Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[RLV_1996]

I apologize, I was reading this thread for a long time, but I suddenly felt that some things by Dazai_Osamu needed to be adressed.

The argument isn't invalid because Batman is a hypocrite jerk, Bruce would look worse if he made it and Damian could call him out but the argument about the inhuman, degrading and illegal actions stands. Personally I don't see it happening, Damian won't be punished by his Gulag nor his brainwashing, too troublesome to deal with that with DC current writers, the only way I see Damian being punished it'd be if his actions were publicly exposed, in this case Batman would tell him something about his illegal actions but not because they are immoral and a violation of human rights, he'd be punished because he gave bad publicity to the superhero community, the Justice League and Batman.

Batman as a jerk is his default characterization since the 90’s so being a jerk one more time wouldn't be surprising, maybe he'll be a better father with his son/daughter with Selina.

First of all, I need to adress how you use the obvious manipulation, by calling this certainly illegal by real world standarts detention facility (or prison) as "Gulag". Please, google what Gulag is. You obviously use this termine to show how "inhumane" are Damian's actions. But Gulags are labour camps. And they were so notorious precisely becasue of insane amount of labour that prisoners needed to do there. IT simply does not suit Damian's prison.

Secondly, to explain how Damian should "face the consequences" no matter hypocrisy, you ignore the key fallacy there - you substitude concepts of how law, justice and morality works in our, real world and DC world. As dietrich said, heroes in DC world exercice things that in real world would make them "face the law" (even Superman and his Phantom Zone - how it is different??). Even DC government, body of law you might say, has freaking Suicide Squad and can't do a thing over 1000+ serial killers and psychos in Gotham, - not very lawful, realistic and straight-forward. What you said would hold if this happened in real life, but it is not out of ordianry in DC, so what "bad publicity" Damian gave to superheroes again? And who can judge such cases of superheros in DC world? It's like famous killer judging you and putting you in jail for armed assault, both government and adult superheroes are losing their legitimacy to judge in this questions, if you take all facts.

And I don't understand your very harsh judgement of Damian from moral point of view in this case, as he was not holding bank robbers or petty thiefs there, he got Deathstroke and Black mask - serial killers, pretty much undetainable by common justice system of DC world. I personally see this as a Damian trying to reach next step in progression, as previously he just preferred to eliminate the threat, but going in the wrong direction without proper guidance. Now, kid is trying hard to reach new moral hights, struggling, while criminals and killers who he could stop with one swift movement of his blade run around and murder people. Batman would certainly recognize that in his own blood son, if he was written by competent writer, as he faced this struggle on his own.

But I would agree that, of course, Damian is bad, bad boy and heed go to good, good court and face jutstice, if he suddenly teleported to our world and made that same stuff. But the key point here - is that he is out there, in DC, with morally dubious heroes and governments giving themselves bad publicity every day with their actions.

But I agree, that Damian definetly needs to faced the consequences from his dad, what he was doing with his prison is just not right. I think, Tomasi's Batman and Robin run did a decent job there, in my opinion, on Batman teaching and parenting Damian, but didn't left Damian off the hook for his actions as well. That Batman would punish Damian not becasue he broke his rules or some code, but becasue he would worry over direction his 13 years old son is going.
But current Batman firing or punishing Damian sounds to me like father, who left his family for his new lover, but suddenly coming back just once and just to go hard on his 13 years old son for being a bully and troubled child in school.

[Digifiend]

Maya now lives with the Bizarro Boys and apparently, according to the Terrifics, is having all sorts of cool, dimensional and planet hopping adventures we don't get to read about because DC doesn't like being profitable and selling stories people of all ages and genders want to read.

Those space adventures would be due to who else lives with them - Beacon, Jon's extraterrestrial former neighbour Kathy. Problem is, Nobody and Beacon would be an untested IP. If only Super Sons was still running (which it likely would've been had Bendis not taken over Superman and aged Jon up), perhaps Jon and Damian would be involved and those stories could've been seen there. Though it might have caused timeline problems for Teen Titans.

[Ansa]

King is just a bad writer.
And I do hope they break up.
I m not accepting any new bat babies, till the existing ones are okay again....

Same.
All the people who believe Bruce will be a perfect father and her brothers and sisters are all going to adore and cuddle her...do they live in a bubble or something. How heavily tinted are those shipper goggles? Do they even read comics?

This is just King baiting again. His Bruce is terrible. Before his run you could at least say with some confidence that no matter what he did, Bruce still loved his family.
King chose to go with "**** those child soldiers, the only one Bruce truly loves is Cat." That was the point I decided that Bruce sucks. It was just too much to ignore.
The way Bruce is now he shouldn't have another child. He failed the ones he already has, repair that first.

Thank god DC pulled him from the canon books.

[Korath]

Same.
All the people who believe Bruce will be a perfect father and her brothers and sisters are all going to adore and cuddle her...do they live in a bubble or something. How heavily tinted are those shipper goggles? Do they even read comics?

This is just King baiting again. His Bruce is terrible. Before his run you could at least say with some confidence that no matter what he did, Bruce still loved his family.
King chose to go with "**** those child soldiers, the only one Bruce truly loves is Cat." That was the point I decided that Bruce sucks. It was just too much to ignore.
The way Bruce is now he shouldn't have another child. He failed the ones he already has, repair that first.

Thank god DC pulled him from the canon books.

Even if he got another child, being tender and loving with her will be worst. Because the message will be that orphans and even bastard children can't ever be real family or something like that. And I find it absolutely horrible. But King's Batman is horrible, once you reach issue 50. He was interesting before that, but then it has been an absolute horror show. And the same is true for Catwoman.

I really hope his Bat/Cat will flop, whenever it comes out. I don't want it to sell in the range of White Knight, which does everything King wanted to do, but far better.

[Katana500]

Those space adventures would be due to who else lives with them - Beacon, Jon's extraterrestrial former neighbour Kathy. Problem is, Nobody and Beacon would be an untested IP. If only Super Sons was still running (which it likely would've been had Bendis not taken over Superman and aged Jon up), perhaps Jon and Damian would be involved and those stories could've been seen there. Though it might have caused timeline problems for Teen Titans.

Honestly Supersons + Beacon and Nobody would have made such a good book! It would make an awesome TV Show too!

[Ansa]

If it is any comfort to you, I'm 99% sure this is only for King's non-canon story. The future of Batman is officially in Tynion's hands now and so far it looks like he is working on breaking them up.

I had forgotten where he said it, but I found the interview: https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/...-catwoman/amp/ It's from December.

"It’s fair to say that on some level I am kind of done with Batman. The Batman that will exist now will be James’ Batman, not mine. If you want good Batman, read James Tynion and Tony Daniel, because it’s gonna be awesome. That’s where the story goes. What I have to say about the characters, I’ve said it. If you read this 85-issue story and never pick up Batman/Catwoman, you’ll still get my version of Batman."

He also claimed that you don't need to read his run to understand Batman and Catwoman.

The stories in the anniversary issues for Robin, Catwoman, Joker etc. are also not canon, because that stuff is never canon.
The Catwoman book comes out in April and nothing in Tynion's book looks like it will tie-in with King's stuff. Quite the contrary honestly.

So yeah, it's just shipper bait.

[Yennefer]

I had forgotten where he said it, but I found the interview: https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/...-catwoman/amp/ It's from December.

"It’s fair to say that on some level I am kind of done with Batman. The Batman that will exist now will be James’ Batman, not mine. If you want good Batman, read James Tynion and Tony Daniel, because it’s gonna be awesome. That’s where the story goes. What I have to say about the characters, I’ve said it. If you read this 85-issue story and never pick up Batman/Catwoman, you’ll still get my version of Batman."

He also claimed that you don't need to read his run to understand Batman and Catwoman.

The stories in the anniversary issues for Robin, Catwoman, Joker etc. are also not canon, because that stuff is never canon.
The Catwoman book comes out in April and nothing in Tynion's book looks like it will tie-in with King's stuff. Quite the contrary honestly.

So yeah, it's just shipper bait.

I disagree... A little bit....
Whatever Cat has done, while she was in her classic villain mode and, I suspect, during a period that Bruce was away, is lesser than a baby.
I mean...
Him wanting to marry her.
Him forgiving her when she returned.
Her helping him recover, win bane and Thomas and prevail in Gotham.
Her supporting him and be out protecting the streets while he is elsewhere...
They have developed an extremely close bond.
Even if the deal she made gets to damage their connection (and again, not much), he will accept her back, once with the baby.
What I want to say is that Tynion trying to break them up should be our criteria for deciding whether Helena will be canon or not...and neither their break up, given that they have already slept numerous times together....
How do we know that tynion won't get Helena in his run for his own reasons?

[Yennefer]

Even if he got another child, being tender and loving with her will be worst. Because the message will be that orphans and even bastard children can't ever be real family or something like that. And I find it absolutely horrible. But King's Batman is horrible, once you reach issue 50. He was interesting before that, but then it has been an absolute horror show. And the same is true for Catwoman.

I really hope his Bat/Cat will flop, whenever it comes out. I don't want it to sell in the range of White Knight, which does everything King wanted to do, but far better.

Deep. But true. Let's hope DC doesn't want that....

[Ansa]

I disagree... A little bit....
Whatever Cat has done, while she was in her classic villain mode and, I suspect, during a period that Bruce was away, is lesser than a baby.
I mean...
Him wanting to marry her.
Him forgiving her when she returned.
Her helping him recover, win bane and Thomas and prevail in Gotham.
Her supporting him and be out protecting the streets while he is elsewhere...
They have developed an extremely close bond.
Even if the deal she made gets to damage their connection (and again, not much), he will accept her back, once with the baby.
What I want to say is that Tynion trying to break them up should be our criteria for deciding whether Helena will be canon or not...and neither their break up, given that they have already slept numerous times together....
How do we know that tynion won't get Helena in his run for his own reasons?

The vibe I got from Tynion's run so far is that he's not interested in writing Bruce and Selina as a married couple. That was King's thing. Neither Tynion nor Tomasi have Selina living with Bruce or anything like that.
One of the first things Tynion did was to remind us that Selina used to be a serious criminal and that her past comes back to haunt her. Her relationship with Bruce is shown to be fragile.
Selina isn't demonized or anything, but it's not the glorification we got from King. Selina wanted to hide her past with the Designer from Bruce at first before she realized she had to tell him and Penguin got to Bruce first. Then he got to Riddler's hideout first, where she showed up calling for "Eddie". Think of that what you will.
Solicitations and covers are building up to the Joker War and hint at a breakup, Bruce will have to face the Joker alone. I don't see Tynion squeezing Helena into that story.

The line in Pennyworth RIP from Barbara about Bruce taking a vacation to the beach and getting Alfred killed also makes me believe that Tynion and Tomasi had...thoughts about King's anime beach episode. Pennyworth RIP isn't that kind to King's Batman in general tbh.

Selina's own book still takes place in the time before she brought Bruce to Paris and the solicitations for May that are about a story set after City of Bane have her pulling heists again. Selina seems to be back to doing what she loves.

And if DC planned to introduce a baby Helena into main continuity soon they wouldn't let King announce it just like that via a pic on twitter. Either hints come from Tynion or Tomasi or it doesn't matter.

[Ansa]

Deep. But true. Let's hope DC doesn't want that....

I mean...love it or hate it, but Pennyworth RIP made it pretty clear that right now Tynion and Tomasi think that what Bruce has done to his family since Rebirth makes him a bad father and leader. And they are on the main books.
I don't see them introducing Helena to change that. They made it clear the responsibility falls on Bruce. He has to fix his relationship with them and make an effort. Bruce being a good father to a new baby isn't a solution to the conflicts they introduced.

[RLV_1996]

I mean...love it or hate it, but Pennyworth RIP made it pretty clear that right now Tynion and Tomasi think that what Bruce has done to his family since Rebirth makes him a bad father and leader. And they are on the main books.
I don't see them introducing Helena to change that. They made it clear the responsibility falls on Bruce. He has to fix his relationship with them and make an effort. Bruce being a good father to a new baby isn't a solution to the conflicts they introduced.

I would love to see Helena Wayne come to canon. But I personally think, Tynion and Tomasi made a correct judgement of current Bruce character. Considering his negligence of his wards and teenage son, plus his personal emotional issues, lack of empathy, poor judgement, short temper and ect - I afraid he would do a worse job with Helena than even Talia did with Damian.

Sure, not all of Bruce’s current character flaws are Tom King’s doing. But he set the trend in main books and seems very proud of it.
I personally can’t stand what he did with Thomas Wayne, for cheap drama. That’s what you would call character assassination.

[AmiMizuno]

I have heard they are making Helena cannon.

In terms of the Batfam who is Damian most close to? I notice that he at times he isn’t close to his father?

[RLV_1996]

I have heard they are making Helena cannon.

In terms of the Batfam who is Damian most close to? I notice that he at times he isn’t close to his father?

I would say Damian is closest to Nightwing, because Dick brought the best in Damian during his run as Batman.

But Damian was actually starting to get along with Bruce as well, before rebirth. They were still on decent ground during Super-sons, but then multiple dramas started to happen non-stop, without authors willing to write Bruce and Damian actually talking to each other in any issue. So, they kinda drifted apart, from what I’ve got.

Now we have another drama with Damian and his prisons.

[Yennefer]

The vibe I got from Tynion's run so far is that he's not interested in writing Bruce and Selina as a married couple. That was King's thing. Neither Tynion nor Tomasi have Selina living with Bruce or anything like that.
One of the first things Tynion did was to remind us that Selina used to be a serious criminal and that her past comes back to haunt her. Her relationship with Bruce is shown to be fragile.
Selina isn't demonized or anything, but it's not the glorification we got from King. Selina wanted to hide her past with the Designer from Bruce at first before she realized she had to tell him and Penguin got to Bruce first. Then he got to Riddler's hideout first, where she showed up calling for "Eddie". Think of that what you will.
Solicitations and covers are building up to the Joker War and hint at a breakup, Bruce will have to face the Joker alone. I don't see Tynion squeezing Helena into that story.

The line in Pennyworth RIP from Barbara about Bruce taking a vacation to the beach and getting Alfred killed also makes me believe that Tynion and Tomasi had...thoughts about King's anime beach episode. Pennyworth RIP isn't that kind to King's Batman in general tbh.

Selina's own book still takes place in the time before she brought Bruce to Paris and the solicitations for May that are about a story set after City of Bane have her pulling heists again. Selina seems to be back to doing what she loves.

And if DC planned to introduce a baby Helena into main continuity soon they wouldn't let King announce it just like that via a pic on twitter. Either hints come from Tynion or Tomasi or it doesn't matter.

Yes! This is the reassurance I was looking for!!! :P

[Yennefer]

I would say Damian is closest to Nightwing, because Dick brought the best in Damian during his run as Batman.

But Damian was actually starting to get along with Bruce as well, before rebirth. They were still on decent ground during Super-sons, but then multiple dramas started to happen non-stop, without authors willing to write Bruce and Damian actually talking to each other in any issue. So, they kinda drifted apart, from what I’ve got.

Now we have another drama with Damian and his prisons.

Thomas was they key in making Bruce forget Batman. Not Selina.... His character was a great chance for the character development of the whole batfam. THIS would made interesting and profitable comics, cause we would see so many dynamics between characters... Imagine how Thomas and Damian would interact and how this man -who shaped Bruce at some grade- would affect his personality AND development.

So yeah, I totally agree with you!