see is a generic shipper character and that notion would never and will never build her meaningful relationships... not even interesting romantic relationships.

    It also helps that her father has relationship dynamics with the X-Men backed into to him having a different view on mutant issues and being on different sides once upon a time. It helps greatly relationship building when there actually is areas of contention between characters.
    Last edited by jmc247; 06-25-2020 at 12:17 PM.

  10. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I can't really say if that's the worst scene. I know it's the most common one that comes up because it so perfectly encapsulates all the problems with Marvel in only a few panels (or even just the one). But several scenes of Lorna obsessing over Havok's costume were also bad. Being subdued, put on display and having her powers stripped from her to build up Zaladane before Zaladane fought Magneto was also bad. Having all the X-Men more than willing to abuse Lorna cause Malice was controlling her body, in an "ends justify the means" (and let's not act all that broken up about it) way was also bad. Having a bunch of random people so desperate to kill Lorna out of blind hatred toward her that they're willing to die in the attempt because of "new powers" after Zaladane was also bad.

    When you have so many bad scenes, it's hard to say one specific scene is the definite worst. It's also one half of why it's not possible to just dismiss it as "mistakes of the past," the other half being how Marvel continues to treat her today. All those scenes and more fed directly into why Marvel treats Lorna the way they do now, and Marvel's shown no efforts to move forward from that past, making it necessary to keep bringing them up.

    There's many things that could be said about Claremont. Among all of them, what remains is that he clearly didn't have any respect for Lorna. My honest view is that he hated her, and wanted to tear her down. His depictions of Lorna always involve her easily defeated and humiliated to benefit other characters. He's had multiple chances to fix that too, and he's never done it, which to me says he still thinks that way about her.
    .
    No, I don't think he hated her. He used her as a plot point, though, instead of a character -- and that's a big mistake of a writer. And though I'm sure some will disagree, Claremont's days were behind him once Byrne left the book. Even the return of Dave Cockrum wasn't enough to keep the book as strong as it was -- though there were some wonderful stories from Cockrum's second stint as artist.

    Prior to the Sabre-Tooth scene, Lorna had some nice moments -- especially in G.S. X-Men 1. Yes, it was written by Len Wein, but it was actually Claremont who suggested the means of defeating Krakoa. I guess Claremont was just going for drama -- but it was at the cost of good storytelling.

  11. #956
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    70s and 80s Lorna was panned at the time by X-Men fans in the back of the comics as being sexually regressive and weak.

    She was turned into the Betty Crocker common law wife of the lesser Summers who got her personality identity and sense she is a woman by making him ham sandwiches.

    The only thing Lorna related that was praised back then was the mind controlled versions of the character (which weren't Lorna). I think Claremont had the most fun writing Malice as she actually had a personality something his Lorna or Polaris (the mind controlled Shi'ar warrior) didn't have. That Polaris stayed her code name and persona was interesting though that wasn't intended in the 80s as they intended to completely revamp her including her code name.

    I am not going to rail at Claremont for dropping the ball with the character. But, I will say there are lessons from his run. Sadly too many writers decide to re-enact his runs failed dynamics with her and her flat non-existent personality rather then realize what some successful writers with Lorna have... she needs a personality and a driving force of her own.
    Last edited by jmc247; 06-25-2020 at 02:30 PM.

  12. #957

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    I have some fan stuff to post, followed by a regular post, both of which I've kinda been sitting on for a while since I didn't feel right posting them while doing other things.

    First, a cartoonverse concept of the Magnus family, by Ferreira-404.



    Second, this creation by j_carter_x.



    Finally, this nice collection shot by 4261NN. They've done several over time but I like this one particularly. It further shows the value and interest in the sisters.

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    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  13. #958

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    Now for the regular post.

    I saw this on Tumblr recently. It's from X-Men/Spider-Man #1 by Christos Gage and Mario Alberti, which was published in 2009.



    I'm thinking about this. I'm also thinking about how, when Marjorie Liu wrote the arc for Iceman on Astonishing X-Men, Lorna at least showed up and got some lines in.

    Since Iceman's reveal as gay? The ONLY thing Marvel has done between Lorna and him has been... a single page with a single line where a bunch of other women Iceman dated also text him. Marvel's behavior toward Lorna concerning Iceman since the reveal has been to demote her from "character who had a long-standing foundational part in his early days" to "random girl who doesn't matter except for a rare name drop maybe once per decade."

    Now, Marvel probably would love for me to be the sort of person who thinks Iceman's reveal is a bad thing, because Marvel loves bringing that kind of behavior out in fans. But it's not me. I know the reveal is a good thing. I support it.

    No, the problem here is that Marvel values Lorna so little, they think nothing can be done between her and Iceman if she isn't someone Iceman can bang. Marvel's entire conception of Lorna is "property of men," and how they treat her concerning Iceman post-reveal is perfect evidence to this problem.

    Lorna was Iceman's first "love interest." She knows him better than the various women who came after. They fought on the same team, and he was part of her introduction into mutanthood. They have every reason to interact. She can better support who Iceman is than so many other characters specifically because of their shared history.

    Why isn't Marvel taking advantage of that? What thoughts do they have swirling about in their heads that make them think Lorna shouldn't interact with Iceman and let them co-develop?

    Heck, if Marvel were to take the route I personally prefer of Lorna as lesbian or bi (ideally in relationship with Jean), then Iceman could even take part in Lorna coming out and being a part of the mutant LGBT community. But even if Lorna were to be entirely het, there's still plenty of territory to explore between these two characters.

    But Marvel is Marvel. They don't respect the character, and their views on diversity tend to be shallow but just narrowly deep enough for people to think they're doing enough.

    That wraps up my regular, more serious post today.
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  14. #959

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    Had a different set of thoughts this morning. Ones that are more toward thinking about timelines and where things align.

    Lorna was introduced in 1968. The Holocaust ended in 1945; more specifically, Auschwitz closed in January.

    There's 23 years between the two dates. We know Lorna is a teenager when she's introduced, so oldest she might be is 18/19. In other words, the earliest date Lorna might have been born is 1949. I think the absolute limit on how young she could've been is 15, meaning born 1953. Meaning we have a birth year range of 1949 - 1953.

    There might be other cues to go by that I'm not considering. Maybe something specifically said in Magneto's history pins down the year. Maybe the make of the plane (if it was based on anything historical) could lead to something. I haven't put a whole lot of research or thought into figuring out an exact year.

    What brought me to making this post, really, is a combo of how close in time it is to when Magneto was in Auschwitz, and the sort of world Lorna was born in historically for an idea of what she grew up with.

    Now of course, none of this means it's necessary to time-lock Lorna's birth in the same way as Magneto and Captain America are time-locked to World War II. But I do think it's an opportunity to explore.


    It's also worth noting that Black Sabbath formed as a band in 1968. Lorna as a character entered into fiction and discovered her mutanthood at the exact same time as heavy metal was getting its start. So in that sense, a more heavy metal angle for Lorna would be astoundingly appropriate for her.
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  15. #960

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    Twitter over the past few months made it possible to see when someone retweets with comments. A common thing fans have done is made threads of posts for people to retweet their "unpopular opinion" of a character, franchise or event. Here's one for Lorna.

    https://twitter.com/blindvfold/statu.../with_comments

    Another thing that tends to happen with these threads, even though it says "unpopular opinion," they'll often actually post opinions that are very popular or commonly held anyway.

    Anyway, there's a variety of opinions voiced in the link I gave, but variations of "she's underrated" and "she deserves better" are most common among them - and I think that's a fairly common viewpoint among people.

    I think it's important to bear in mind that these kind of views don't pop up from a character getting tons of work that makes good use of them and then taking a short break. They come from years to decades of Marvel not doing enough. It's been a problem since long before HoX/PoX/DoX, and clearly many people think it's still a problem with no end in sight from any of Marvel's existing plans. Otherwise their comments would include things like "DoX looks promising though and might change that."
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