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  1. #871
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    Honestly I thought Damian would be fired by Bruce because his Gulag (his inhuman prison) and the brainwashing thing which is worse than his private prison, but if he quitted as Robin as a kind of atonement, it'd be a bit cheesy but acceptable. I thought the former would be more fitting with the 5G idea, like Dick doesn't want to be Batman, and neither does Tim, Jason isn't an option and if Damian were fired, he wouldn't either so this way Luke Fox can ascend as the Dark Knight.

  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    Honestly I thought Damian would be fired by Bruce because his Gulag (his inhuman prison) and the brainwashing thing which is worse than his private prison, but if he quitted as Robin as a kind of atonement, it'd be a bit cheesy but acceptable. I thought the former would be more fitting with the 5G idea, like Dick doesn't want to be Batman, and neither does Tim, Jason isn't an option and if Damian were fired, he wouldn't either so this way Luke Fox can ascend as the Dark Knight.
    The problem with Bruce firing Damian lies with Bruce doing so much shady stuff himself, including secret prisons, lies and torture. And Bruce's actions caused way more damage. In my eyes he doesn't really have the right to punish Damian, especially because he failed him as a father and mentor.

  3. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    I don't think King's a bad writer, per se, and I don't think finally going all the way with BatCat after decades of teasing was a bad idea. His Batman run and Heroes in Crisis make me think he's a lot like Bendis. He's a talented guy with good ideas or ideas that at least sound good on paper....but then he completely fumbles the execution.

    I'm still in the boat with people who wanna see Helena. Even if we don't get to have her really do anything until years down the line. Just having her exist is enough for me right now.
    Nah, sorry. I don't want to see her. I just want batcat and everything about it gone at this point.

  4. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    The problem with Bruce firing Damian lies with Bruce doing so much shady stuff himself, including secret prisons, lies and torture. And Bruce's actions caused way more damage. In my eyes he doesn't really have the right to punish Damian, especially because he failed him as a father and mentor.
    That's a common fallacy called the appeal to hypocresy and it's about someone who intends to discredit an argument because a hypocrite is making it but the moral character or actions of the speaker aren't relevant to the logic of the argument I mean this: Bruce is a hypocrite and has failed as mentor but Damian's actions were terrible, inhuman, illegal and deserving of consequences and Robin is Batman's sidekick so even with all his BS Bruce has the right to take Robin away and honestly it's a pretty minor punishment, I mean he should face the law but he wouldn't and in Rebirth they don't really work as the dynamic duo, it could be better for Damian to follow his own path instead of Batman or Al Ghul's way.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-19-2020 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    That's a common fallacy called the appeal to hypocresy and it's about someone who intends to discredit an argument because a hypocrite is making it but the moral character or actions of the speaker aren't relevant to the logic of the argument I mean this: Bruce is a hypocrite and has failed as mentor but Damian's actions were terrible, inhuman, illegal and deserving of consequences and Robin is Batman's sidekick so even with all his BS Bruce has the right to take Robin away and honestly it's a pretty minor punishment, I mean he should face the law but he wouldn't and in Rebirth they don't really work as the dynamic duo, it could be better for Damian to follow his own path instead of Batman or Al Ghul's way.
    ...did I ever say Damian shouldn't be punished? Calm down.
    I just think Bruce doesn't have the right to fire him, unless he looks at his own actions and decides to retire. And I will stand by that.

    And I don't know where you're coming from, but where I'm from the parent is responsible for his children. So yeah, I'm blaming Bruce for failing to look after his minor child.

  6. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    Honestly I thought Damian would be fired by Bruce because his Gulag (his inhuman prison) and the brainwashing thing which is worse than his private prison, but if he quitted as Robin as a kind of atonement, it'd be a bit cheesy but acceptable. I thought the former would be more fitting with the 5G idea, like Dick doesn't want to be Batman, and neither does Tim, Jason isn't an option and if Damian were fired, he wouldn't either so this way Luke Fox can ascend as the Dark Knight.

    can i ask did Clark and the rest of the league resign when they were brainwashing people including heroes?
    batman has two Jails and has had for the longest time. It's standard bat procedure.
    We've seen Alfred torture and mock a crying Penguin in one of those jails.
    I really would like to answer why when Damian a 13yr old who's still learning follows in the foot steps of these heroes and comes out the other side doing the more heroic thing it's criticised?

    Did you forget that those guys did that and still didn't even for a second try to atone?

    i do agree that it seems this whole thing might be to pave the way for 5g

    It was necessary to get rid of Dick and damian the 2 heirs to the cowl and the 2 who have shown that they can do the job even if Damian's was only for 3 nights.

    jason isn't interested
    Tim isn't up to the job the last time he tried he lasted all of 10 mins before Damian had to come and save him when Jason left him for dead. not to mention that i don't see Bruce letting Rebirth Tim take over with him being open to working with fascists and his future self being an actual fascist who kills people for things they might do not for actual crimes.

    Damian leaving the role presents him in a more favourable light than the adult heroes who have made the same mistake in the past and the ones like Bruce who are so blinded they can't even recognise that they are doing wrong.

    Damian unlike Bruce has been shown to question his methods so makes sense


    If I was DC I'd have Tim become Robin for Luke Fox.

    All Tim ever wanted was to be Robin. Sure he'd be 30+ when 5G rolls around but who cares.
    Last edited by dietrich; 02-19-2020 at 03:42 PM.

  7. #877
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    That's a common fallacy called the appeal to hypocresy and it's about someone who intends to discredit an argument because a hypocrite is making it but the moral character or actions of the speaker aren't relevant to the logic of the argument I mean this: Bruce is a hypocrite and has failed as mentor but Damian's actions were terrible, inhuman, illegal and deserving of consequences and Robin is Batman's sidekick so even with all his BS Bruce has the right to take Robin away and honestly it's a pretty minor punishment, I mean he should face the law but he wouldn't and in Rebirth they don't really work as the dynamic duo, it could be better for Damian to follow his own path instead of Batman or Al Ghul's way.
    That still doesn't make it invalid. Bruce has no grounds to reprimand Damian since he has always had secret prisons. The Robins who are learning from him are aware of and are often required to engage with said prison and their prisoners. Just like having eyes on everyone AKA Breach/invasion of privacy which is against the law and a common batman method.

    Batman and his family do a lot of things that are not right by law or ethically. Which is why Damian isn't the only one of batman's proteges to have an illegal jail

    Robin is the protege and Batman is the mentor so the mentor can not criticise the protege for following in the the mentors footsteps especially when the protege is one who was raised in an abnormal environment and is used to a different way of life.

    Damian is still grappling with unlearning what was his normal eg to ascend one has to kill and drink the blood of the one they wish to usurp.

    It normal for parents to arrange for people to kill you
    love is conditional
    I could go on. The important thing is that Damian unlike Bruce realises that what he's doing isn't right so he give up the mantle. Bruce still doesn't realise that holding people in illegal jails is bad. Hopefully he learns from Damian.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how the writers have Bruce handle this in light of how they revealed Damian's prison a few weeks after we saw Alfred taunting Penguin in Bruvce's jail. I don't think he'd have any valid arguments but who knows

    Robin has been it's own hero since Carrie Kelly. DC loved Frank Miller's concept so much that they stole the whole thing aside from gender and glasses and used it for Tim. Selling him as the 1st solo Robin.

    Sadly DC and writers are too wrapped up in legacy when it comes to Damian. Wayne, Al Ghul and in Rebirth He's also now the heir to Nightwing.

    And don't get me started on the whole Deathstroke wants Robin that Priest started.

    I guess the pros are that writers are very interested and are expanding his ties even if it's still legacy related. I don't know what's better but I know that a lot of writers are interested in his character from a legacy point of view [9 have written legacy type stories with him outside of his regular series like TT,SS and outside of the main Batman books since Rebirth]
    So long as we keep getting interesting stories that grow his character then It's cool.
    Last edited by dietrich; 02-19-2020 at 03:45 PM.

  8. #878
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    What's this? Damian gave up Robin as punishment for his mistake? That's quite the evolution for the Character.

    I hope it's just for 5G I like Damian as Robin. Jarro is sweet but Damian is just Robin.

  9. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That still doesn't make it invalid. Bruce has no grounds to reprimand Damian since he has always had secret prisons. The Robins who are learning from him are aware of and are often required to engage with said prison and their prisoners. Just like having eyes on everyone AKA Breach/invasion of privacy which is against the law and a common batman method.

    Batman and his family do a lot of things that are not right by law or ethically. Which is why Damian isn't the only one of batman's proteges to have an illegal jail

    Robin is the protege and Batman is the mentor so the mentor can not criticise the protege for following in the the mentors footsteps especially when the protege is one who was raised in an abnormal environment and is used to a different way of life.

    Damian is still grappling with unlearning what was his normal eg to ascend one has to kill and drink the blood of the one they wish to usurp.

    It normal for parents to arrange for people to kill you
    love is conditional
    I could go on. The important thing is that Damian unlike Bruce realised that what he was doing wasn't right so he gave up the mantle. Bruce still doesn't realise that holding people in illegal jails is bad. Hopefully he learns from Damian.

    I was looking forward to see how the writers would have Bruce handle this in light of how they revealed Damian's prison a few weeks after we saw Alfred taunting Penguin in Bruvce's jail. I didn't think he'd have any valid arguments and it looks like I was right.

    Robin has been it's own hero since Carrie Kelly. DC loved Frank Miller's concept so much that they stole the whole thing aside from gender and glasses and used it for Tim. Selling him as the 1st solo Robin.

    Sadly DC and writers are too wrapped up in legacy when it comes to Damian. Wayne, Al Ghul and in Rebirth He's also now the heir to Nightwing.

    And don't get me started on the whole Deathstroke wants Robin that Priest started.

    I guess the pros are that writers are very interested and are expanding his ties even if it's still legacy related. I don't know what's better but I know that a lot of writers are interested in his character from a legacy point of view [9 have written legacy type stories with him outside of his regular series like TT,SS and outside of the main Batman books since Rebirth]
    So long as we keep getting interesting stories that grow his character then It's cool.
    I wonder we don't talk more about Tim being a Carrie rip off. I think that ASBaR turned out how it did because Miller was upset with DC ripping him off and because they corrupted his concept.

    Old out of date Bruce needing Carrie made sense, A father grieving his child needing a random stranger doesn't make sense in particular when he had another son still living.

  10. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    What's this? Damian gave up Robin as punishment for his mistake? That's quite the evolution for the Character.

    I hope it's just for 5G I like Damian as Robin. Jarro is sweet but Damian is just Robin.
    We don't know how it's going to happen yet, we're just speculating. At least I am, maybe someone else knows more.
    Damian giving up the mantle voluntarily and choosing to take responsibility sounds better than getting fired by a guy who failed him as a mentor and role model.

  11. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    can i ask did Clark and the rest of the league resign when they were brainwashing people including heroes?
    batman has two Jails and has had for the longest time. It's standard bat procedure.
    We've seen Alfred torture and mock a crying Penguin in one of those jails.
    I really would like to answer why when Damian a 13yr old who's still learning follows in the foot steps of these heroes and comes out the other side doing the more heroic thing it's criticised?

    Did you forget that those guys did that and still didn't even for a second try to atone?

    i do agree that it seems this whole thing might be to pave the way for 5g

    It was necessary to get rid of Dick and damian the 2 heirs to the cowl and the 2 who have shown that they can do the job even if Damian's was only for 3 nights.

    jason isn't interested
    Tim isn't up to the job the last time he tried he lasted all of 10 mins before Damian had to come and save him when Jason left him for dead. not to mention that i don't see Bruce letting Rebirth Tim take over with him being open to working with fascists and his future self being an actual fascist who kills people for things they might do not for actual crimes.

    Damian leaving the role presents him in a more favourable light than the adult heroes who have made the same mistake in the past and the ones like Bruce who are so blinded they can't even recognise that they are doing wrong.

    Damian unlike Bruce has been shown to question his methods so makes sense


    If I was DC I'd have Tim become Robin for Luke Fox.

    All Tim ever wanted was to be Robin. Sure he'd be 30+ when 5G rolls around but who cares.
    Number one, being crítical of Damian it isn't an excuse for the heroes who brainwashed other heroes, even if DC treated the failed brainwashing as enough punishment, and all their other illegal actions more or less are ignored at the end of the day, DC doesn't go deeper in that possible plot and I think the reason is many heroes would end up as huge hypocrites it'd be like 'I'm a hero and I've won and as enforcement agencies and correction departments are useless I'll punish the villains as I see fit'. Bruce and his illegal prison and torture as a method of gaining info should be adressed in universe, in fact, this would be a good point for Damian the 'you're firing me but you the same, you are worse because you grew up knowing what’s acceptable in society and the value of human rights.

    Battle for the cowl was a mess Jason was super crazy in a too convenient way, Dick was acting as he didn't remember what had happened with Bat Azrael and Tim had the idiot ball for most of that arc.

    Tim shouldn't be Batman, him as future Batman ended up as well-intentioned extremist or a fascist, and as you said someone should remember he only wanted to be Robin, Damian future as Batman it isn't that good, he'll burn half of Gotham or sell his soul because he isn't as good as Dick or Bruce or he'll quit and become the new Demon head a lot less crazy than his grandfather or with a lot less Lazarus pit baths.

    At this point I wouldn't be surprise if Tim and Damian end up being the same age, after all they had a 7 years gap before Flashpoint and now it's 3 years gap.

    Maybe Luke Fox as Batman will be like Bat Azrael version 2.0
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-19-2020 at 06:25 PM.

  12. #882
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I got a Maya related question after reading the first half of RSOB


    Maya and Damian temporarily parted ways and she apparently went to look for her mother. Did she ever mention whether or not she found her?

  13. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That still doesn't make it invalid. Bruce has no grounds to reprimand Damian since he has always had secret prisons. The Robins who are learning from him are aware of and are often required to engage with said prison and their prisoners. Just like having eyes on everyone AKA Breach/invasion of privacy which is against the law and a common batman method.

    Batman and his family do a lot of things that are not right by law or ethically. Which is why Damian isn't the only one of batman's proteges to have an illegal jail

    Robin is the protege and Batman is the mentor so the mentor can not criticise the protege for following in the the mentors footsteps especially when the protege is one who was raised in an abnormal environment and is used to a different way of life.
    The argument isn't invalid because Batman is a hypocrite jerk, Bruce would look worse if he made it and Damian could call him out but the argument about the inhuman, degrading and illegal actions stands. Personally I don't see it happening, Damian won't be punished by his Gulag nor his brainwashing, too troublesome to deal with that with DC current writers, the only way I see Damian being punished it'd be if his actions were publicly exposed, in this case Batman would tell him something about his illegal actions but not because they are immoral and a violation of human rights, he'd be punished because he gave bad publicity to the superhero community, the Justice League and Batman.

    Batman as a jerk is his default characterization since the 90’s so being a jerk one more time wouldn't be surprising, maybe he'll be a better father with his son/daughter with Selina.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-19-2020 at 06:29 PM.

  14. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    I got a Maya related question after reading the first half of RSOB


    Maya and Damian temporarily parted ways and she apparently went to look for her mother. Did she ever mention whether or not she found her?
    Yes. However, her mother lives in League of Assassins territory (which is basically everywhere not supervised by heroes), as Talia helpfully pointed out when accusing Maya of supporting Den Durga. Add in that Maya doesn't know her mom, and most people aren't prepared to suddenly have a teenager show up, especially one as independent and self sufficient as Maya, and you have a recipe for a dead at the start relationship.

    Maya now lives with the Bizarro Boys and apparently, according to the Terrifics, is having all sorts of cool, dimensional and planet hopping adventures we don't get to read about because DC doesn't like being profitable and selling stories people of all ages and genders want to read.

  15. #885
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Yes. However, her mother lives in League of Assassins territory (which is basically everywhere not supervised by heroes), as Talia helpfully pointed out when accusing Maya of supporting Den Durga. Add in that Maya doesn't know her mom, and most people aren't prepared to suddenly have a teenager show up, especially one as independent and self sufficient as Maya, and you have a recipe for a dead at the start relationship.
    Thanks. Normally I'd say that I don't know how I missed all that the first time I went through this series. But I vividly remember starting to lose interest after Issue 6, which felt like the better stopping point to me.

    Maya now lives with the Bizarro Boys and apparently, according to the Terrifics, is having all sorts of cool, dimensional and planet hopping adventures we don't get to read about because DC doesn't like being profitable and selling stories people of all ages and genders want to read.
    Yeah as much as I don't like the Bizzaro Boys (at least not enough to read a whole series with them in it), I like Maya enough to financially support anything she's a part of lol

    I still think it would have been cool to see her on Birds of Prey or Outsiders.

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