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  1. #2506
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebeca Armus View Post
    I disliked Sasuke in all Naruto and didn't like Sesshomaru, now, Zuko, is the example of bad deep complicated personality good heart bad boy easily to fall in love.

    I don't know about put all them in just one group, because there is an "egoistic factor" that separete this. Damian, Zuko, maybe Vegeta, have this proud, auto sacrifice, brave heart and a insecurete, they are more needy too. Sasuke and Sessho are more egoistic, strong, help other but not in the same level?
    Damian is like "I want to say something nice, but I don't know how because feelings are complicate for someone like me" and Sasuke is like "Meh, just don't wanna to say nothing nice for nobody, whatever".
    or
    Jason - bad deep complicated deep injured personality explosive good heart bad boy.
    Genos - Naive serious complicated good good heart cold boy.

    I thought this now because "bad boy" or "serious boy" or "cold boy" are actually not very good classifications? I don't know, it's just because I really disliked Sasuke and Damian is my favorite current character now.

    But my original point was >< Damian is a character with appeals, and would be welcomed in any media. I am sad thinking about DC take him out.
    Sorry for putting Damian as the same category as Sasuke. I also hate that guy with passion, but I want to make character reference knowable enough for non-anime fans, because I'm such a weeb. Hmm.. perhaps Damian is more similar with Bakugo? They're both arrogant people with verbal abusive tendencies, but competent and responsible (CMIIW I don't know much about Bakugo, I'm more Shinsou fans. Yes I love to torture myself by stanning minor character). Or you can compare him to Iron Man, but remove the happy-go attitude. One thing that makes me interesting is creator of Iron Man (Stan Lee) and creator of Damian (Grant Morrison) were purposely makes their characters unlikable by reader.

    Stan Lee's word:
    "The readers, the young readers, if there was one thing they hated, it was war, it was the military ... So I got a hero who represented that to the hundredth degree. He was a weapons manufacturer, he was providing weapons for the Army, he was rich, he was an industrialist ... I thought it would be fun to take the kind of character that nobody would like, none of our readers would like, and shove him down their throats and make them like him ... And he became very popular."

    Grant Morrison's word :
    "Dick Grayson makes a great Batman because he’s been developed over the years as this consummate superhero. He was Batman’s original partner, so he’s been trained by the best. So we kind of knew what he would be like, but to throw Damian into the mix and suddenly have Batman’s evil 10-year-old son as the new Robin really created the dynamic that makes the bit work."
    "Batman is dead. Robin is now Batman and Batman's evil son is now Robin."
    "There are certain things that seem to make sense at the time like making Damian a little bastard and killing him off…"
    "I was quite surprised it worked, because we planned to kill Damian off in the first four issues, and then he seemed too full of potential. . . ."

    Not even their creator expect them to become this popular XD XD

  2. #2507
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Tynion is clearly Tim's fan, but unlike Snyder he's not refusing to use Damian, for example, he used him in TMNT crossover.
    Something probably is going on with entire Bat-editor group, because right now Red Hood will get a new writer, Batgirl and Nightwing also will get new authors after Joker War/Death Metal, and Tomasi said, that in January he moves from Detective Comics, but didn't mention, what he's doing next. Regarding characters, they already made it clear, that group wants all Bat-characters under their wing right now. Tim and Stephanie, for example, probably also are going back to Bat-titles, in YJ it seems like that they're leaving and Stephanie already adveristed for Joker War. And we know that Damian is coming back.
    It's actually pretty interesting to see, where is it all going.
    For me, Tynion is one of few writer who loves to write Batfamily interact with each other. So I hope we will see more Batfamily when he takes over Batman

  3. #2508
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astralabius View Post
    It's frustrating, but common. The communication between the bat titles has been really bad for some time. I don't think Lobdell even cared that Glass used Jason as Damian's secret mentor in TT, I don't think it was ever mentioned in Rhato.
    The Jason as Damian's mentor plot was weird in general. Not suprised other writers don't want to deal with it.

    But as I said, it's not really unusual for characters forgetting that they should be very angry at someone. I mean, Batman is partially responsible for the looming destruction of the multiverse because his mistrust in others caused DC metal, but he didn't get kicked out of the Justice League for that.

    Bruce also imprisoned The Batman Who Laughs under the hall of justice without telling anyone and the only thing he had to do to make amends for keeping it secret and failing to keep him imprisoned was making a new data base for all heroes to use.

    It's not exactly fair. Actions have consequences when the story needs them to for the plot. In most over cases they are forgotten because the next writer wants to focus on something else and he doesn't have time to resolve the old issues first, so the characters and the story just move on.
    Inputting Jason on TT as Damian's mentor then makes him fight each other is complete random and unnecessary. Literally served no purpose on the plotline. I'd be happy to ignore it entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astralabius View Post
    Bruce also imprisoned The Batman Who Laughs under the hall of justice without telling anyone
    This is one of factor that makes me really mad if DC will put all the blame to Damian on upcoming TT annual

  4. #2509
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Sasuke, I was tired of after the Chunin Exams/when he ;eft the Leaf Village. And never understood Sakura's infatuation with him after a certain point (romance was NOT Kishimoto's strong point).

    Zuko, well, that's an antagonist done right. And can't forget his redemption arc. Avatar really had a lot of great characters (makes me all the more excited for the upcoming live action series).

    Vegeta was an egocentric a-hole up until the Cell Games. But a number of events, most notably Cell killing Trunks, really (and finally) set him on the right path. With his sacrifice in the Buu Saga, as a last ditch effort to save his family, being the the final part of his redemption.

    Damian is kind of in the Vegeta arc, in that he started out psychopathic, but became a better person and paid the ultimate price.

  5. #2510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    This is one of factor that makes me really mad if DC will put all the blame to Damian on upcoming TT annual
    So far DC has been reluctant to call out Bruce for neglecting Damian since the events of No Justice. The times characters did mention it where all set after Alfred's death and try to connect these two developements. It seems to me like DC is trying to make it look like Bruce only started his neglect because he has been too caught up in his grief, even though he was already not acting like a father while Alfred was still alive and kicking.

    The have also shied away from adressing how messed up Bruce's plan in City of Bane was. Pennyworth RIP criticized parts of it, but not that. That arc would have made for a good reason for Damian to break with Bruce.
    He was treated like a tool and had to watch a beloved family member get murdered.

  6. #2511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astralabius View Post
    So far DC has been reluctant to call out Bruce for neglecting Damian since the events of No Justice. The times characters did mention it where all set after Alfred's death and try to connect these two developements. It seems to me like DC is trying to make it look like Bruce only started his neglect because he has been too caught up in his grief, even though he was already not acting like a father while Alfred was still alive and kicking.

    The have also shied away from adressing how messed up Bruce's plan in City of Bane was. Pennyworth RIP criticized parts of it, but not that. That arc would have made for a good reason for Damian to break with Bruce.
    He was treated like a tool and had to watch a beloved family member get murdered.
    DC seems adverse to calling out Batman in general. His recent treatment of Damian is just one of the many bad things he's done recently. I've been called a hater for saying this, but Batman hasn't been consistently heroic in a long, long time. He's basically the Token Evil Teammate on Justice League and other team books, but writers keep pretending he's right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    DC seems adverse to calling out Batman in general. His recent treatment of Damian is just one of the many bad things he's done recently. I've been called a hater for saying this, but Batman hasn't been consistently heroic in a long, long time. He's basically the Token Evil Teammate on Justice League and other team books, but writers keep pretending he's right.
    You're not entirely wrong, there isn't a member of the Batfamily that Bruce hasn't hurt over the years, (save maybe Barbara), with his manipulations, his penchant for lashing out, and his general emotional ineptitude. The worst thing is that he keeps doing it.

  8. #2513
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    The thing about a character like Batman is that he has been around for so long. Well reprsented in all types of media. Every genre and every demographic has some form of Batman themed material to get into. Add to that the vast amount of writers who've written their take on the character what you get is a character with multiple personalites so to speak.

    It doesn't help that his character and world is already dark and tainted with issues it's understandable that he just got dark and dark as writers upped the ante to make their stories memorable and interesting to readers who have gradually become used to a darker, more tortured and less heroic Bat.

    DC sells batman as a hero, fans view him as a hero even when he is not. It's one of those things that become a thing where no one points out the fallacy.

    Same with Batdad. Bruce has a family because it's a great concept and they are popular but DC has no intention of having him actually do Dad things so they won't call him out for neglect or anything like that because his kids are Robins.

    Their role is to help fight crime when needed, Spin off to sell books and drive his plot when needed.
    They were created for batman not Bruce Wayne. No matter how badly he treats them he can't be shown to be completely in the wrong or the bad guy. Batman is supposed to be a hero. DC's most valued hero at that so it's important that we still root for him/view him with some positive. Even when he's shitty the story and characters can't just call him shitty and leave it at that. They can call him shitty but reflect on how his shittiness isn't entirely his fault, forgive him or reveal why his shittiness was actual the best thing that saved the day. Whatever the point is the reader should be left with enough to still like Batman or at the very least understand/justify/normalise his actions so readers don't end up hating him.

    The original Huntress Helena was the only Batkid that was created for Bruce Wayne's character not Batman. She was Bruce's kid who wasn't created primarily for sidekick purposes.

    She later became a crime fighter but that was after we saw Bruce raise her and just be a dad.

    In the main DC verse DC has no interest in Batman being a dad not to mention that they needed Bruce to not have eyes on Damian so the TT plot can happen.

    It's double standards and it sucks for fans of the batfamily every time they are used and abused for plot and get no resolution or even a single line of follow up dialogue addressing their treatment/injuries.

    It sucks but DC is a business and Batman is a juggernut so while I don't like it I get it.

    I've learnt to lower my expectations.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-01-2020 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #2514
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astralabius View Post
    So far DC has been reluctant to call out Bruce for neglecting Damian since the events of No Justice. The times characters did mention it where all set after Alfred's death and try to connect these two developements. It seems to me like DC is trying to make it look like Bruce only started his neglect because he has been too caught up in his grief, even though he was already not acting like a father while Alfred was still alive and kicking.

    The have also shied away from adressing how messed up Bruce's plan in City of Bane was. Pennyworth RIP criticized parts of it, but not that. That arc would have made for a good reason for Damian to break with Bruce.
    He was treated like a tool and had to watch a beloved family member get murdered.

    I understand the anger, disappointment and upset this forced heel turn dregs up.

    The clumsy and not at all subtle giving a dog all the bad name's they can to justify why is must be hanged. One bad decision#rule breaking should be enough but they went with multiple just to ensure that it's idiot proof.

    however I'm glad it wasn't due to City of Bane.
    Not fair on king and Damian. It has to be down as a fallout for Damian's actions in his title not as a fallout from a Batman story.

    That would make king a target for angry fans and it's disrespectful to Damian. Bad as Glass it it's Damian's story and his decisions. I don't want him getting grounded because he was following orders.

    I don't want the Poor Robin get grounded due to no fault of his own. Aww isn't it the worst. The Robin who is only trying his best to help then being unfairly treated because he was good and a Wayne was shit!

    Hell No.

    That is Tim Drake's bag and not Damian's.
    The pity me thing isn't a good look and it's bad for fandom. It creates resentment, degrades the character by making them a powerless victim without a voice or choice. I don't want damian to become the damsel done wrong.

    He behaved badly and this is the consequence. He takes it like a big boy and returns when he's ready. That's more interesting and ensures no pity party. That shit sticks and it's damaging. Woobifying the character.

    Besides aside from the fact that King still works alongside these bat writers so it would be rude if they keep taking shots at his run. They already called him on his vacation [which I felt was uncalled for] and Alfred. The TT plot and the bad behaviour on that title started way before City of Bane so that would still remain.

    all Robin's get fired at least damian will return. dc isn't about to change him as the official robin especially with AT&T going for the whole brand synergy.

    Damian even if he wasn't so well established with a high profile in outside media he is also the most attractive candidate for the role from a business pov.

    His lore and skill is less problematic
    he is also the most versatile. You can do the generic Batman and Robin duo with him and bruce that's always been done. You can also do stories that can't be done with others.

    at this point I don't even care if he gets all the blame. damian has done bad things before and he has gotten blamed for stuff and he moved past it. I'm just need this whole arc done so i can start looking forward to damian stories again.

    I picked up the last 2 issues of TT but haven't opened either once. I just don't feel like reading the title. I know it's just gonna pissed me off so why bother.

  10. #2515
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    I understand the anger, disappointment and upset this forced heel turn dregs up.

    The clumsy and not at all subtle giving a dog all the bad name's they can to justify why is must be hanged. One bad decision#rule breaking should be enough but they went with multiple just to ensure that it's idiot proof.

    however I'm glad it wasn't due to City of Bane.
    Not fair on king and Damian. It has to be down as a fallout for Damian's actions in his title not as a fallout from a Batman story.

    That would make king a target for angry fans and it's disrespectful to Damian. Bad as Glass it it's Damian's story and his decisions. I don't want him getting grounded because he was following orders.

    I don't want the Poor Robin get grounded due to no fault of his own. Aww isn't it the worst. The Robin who is only trying his best to help then being unfairly treated because he was good and a Wayne was shit!

    Hell No.

    That is Tim Drake's bag and not Damian's.
    The pity me thing isn't a good look and it's bad for fandom. It creates resentment, degrades the character by making them a powerless victim without a voice or choice. I don't want damian to become the damsel done wrong.

    He behaved badly and this is the consequence. He takes it like a big boy and returns when he's ready. That's more interesting and ensures no pity party. That shit sticks and it's damaging. Woobifying the character.

    Besides aside from the fact that King still works alongside these bat writers so it would be rude if they keep taking shots at his run. They already called him on his vacation [which I felt was uncalled for] and Alfred. The TT plot and the bad behaviour on that title started way before City of Bane so that would still remain.

    all Robin's get fired at least damian will return. dc isn't about to change him as the official robin especially with AT&T going for the whole brand synergy.

    Damian even if he wasn't so well established with a high profile in outside media he is also the most attractive candidate for the role from a business pov.

    His lore and skill is less problematic
    he is also the most versatile. You can do the generic Batman and Robin duo with him and bruce that's always been done. You can also do stories that can't be done with others.

    at this point I don't even care if he gets all the blame. damian has done bad things before and he has gotten blamed for stuff and he moved past it. I'm just need this whole arc done so i can start looking forward to damian stories again.

    I picked up the last 2 issues of TT but haven't opened either once. I just don't feel like reading the title. I know it's just gonna pissed me off so why bother.
    Not sure how you got to this post from my post in all places, but whatever. I was talking about events that could have lead to a better story of Damian breaking with Bruce, I wasn't talking about using City of Bane to explain Damian's actions retroactively. Even though DC actually seems to do this exact thing with justifying Bruce's neglect in typical DC fashion.

    I'm already mad at King and City of Bane, the arc and Bruce's plan were terrible, and the decision to make Damian go bad would still have been on DC and the execution on Glass or whatever writer would have had to deal with it. This is about giving Damian's behaviour an inciting incident that makes sense to get mad at Bruce. Bruce utterly failed the city and his family in King's run, and that is without making it the inciting incident for Damian's turn. So using it as the reason wouldn't have changed much about how readers would have perceived King's run anyway. The anger about City of Bane is already there. The anger at Bruce is already there. And the anger about DC not adressing these issues is there too.

    I don't know how to feel about Damian getting punished for this. He's 13, has mental problems and his father left him utterly alone with all of it. But the way the US treats children who committed crimes is sick anyway, so I guess there is a difference between cultures as well.
    Damian needs serious help, not punishment. And taking Damian's perspective is what Damian's main book should do. I get enough books that try to justify Bruce's perspective, I don't need Damian's book to do the same. That doesn't mean it can't criticize Damian's actions, but it should at least make Damian's actions and feelings seem reasonable and this book has failed to do so. Damian's critique of Batman feels shallow and is constantly proven wrong. Sorry, but if DC isn't willing to tell a Batman vs Robin story well by giving both sides good reasons then it shouldn't exist at all.
    The way this entire story is build I feel zero sympathy for Damian. I don't understand why he did things he has done and that is largely because the inciting incident of this story doesn't work.

    I don't think either of us will change their minds on this, but I really see no reason for why I shouldn't be allowed to think that Bruce, the person who was supposed to raise Damian and watch over him every day because Damian is a minor with serious problems, should be blamed for this. If there is one character in the DC universe who doesn't deserve sympathy for getting criticized by fans it's Batman. Even if he gets put down, he will still remain DC's cashcow.
    Damian is already hated by enough fans. Giving him a story of him going bad with probably the worst written motivation I have seen in years does not help. People just started getting around to him, with this run he seems to go back to square one and I can't even explain why.

  11. #2516
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    Thompson is likely to make both Bruce and Damian admit that they themselves are to blame for their actions. And Alfred’s death here will be a key factor, they both admit that without him they don’t know what to do and how to do the right thing, because he was a moral compass for both.
    In any case, I do not think that this will be something one-sided. A parallel has already been drawn between them, they feel the same now.

  12. #2517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Thompson is likely to make both Bruce and Damian admit that they themselves are to blame for their actions. And Alfred’s death here will be a key factor, they both admit that without him they don’t know what to do and how to do the right thing, because he was a moral compass for both.
    In any case, I do not think that this will be something one-sided. A parallel has already been drawn between them, they feel the same now.
    Don't know how I should feel about using Alfred for this to be honest. Alfred has never been as much guidance for Damian as he has been for Bruce and the one time Alfred previously showed up in this storyline he did the opposite of being helpful.
    Thompson tries very hard to make Bruce and Damian the same even though they aren't. They are similar, not the same. But that's a different issue.

    And even then the problem remains that Glass is listed as the main writer for the annual. My only hope is that the changes that must have been done after DC adjusted their plans were done by Thompson instead of Glass and DC simpy didn't bother to update the solicitation for the annual like they did with Teen Titans #42.
    Maybe Thompson will do a better job with Damian, after reading 42 I would actually be disappointed if Damian was revealed as the killer, why give us the answer on the cover and then still pretend it's a mystey? But if the majority of the annual is still written by Glass none of this is likely to matter anyway.
    Thompson didn't mind immediately changing things about the story the minute he was alone on the title and I wouldn't be suprised if Glass would do the same with the annual. So Thompson's efforts to make the conflict seem a bit more fair could be for nothing.
    Last edited by Astralabius; 07-02-2020 at 05:00 AM.

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    Annual probably has been rewritten. There's too many changes with schedule. I'm not sure, of course, but it seems like.
    Glass, by the way, said that he wasn't going to completely destroy Damian character, by the fact, he called him "future Batman", so, I think, it won't be as hard, as many think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Annual probably has been rewritten. There's too many changes with schedule. I'm not sure, of course, but it seems like.
    Glass, by the way, said that he wasn't going to completely destroy Damian character, by the fact, he called him "future Batman", so, I think, it won't be as hard, as many think.
    He said Damian "needed to be pushed to his destruction to be reborn", a statement I disagree with. There was no need to destroy him. I don't get DC's obsession with destroying their heroes anyway. How many consecutive Batman runs have tried to "break Batman" now? That's part of the reason Bruce isn't a hero anymore in my eyes. Too much deconstruction, not enough reconstruction.

    I don't see the point of talking about who would be the best Batman in the future. DC will always return to Bruce in the main universe. That discussion is kinda pointless and so is letting Damian's direction be guided by that question. Unless Damian gets aged up we won't see him as an adult in the main universe and those things usually don't go over well with fans. I wish people would stop thinking about Damian's future and start thinking about him in the present.

    Also, the reason I worry about the annual is really more the lack of nuance in Glass' writing when it comes to Damian at this point. What exactly happens with Damian afterwards is in the hands of the bat office from what I read.
    Last edited by Astralabius; 07-02-2020 at 06:05 AM.

  15. #2520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Annual probably has been rewritten. There's too many changes with schedule. I'm not sure, of course, but it seems like.
    Glass, by the way, said that he wasn't going to completely destroy Damian character, by the fact, he called him "future Batman", so, I think, it won't be as hard, as many think.
    "Future Batman" is not a good thing, especially if writers don't learn from the flaws of current Batman.

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