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  1. #916
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RLV_1996;4846881]
    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post

    Lol, I thought Timmy fans already got over Damain.
    The cool ones have but some haven't. It's made worse by DC's handling of Tim. Every time they make the wrong choice with Tim or make the right choice with Damian the hate intensifies.

    which is understandable but then you get the ones who lost their shit when Tim and Dick called Damian cute in HIC or that Damian is drawn small and babyfaced while Tim is drawn like a 16 yr old.

    I mean WTF.

    Some fans live in a perpetual state of salt. DC doesn't help by forcing Robin fans to be in competition. The way some Tim fans see it if not for Damian then Tim would be the Robin. Tim would be in the movies and stuff like the Harley show etc

    In reality if it wasn't Damian it wouldn't be tim. It'd be Duke. DC approved Duke over Tim and Damian in the new 52. Damian isn't Tim's problem sadly DC is DC and WB don't want him as Robin so much so they even erased him as Robin but some fans don't want to accept that.

    When some fans voice certain opinions you can tell they are skewed by bias to a point where there's no hope so i don't even bother responding or I respond but keep it brief.
    Last edited by dietrich; 02-21-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  2. #917
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    The argument isn't invalid because Batman is a hypocrite jerk, Bruce would look worse if he made it and Damian could call him out but the argument about the inhuman, degrading and illegal actions stands. Personally I don't see it happening, Damian won't be punished by his Gulag nor his brainwashing, too troublesome to deal with that with DC current writers, the only way I see Damian being punished it'd be if his actions were publicly exposed, in this case Batman would tell him something about his illegal actions but not because they are immoral and a violation of human rights, he'd be punished because he gave bad publicity to the superhero community, the Justice League and Batman.

    Batman as a jerk is his default characterization since the 90ís so being a jerk one more time wouldn't be surprising, maybe he'll be a better father with his son/daughter with Selina.
    It still makes it invalid since he's Damian's teacher. You can't call out somone who is suppossed to be learning from you for learning form you. Hypocrite or not.

    I doubt he'll ever be a better father but hopefully it turn out that Helena Kyle was a Wayne all along that way we get Damian and helena team ups like we did in the past, less chances of her getting erased and the tease of Superman finding bruce's long lost daughter to help Damian will be more likely to be true.

    Damian loved having a sister. it gave him joy and right now he needs all the joy he can get.

  3. #918
    Amazing Member Yennefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    It still makes it invalid since he's Damian's teacher. You can't call out somone who is suppossed to be learning from you for learning form you. Hypocrite or not.

    I doubt he'll ever be a better father but hopefully it turn out that Helena Kyle was a Wayne all along that way we get Damian and helena team ups like we did in the past, less chances of her getting erased and the tease of Superman finding bruce's long lost daughter to help Damian will be more likely to be true.

    Damian loved having a sister. it gave him joy and right now he needs all the joy he can get.
    Wait....
    Superman looking for Bruce's daughter is canon, non-canon, or a speculation?

  4. #919
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yennefer View Post
    Wait....
    Superman looking for Bruce's daughter is canon, non-canon, or a speculation?
    Canon but hasn't happened yet. It was the written plan for 5G or post 5G in Doomsday Clock's last issue.

    That said, now with Didio the co-publisher is out of DC, the actual future is again up in the air.

  5. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by RLV_1996 View Post

    You obviously use this termine to show how "inhumane" are Damian's actions. But Gulags are labour camps. And they were so notorious precisely becasue of insane amount of labour that prisoners needed to do there. IT simply does not suit Damian's prison.
    Gulag, as you got, was used not as labour camps but as a way to show the degrading conditions and illegal detentions of the place Damian kept. I found Gulag pictured the idea right.

    As dietrich said, heroes in DC world exercice things that in real world would make them "face the law" (even Superman and his Phantom Zone - how it is different??). What you said would hold if this happened in real life, but it is not out of ordianry in DC, so what "bad publicity" Damian gave to superheroes.
    'Face consequences' in universe is a lot like you say, in fact, in DC if you are a hero and you act illegal or immorally you may face scorn or be considered less trustworthy for a little while but in the end the next crisis or big bad you are forgiven and your actions are ignored, and if you're a villain with a name well you get paid hollidays to prison, Arkham or if you're unlucky, you are sent to Suicide Squad but in the end you'll be free.

    And I don't understand your very harsh judgement of Damian from moral point of view in this case, as he was not holding bank robbers or petty thiefs there, he got Deathstroke and Black mask - serial killers, pretty much undetainable by common justice system of DC world. I personally see this as a Damian trying to reach next step in progression, as previously he just preferred to eliminate the threat, but going in the wrong direction without proper guidance.
    I agreed Damian is better than his first appearances and his default 'killed the scum', but it's the standard of a guy who has been Robin like ten years so low and it can be summed up as 'he doesn't kill anymore', seriously is that the standard? Being a hero is going beyond 'thou shalt not kill', it's a step and an important step but it isn't enough, he already had his redemption arc, he has been a while in universe with Batman, etc. His motives aren't bad, he wants to solve the revolving prison door trouble but his actions are terrible because he ended up acting as wicked, selfish and egocentric as the criminals he caught, his behavior was almost exactly villain-like. I'm harsh because the issue is fundamental for the character and with that 5G in the future, the sidekicks and the others heroes' fate is unclear, and I'd like something worth reading for them.

    Batman would punish Damian not becasue he broke his rules or some code, but becasue he would worry over direction his 13 years old son is going.
    But current Batman firing or punishing Damian sounds to me like father, who left his family for his new lover, but suddenly coming back just once and just to go hard on his 13 years old son for being a bully and troubled child in school.
    Current Batman is an ass but this kind of Batman has been here for a while and honestly I don't think he'll get better in the near future.

    The bad publicity is more a hypothetical case, if Damian's prison and brainwashing were made public, who would take the burden aren't the teen titans, neither Robin but the Justice League, they would be the focus of the possible critic and I imagine a villain with with publicity telling people how uncontrollable and powerful heroes are, they need to be restrained in the case of a new Robin's prison, the heroes need to have watchers... The heroes can have their secret prisons but they aren't proudly announcing them to the public.

  6. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian and Jon don't balance each other out since we've never seen them when they weren't caricatures of themselves. They are not supposed to balance each other out.

    Damian has never stopped being a butt hole just like Bruce has always been a butt hole and I frankly dislike it when fans expect him to stop been one. Some people are just arse's. Damian, Bruce, Guy, Clark before PC they are all ares holes and that is who they are. Damian is supposed to be a difficult to like and an arsehole. that;s him. If you ever read a Damian with his arsehole qualities significantly dialled down then that Damian is OCC. Eg even you note that Supersons Damian is toned down. That is deliberately watered Damian

    Dick and Tim are nice, Jason is regular I don't need another regular or nice robin. Heroes don't have to be likeable or nice. Often people are asreholes so it's important that that's reflected in comics.

    Damian is closer to Dick than anyone else so we are already there. Dick is his friggin conscience.
    That's what makes Damian interesting, he's a jerk who is trying to become a good person or at least a less bad one. There are jerk characters and you like them because they are authentic in their jerkish way and they are horrible and once in a blue moon they faced consequences and it's right, but after that they are still jerks.

    Supersons is a great disservice for Damian, the most forced 'friendship' ever literally their fathers pushed that friendship, Jon was this generic cute and dull kid who always ended up doing what Damian wanted and Damian was a childish watered down him, he didn't have a childhood and a friend won't give him that, and he also wants respect and be treated as older than he is and SS created the opposite effect and an issue I find disconcerting is: why would a teen Damian like want to be friend with kid Jon? DC wanted a kind of ying yang, they had that effect with Dick, until they ruined him.

  7. #922
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I get she is supposed to be an arsehole but in the right hand they still make him likeable.

  8. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    Gulag, as you got, was used not as labour camps but as a way to show the degrading conditions and illegal detentions of the place Damian kept. I found Gulag pictured the idea right.
    Well, while you might "found" it that way, real life fact say that Gulag does not picture the right idea. It is inhuman in another way that Damian prison actually is, guilty of hosting not just criminals but people with alternative political views from Soviet machine. I would suggest use Guantanamo, as it gives better example - a prison for terrorists and murderers that exists in shady area of human rights.

    I am so picky about this, because someone can take this arguement and escalate it even much, much futher in their analogy to make a point - claim that Damian prisons are as inhuman as concentration camps, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    'Face consequences' in universe is a lot like you say, in fact, in DC if you are a hero and you act illegal or immorally you may face scorn or be considered less trustworthy for a little while but in the end the next crisis or big bad you are forgiven and your actions are ignored, and if you're a villain with a name well you get paid hollidays to prison, Arkham or if you're unlucky, you are sent to Suicide Squad but in the end you'll be free

    Alright, let Damian face the consequences and let DC superheroes be scornful on him. But please address question of Superman's Phantom Zone and Batprisons as well. You seem to avoid it, but you can't judge one and not the other. It's not "hypocricy fallacy", it's what all systems of judgement are based on around the world - justice should be blind and strike all people equally for the same crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    I agreed Damian is better than his first appearances and his default 'killed the scum', but it's the standard of a guy who has been Robin like ten years so low and it can be summed up as 'he doesn't kill anymore', seriously is that the standard? Being a hero is going beyond 'thou shalt not kill', it's a step and an important step but it isn't enough, he already had his redemption arc, he has been a while in universe with Batman, etc. His motives aren't bad, he wants to solve the revolving prison door trouble but his actions are terrible because he ended up acting as wicked, selfish and egocentric as the criminals he caught, his behavior was almost exactly villain-like. I'm harsh because the issue is fundamental for the character and with that 5G in the future, the sidekicks and the others heroes' fate is unclear, and I'd like something worth reading for them.
    Em, what? Ten years? He was Robin like two-three years in DC universe. And shown remarkable progress on that matter, some would even call it unrealistic. Just google cases of Anton Makarenko and how he was raising children left from the war, street kids and kids who were criminals at their age.
    Redemntion arc is not a plot device that magically changed all his character, it was him realising his horrible wrong doings and trying to solve them. He no longer thinks what he did is right. But to not conduct radical methods to "do good", one must be connected to society and it's rules. Dick was doing that to Damian, he was dragging him into that society and did a great job. And everyone besides Dick pushing him away or neglecting him does not help to intergrate Damian in the society properly, thus antisocial methods.
    Where did you see "wicked" and "villan-like"? I will repeat again, Batman and even Superman show this behaviour, but authors rarely point it out. One of examples when authors point out was Batman Tower of Babel.
    The issue is "fundamental" for a character you are not fond of, which is alright, but to eradicate this issue you will need to "brainwash" character itself, because people don't change so quickly (2-3 years, as I pointed out). Here you think kinda like Damian, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    Current Batman is an ass but this kind of Batman has been here for a while and honestly I don't think he'll get better in the near future.

    The bad publicity is more a hypothetical case, if Damian's prison and brainwashing were made public, who would take the burden aren't the teen titans, neither Robin but the Justice League, they would be the focus of the possible critic and I imagine a villain with with publicity telling people how uncontrollable and powerful heroes are, they need to be restrained in the case of a new Robin's prison, the heroes need to have watchers... The heroes can have their secret prisons but they aren't proudly announcing them to the public.
    Then there is no reason for Damian to get better either in such a short time. Without parental guidance or strong example, even genius kids rarely change themselves. As we discussed, Damian actually acts accordingly to set example.

    And Damian does not proudly announce his prison to public either. Plus, I think heroes don't really care about PR that much, otherwise they would already hire some PR managers to solve existing disdain for all those Dark Metals, Infinite amount of Crisis and heroes running around shooting mayors (Red Hood) or blowing up buildings in city (Teen Titans Tower and Future Timmy) .
    Last edited by RLV_1996; 02-21-2020 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    That's what makes Damian interesting, he's a jerk who is trying to become a good person or at least a less bad one. There are jerk characters and you like them because they are authentic in their jerkish way and they are horrible and once in a blue moon they faced consequences and it's right, but after that they are still jerks.

    Supersons is a great disservice for Damian, the most forced 'friendship' ever literally their fathers pushed that friendship, Jon was this generic cute and dull kid who always ended up doing what Damian wanted and Damian was a childish watered down him, he didn't have a childhood and a friend won't give him that, and he also wants respect and be treated as older than he is and SS created the opposite effect and an issue I find disconcerting is: why would a teen Damian like want to be friend with kid Jon? DC wanted a kind of ying yang, they had that effect with Dick, until they ruined him.
    He is not a "jerk", 13 years old kids from death cults of murderes can't really be jerks. He is a very damaged child, who will probably never have normal life. This does not excuse his previous killings or current antisocial behavior, but calling him "jerk" does not really explain his motivations in behaving like one.

    Supersons had their drawbacks, sure, but it did one important thing - made Damian interact with someone from relatively normal society, with normal trait and interests, and not ex-assassins, crime fighters and genius detectives.
    Teen Damian wanting to hang out with Jon actually shows that Damian wants this social ties, wants to have friends and someone to share "fun" with - he is a kid afer all. But his training pushes it all down, almost on unconditional reflex. And many kids will tell you they are "adult" and needed to be treated like adults. That of course is not true. I mean, kid got upset over his dad ignoring his birthday - that kinda tell you things. Dick got that, and if you read their interactions, he takes Damian seriously and treats with respect, but he still mostly treats him as a kid (when Damian is not attacking out of his screwed charecter and suppressed emotions and Dick forced to self-defend from ex-assassin, but that happens rarely )
    Last edited by RLV_1996; 02-21-2020 at 09:48 PM.

  10. #925
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    In Guantanamo many people there hadn't received a sentence ergo they aren't proper criminals yet and visually the inhuman treatment in the Gulag I have it more present but if you prefer another example of a prison with inhuman conditions you can take it.

    The scorn and contempt wasn't directed at Damian, I was thinking about Bruce's actions and how the Justice League treats him from time to time. But well you said I was using real life standars for consequences and how that shouldn't apply in universe; however, your comment about criminal or street children in real life and their development, well that critic applies to you, Damian was raised in an abnormal environment in a comic, and as you pointed out real life standars don't count in universe or do they now? Because if you called some hypocrite you shouldn't be another one, should you?

    Superman is a paragon in universe and as it was mentioned heroes don't face consequences, Batman doesn’t face them or he does it's only for a little while, wiith less reason does Superman for his illegal actions, his private prison is illegal without a second thought and should be explored but that's an issue more a Superman tread.

    PR issue was hypothetical as I mentioned, and PR managers would be useful for the disdain and the public disasters which aren't ignored in universe but where would the drama, angst and shock go? I'm under the impression DC considers shock value as profitable.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-21-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  11. #926
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    Sorry, I could not understand your first sentence about Guantanamo. It's not attack on you, I really couldn't. ;(
    My point is, the motivation of holding prisoners in Guantanamo and the conditions of their existance there are more simular to Damian's prison - it hosts dangerous criminals, is not according to human rights, with lack of proper control and supervision, but not as harsh as Gulag and without politically motivated cases.

    Em, I think DC worlds still has humans as their majority citizens, which means psychology of normal, not meta-human at least, should be simular to ours. And with cases of kids criminals having simular internal psychological issues (Jason Todd wasn't normal case of a kid, from what I remember).
    But what we are talking about is external perception of the situation, for example if you have hurricanes every month - your reaction to them would be different if you had them suddenty once in 100 years. Or, regular bombing of the areas are preceived as dangerous but inevitable and almost mundane in countries with civil wars, as people learn to deal with that danger. Same case with superheroes breaking the law and shady government schemes - you kinda adapt your responses to it with time.
    But look at cases of child soldiers in those countries in war with regular bombings and compare it with criminal kids in developed countires - they have some simular issues in their mentality and behavior, I would argue. Those kids still shock adults who deal with them - that's the whole point of using kids in war and crime, which is indeed horrible. That becasue external perception of the situation has an impact, sure, but only partial, as internal development of psyche is still a thing and humans have universal set of values in their life, survival, protection of young kin and need for personal safety is among them, some would argue. From what I saw in comics, family values as well are the same in DC as in our world (Kents, Lanes, Waynes before Bruce), so Damian's upbringing is still abnormal in DC environment as well.

    In this case, you can compare Earths numerous crisis as it being in war of a sort. That means some actions are deemed as mundane and inevitable, like heroes doing their thing and supervillans theirs, but family as internal mechanism is still intact, which means cases of child killers would be expected, true, but would still shock and cause expected set of emotions from both kid and adults around. Deaths of civillians duing hero-villan fight causes simular mixture of human emotions of loss and grief with sort of acceptance of inevitable (as seen in Teen Titans with Roundhouse).

    I'm not sure where is hypocricy in what I'm said, I've pointed out that Damian's actions are wrong and needed to be adressed, as they are not in line with human values in DC universe as well, as with ours. But you argued for either legal solution or public scrutiny by those who conduct those actions as well. I just asked how it would go in DC world in that case. I say, mentor of sueprhero should have right to regulate his sidekick's activity, for the benefit of sidekick and public around, but not dubious collective of DC heroes or government with people like Lex as president.

    So, you started this arguement with Damian facing consequences and "hypocricy fallacy", yet you say established heroes would never face consequences for the same things becasue they are established. Why is that? This is fundamentlly opposes principle "justice is blind". As I said before, you can't judge one and not judge the other, that's just wrong.

    I agree, DC publishers do seem to consider shock value as profitable
    Last edited by RLV_1996; 02-22-2020 at 12:53 AM.

  12. #927
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    [QUOTE=dietrich;4846918]
    Quote Originally Posted by RLV_1996 View Post

    The cool ones have but some haven't. It's made worse by DC's handling of Tim. Every time they make the wrong choice with Tim or make the right choice with Damian the hate intensifies.

    which is understandable but then you get the ones who lost their shit when Tim and Dick called Damian cute in HIC or that Damian is drawn small and babyfaced while Tim is drawn like a 16 yr old.

    I mean WTF.

    Some fans live in a perpetual state of salt. DC doesn't help by forcing Robin fans to be in competition. The way some Tim fans see it if not for Damian then Tim would be the Robin. Tim would be in the movies and stuff like the Harley show etc

    In reality if it wasn't Damian it wouldn't be tim. It'd be Duke. DC approved Duke over Tim and Damian in the new 52. Damian isn't Tim's problem sadly DC is DC and WB don't want him as Robin so much so they even erased him as Robin but some fans don't want to accept that.

    When some fans voice certain opinions you can tell they are skewed by bias to a point where there's no hope so i don't even bother responding or I respond but keep it brief.

    I think you are right.

    I am all for that all robins got fair treatment, they all have unique traits that should make it easy to distinguish them without unnessesary overshadowing.

    But establishement of one character at the expense of others seems to be the way now in all comics in general. For most part, edittors or writers seems to unwilling to constribute time and effort for smooth transition of passing the mantle to next person, so new drama is created as reason, or character is simply written off.

  13. #928
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Who is good at wrong Damian? I mean Dc has people pushing being a asshole too far at times. We need him to still be likable. I know someone said Damian is a feared of Grayson settling down maybe that can be explored if Dc ever allowed that. I know this can’t be cannon since the writers will just not use it but can be explored in other things like alt worlds or elsewhere

  14. #929
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    The producers of the Harley Animated Series did an AMA on Redditt and Damian's name popped up a couple of times

    Question from reditt user:

    Hi guys, thank you so much for doing this! I adore the show, and have three questions!

    Can you tell us anything about Season 2? A premiere date, something?

    Is there any chance that you’ll explore Harley and Ivy as... something more in the future? (Romance, I am talking about romance!)

    Who is your favorite member of the Bat family?

    Show producer Pat's answer:

    Hi! Thanks for watching! 1) So, season 2 is going to pretty much pick right up where season one ends. It's going to explore more of Gotham's criminals, and their evolving relationship with Harley as she amasses power, which doesn't sit too well with them. We'll see Catwoman, Mr. Freeze, more Riddler, more Two-Face and more Bane! 2) Yes, 100% but I don't want to say more than that right now. By the end of season 2, you will have seen things you have not seen before between them (within the show; I can't speak to the ENTIRE Harley/Ivy comics oeuvre) 3) I want to say Damian but I'm going to go with Alfred, who shows up in the series season 2

    Reddit users question

    can nothing but truly praise your work here, the way your plots evolve over 20 minutes are Rick and Morty level at times, really looking forward to what you got in season 2 and hopefully some more to come.

    E: sorry forgot to ask a question: I'm all over your take on Bane and Damian Wayne, Bane always shines, but are there plans for Harley's teen nemesis too?

    Show Producer Pat's answer

    Thanks for all these nice comments. It truly means a lot. My biggest regret is that Damian isn't in the show more. Jacob Tremblay was hilarious voicing him. If we get a season 3 and Jacob Tremblay hasn't been crushed under the weight of his acting awards, I'd love to bring in more Damian. - Pat

    P.S. if you haven't seen DOCTOR SLEEP, Tremblay is incredible in it.



    https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ker_executive/


    They've got Babs and Alfred in season 2 and the Bat's character they most want to have on the show is Huntress

  15. #930
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Babs being Batgirl, which makes sense since Damian's presence makes it clear they're using modern continuity as their inspiration.
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