Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Rebeca Armus]

A general post for what I read since page 180:

The main and original batman mythos includes Bruce being a father as a main part of his character. He wasn't "The Batman" but rather "Batman" in the dynamic duo. So the son was pretty important. Also, Bruce ADOPTED his first son... Meaning that it was something HE wanted and decided from the one side... And from the other, this made clear that Batman's first writers wanted him a father.
The reason why this changed over the years is because DC believed that fans were bored of this family side of him and thus, as many said as well, made him darker. The problem is that the time they decided that, batfamily already had many members... So Bruce's permanent dark side is ill-timed and DC's fault.

As far as Damian is concerned.... DC should have either killed him off when he was first introduced OR keep him and work his character and his relationships in the right way.
So, seeing how his relationship with Bruce has gone, from their meeting to his death and up until today, is frustrating. It is not the fans not understanding the mythos and the main character, it is DC messing it up over and over again in a way that simply doesn't make sense to create drama.
To put an example... Is it logical to have a child back from death, your only biological child at that, which -you know- that has suffered in the hands of his prior family and neglect it at 13? No.
Is it logical for any parent to neglect their child in general? No.
It is all choices and consequences...
DC decided that Damian was to be in this word. So they had to make him work. All this is just a half-completed job. And this is for any of the batkids. If they don't want Batman a father, because it doesn't suit his character and his nature is not that, then they should wipe out all of his children from the DCU.

Also... I believe Damian's main main main problem is that he is Bruce's biological son. The natural continuation. And a character with a huge potential. If he was developed appropriately, as many of you said, he would surpass DC's main character.

And OUR main problem is that Batman is a story that has been around for 80 years and more to come. Stories start to end at some point and when they don't, they become problematic. Writers experiment, shock, repeat, destroy and create things all the time to draw attention to a 80yo character. It is natural to feel frustrated when you read it for decades... Even I feel frustrated and I am not in the comic world for more than 2 years...Anyways.

Also, miss @Rebecca Armus I ADORE your Damian Wayne art! It's the cutest Damian so far and you often hit at the center with your themes!! (The leaf and Talia etc).

Also, I am back. Hi!

Bruce take childs from street for leave them alone, and, yeah, if Damian was put in the comic they need to deal with it in a satisfaction way.
Second:
Hihihihihi stoooopppppp.
Thanks, I love draw Damian, just help me to deal with things, and looks like help other persons too. This is all I want <3 from my heart for your heart

Welcome back

*oh, here my names have just one "c", since in foreign this is almost always "Rebecca" everybody in internet write my name wrong, but no problemo.

[Konja7]

In this thread, I've seen it mentioned that if DC didn't want to use Damian and develop his relationship with Bruce properly, DC should have killed him.

I guess that's the reason why DC doesn't originally plan to bring Damian back to life (although he is a pretty popular character), they don't want Bruce to have a biological son. It was WB who wants Damian alive due to the DCAU.

Now, I'm worried that the DCAU where Damian was so prominent has been retconned.

[Fergus]

A general post for what I read since page 180:

The main and original batman mythos includes Bruce being a father as a main part of his character. He wasn't "The Batman" but rather "Batman" in the dynamic duo. So the son was pretty important. Also, Bruce ADOPTED his first son... Meaning that it was something HE wanted and decided from the one side... And from the other, this made clear that Batman's first writers wanted him a father.
The reason why this changed over the years is because DC believed that fans were bored of this family side of him and thus, as many said as well, made him darker. The problem is that the time they decided that, batfamily already had many members... So Bruce's permanent dark side is ill-timed and DC's fault.

As far as Damian is concerned.... DC should have either killed him off when he was first introduced OR keep him and work his character and his relationships in the right way.
So, seeing how his relationship with Bruce has gone, from their meeting to his death and up until today, is frustrating. It is not the fans not understanding the mythos and the main character, it is DC messing it up over and over again in a way that simply doesn't make sense to create drama.
To put an example... Is it logical to have a child back from death, your only biological child at that, which -you know- that has suffered in the hands of his prior family and neglect it at 13? No.
Is it logical for any parent to neglect their child in general? No.
It is all choices and consequences...
DC decided that Damian was to be in this word. So they had to make him work. All this is just a half-completed job. And this is for any of the batkids. If they don't want Batman a father, because it doesn't suit his character and his nature is not that, then they should wipe out all of his children from the DCU.

Also... I believe Damian's main main main problem is that he is Bruce's biological son. The natural continuation. And a character with a huge potential. If he was developed appropriately, as many of you said, he would surpass DC's main character.

And OUR main problem is that Batman is a story that has been around for 80 years and more to come. Stories start to end at some point and when they don't, they become problematic. Writers experiment, shock, repeat, destroy and create things all the time to draw attention to a 80yo character. It is natural to feel frustrated when you read it for decades... Even I feel frustrated and I am not in the comic world for more than 2 years...Anyways.

Also, miss @Rebecca Armus I ADORE your Damian Wayne art! It's the cutest Damian so far and you often hit at the center with your themes!! (The leaf and Talia etc).

Also, I am back. Hi!

Batman was always The Batman.
Robin's introduction had nothing to do the writers. It was a business decision. Made by the powers and the reason wasn't because they wanted Batman to be a father they just needed a way to get kids reading Batman which at the time wasn't the highly popular title he is today.

It was marketing and Business not something that was an organic part of the character concept.

Robin's introduction worked. Increasing sales by 40% but even then their relationship wasn't father and son.

Jason was the first to be adopted and that was only introduced after his death. This was more than 40 years after Batman's creation and just before DC went ahead with the big move of separating the Dynamic Duo with the introduction of the Robin solo. From then on Robin stopped being a regular on the Batman titles.

Batman was not created or designed to be a father. DC has had no interest in pushing him as such in a serious way and their plans for the Dynamic Duo isn't together which is why Tim was introduced.

The family and Robin are spin-offs to make more money for DC. They are extensions of the bat brand. Introduced to expand the reach of the Batman

[Fergus]

In this thread, I've seen it mentioned that if DC didn't want to use Damian and develop his relationship with Bruce properly, DC should have killed him.

I guess that's the reason why DC doesn't originally plan to bring Damian back to life (although he is a pretty popular character), they don't want Bruce to have a biological son. It was WB who wants Damian alive due to the DCAU.

Now, I'm worried that the DCAU where Damian was so prominent has been retconned.

Damian is also prominent in the games, the non shared Universe movies, TV shows. The writers for the Harley Quinn show just had an AMA on Reddit [5 days ago] and talked about their plans for season 3 which includes a more Damian despite his Voice's busy schedule.

Damian and Babs are the two Bat kids that have been scripted into season 3.

DC never wanted Bruce to have a biological kid and Morrison didn't plan for Damian to stick around. We know this and Morrison himself in an interview chuckled at the fact the little bugger stuck around causing problems for DC [his own words]

DC however doesn't make the rules doubly so now that AT&T is in charge and changes are being made to increase synergy across mediums.

DC might not have planned for Damian to be a permanent feature but they are stuck with him

[Morgoth]

I guess that's the reason why DC doesn't originally plan to bring Damian back to life (although he is a pretty popular character), they don't want Bruce to have a biological son. It was WB who wants Damian alive due to the DCAU.

Regarding their plans, Damian not immediately became popular. He was and probably still remains one of the most hated Batfamily members, at least at that point, for various reasons, starting with his behavior and ending with the fact that he essentially kicked Tim out of the lead roles, and given how many years he was Robin and how fans loved him, I think you understand how much they hated him then. They wanted to kill him not only because they think that Bruce shouldn't have a child, he was just hated character, so they didn't see any reason to keep him alive and Morrison just had that in mind for years. But during his run, and then Tomasi's, he's got lots of fans, B&R was an absolute success, so eventually they brought him back. And for WB, Damian is easier to sell. As I understand it, they basically have a certain problem with the Robin concept, especially Tim's part. And Damian is a character who can be sold in the media very easily, especially since DCAMU has raised his popularity. That's why they also insisted on keeping him alive. And that's why nobody will turn him into villain, as many suspect. And also that's the reason, why DCeased and Injustice (incredibly popular series right now) have him as one of the main characters.
They will have him in a retconned universe, obviously.

[Fergus]

Damian proved popular after his 1st appearance. Morrison planed to just use him in the one story. DC requested Morrison hold off on his plans for killing him off.

By the time he died he was too popular really to remain gone.
The vocal fans aren't always the majority. Damian has a lot of vocal hate but he is far more popular than even we realise.

An example would you believe it if I told that the most popular ship in the DCSAMU was Damian and Raven's ? or that Damian was one of most requested or inquired after characters from that universe?

I didn't but according to James Tucker and other creatives this is the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rV4OBBdM58

[Fergus]

Regarding their plans, Damian not immediately became popular. He was and probably still remains one of the most hated Batfamily members, at least at that point, for various reasons, starting with his behavior and ending with the fact that he essentially kicked Tim out of the lead roles, and given how many years he was Robin and how fans loved him, I think you understand how much they hated him then. They wanted to kill him not only because they think that Bruce shouldn't have a child, he was just hated character, so they didn't see any reason to keep him alive and Morrison just had that in mind for years. But during his run, and then Tomasi's, he's got lots of fans, B&R was an absolute success, so eventually they brought him back. And for WB, Damian is easier to sell. As I understand it, they basically have a certain problem with the Robin concept, especially Tim's part. And Damian is a character who can be sold in the media very easily, especially since DCAMU has raised his popularity. That's why they also insisted on keeping him alive. And that's why nobody will turn him into villain, as many suspect. And also that's the reason, why DCeased and Injustice (incredibly popular series right now) have him as one of the main characters.
They will have him in a retconned universe, obviously.

Tim's Concept is problematic.

Bruce requiring a 13 year old to be his morality or to keep him from the losing isn't somethjing that makes Batman look stable or seem remotely competent. It flys in the face of the image of Batman that is sucessful, that the audience wants and that WB pushes.

Can you see Nolan's Batman being that guy? Not even Adam West's Batman or Batfleck is that guy.
That concept might be welcomed by some because it inflates the importance of Robin to Batman but it damaging to both.

It's also a lie.

This is all without getting into the being a replacement for a dead teen and the fact that this all without his folks not being in on the whole crime fighting side gig.

[Morgoth]

I guess, that's one of the reasons why Tim has been ignored in media for years, even in YJ he's not an important character.
Damian, on the other side, is that type of character, who easy to introduce as Robin. I'm sure, what if Affleck would be still hanging around, Damian would appear in his movie. And he clearly has all chances to become Keaton's Robin.

[Light of Justice]

It's storylines like this that makes me wish DC had pulled the trigger in Priest's Deathstroke v Batman and decided that Damian wasn't Bruce's son after all. It's clearly not a good relationship for either one and just makes them look bad, particularly Bruce. He is a character unlike Clark who cearly wasn't meant to be a father, it's not a slight against him just that some people are not cut out to be a parent. The man has his mission, its been the one driving and most important thing in his life, the core aspect of his character. Why did anyone think it was a good idea to saddle him with a young kid and expect he would change into some doting father? It's not his character's makeup and it would change what makes him Batman. But Damian fans don't want that, they like his connections to the bat mythos, the "Son of Batman" moniker all the while railing at Bruce for his treatment or lack thereof of Damian. Batman is the foundation and central point of the bat franchise, it's his mythos; you cannot expect his whole character to change for the sake of one character. It's not Bruce who has to change, it's Damian. This is why I say DC should have said actually no Bruce is not the father. Maybe make it Slade or some other person but Damian fans fear that would render Damian irrelevant or consigned to limbo if he is removed from the family. But as it stands he is Bruce's son so the issue going forward is how will that relationship evolve? I for one don't see Bruce becoming some doting, little league coaching dad. He still has his mission and Damian will have to fit into that dynamic as best he can. And Damian fans will have to accept that or just continue to post in frustration at Bruce's behavior, all the while knowing he will not and cannot change. To do so would not be true to his character, he is who he is. Some like me like and accept that, others Damian fans including does not.

I don't think there's people who loved Damian mainly because he's son of Batman. Damian fans want Damian stays as Bruce's son not because he will be irrelevant, but because it will change his character aspect. Damian is not like Cassandra, who has 2 murderer parents but then she realized by herself that murder is a bad thing to do. Damian embrace his fate as Al Ghul heir because it was on his blood, then he followed Batman's path because he's his father whom he idolized since he was little. He just understand about morality when he's under Dick, because unlike Talia or Bruce, Dick never force his insight to Damian, and Damian didn't have to listen Dick's opinion. But on his core, Damian is still a kid who want to be accepted by his parents, but his parents has different way to see the world, and Damian stuck in the middle on his dilemma, because he recognized pros and cons of Al-Ghul's way, but he also recognized pros and cons of Wayne's way. He want to find middle ground from both of the ways is one of his most defining aspect. After all, Morrison once stated that Damian represent kids situation in the middle of divorce, because he also has divorced parents. After Morrison wrapped up Damian's origin like that, making Damian as Deathstroke's son, or any other man's son is a bad idea.

[Light of Justice]

Damian is also prominent in the games, the non shared Universe movies, TV shows. The writers for the Harley Quinn show just had an AMA on Reddit [5 days ago] and talked about their plans for season 3 which includes a more Damian despite his Voice's busy schedule.

Damian and Babs are the two Bat kids that have been scripted into season 3.

DC never wanted Bruce to have a biological kid and Morrison didn't plan for Damian to stick around. We know this and Morrison himself in an interview chuckled at the fact the little bugger stuck around causing problems for DC [his own words]

DC however doesn't make the rules doubly so now that AT&T is in charge and changes are being made to increase synergy across mediums.

DC might not have planned for Damian to be a permanent feature but they are stuck with him

On what interview Grant Morrison said that Damian stuck around causing problems for DC?

And yeah, I agree with you, Damian is the least problematic Robin origin. I remember on Robin War there's someone who criticized Batman because he brings kids around to beat criminal and Jason defended him by saying that probably those kids want to hit people all the time and Batman helped that kid to find someone he's supposed to hit. And I just think, how the heck those argument makes Batman looks like a good guy instead of very irresponsible adult? The fact remained that he turned 3 civilian children into child soldier. But Damian is child soldier from birth. He can't be easily turned into normal kid without knowing morality and rules of society, and Robin helped him to understand that.

[Fergus]

To be fair, he started out good with Tim, but it soon went downhill.

No he didn't.

Tim intro was built on vilifying Jason. Bruce so easily and quickly replacing his son underlines how much the family is just for show.

Bruce as a bad father started even before Tim

[Fergus]

On what interview Grant Morrison said that Damian stuck around causing problems for DC?

And yeah, I agree with you, Damian is the least problematic Robin origin. I remember on Robin War there's someone who criticized Batman because he brings kids around to beat criminal and Jason defended him by saying that probably those kids want to hit people all the time and Batman helped that kid to find someone he's supposed to hit. And I just think, how the heck those argument makes Batman looks like a good guy instead of very irresponsible adult? The fact remained that he turned 3 civilian children into child soldier. But Damian is child soldier from birth. He can't be easily turned into normal kid without knowing morality and rules of society, and Robin helped him to understand that.

will up load the link as soon as I find it.

[Fergus]

Uh, Damian being Slade Wilson's son isn't better by any means.

That aside, the main issue is that once upon a time, Bruce was a good father to both Dick and Jason. Then they decided to keep making Bruce darker, and well, here we are.

They started making Bruce darker under O'neil. Before Miller and even before Jason.

[Fergus]

It's storylines like this that makes me wish DC had pulled the trigger in Priest's Deathstroke v Batman and decided that Damian wasn't Bruce's son after all. It's clearly not a good relationship for either one and just makes them look bad, particularly Bruce. He is a character unlike Clark who cearly wasn't meant to be a father, it's not a slight against him just that some people are not cut out to be a parent. The man has his mission, its been the one driving and most important thing in his life, the core aspect of his character. Why did anyone think it was a good idea to saddle him with a young kid and expect he would change into some doting father? It's not his character's makeup and it would change what makes him Batman. But Damian fans don't want that, they like his connections to the bat mythos, the "Son of Batman" moniker all the while railing at Bruce for his treatment or lack thereof of Damian. Batman is the foundation and central point of the bat franchise, it's his mythos; you cannot expect his whole character to change for the sake of one character. It's not Bruce who has to change, it's Damian. This is why I say DC should have said actually no Bruce is not the father. Maybe make it Slade or some other person but Damian fans fear that would render Damian irrelevant or consigned to limbo if he is removed from the family. But as it stands he is Bruce's son so the issue going forward is how will that relationship evolve? I for one don't see Bruce becoming some doting, little league coaching dad. He still has his mission and Damian will have to fit into that dynamic as best he can. And Damian fans will have to accept that or just continue to post in frustration at Bruce's behavior, all the while knowing he will not and cannot change. To do so would not be true to his character, he is who he is. Some like me like and accept that, others Damian fans including does not.

100% agree on most of your points
Damian is there to service Bruce's story
DC isn't about to suddenly change Bruce/Batman to fit Damian or any of the family's narratives. They are his support.
Damian fans should get that by now. All Bat family fans should get that.
Damian just like all bat side characters benefit from their connections to the Batman brand. There's a reason why red Hood has a Bat Brand on his chest even when he's supposed to be a play by his own rules type. Why Casss fans are keen for Babs to be Oracle and hate the name Orphan. Why Tim fans weren't happy when the new 52 distanced him and his parents were brought back.

Proximity to the a big brand like Batman is advantageous.

You are however incorrect / misrepresenting somethings.

Since Rebirth started 90% likely even more of the positive Batdad/ Bat as family man moments have come thanks to Damian. The rest from Jarro

The writers who have actively written Bruce as Abusive or negatively haven't been Damian writers nor do they involve Damian

Lobdell wrote Bruce beating the shit out of Jason
King wrote Bruce punching Tim and endangering Damian
King wrote Bruce's son getting shot and failed to show Bruce visiting/being tormented by the fact
Tynion wrote Bruce admitting to manipulating Tim
King wrote Bruce calling his kids his soldiers

King's incompetent Batman did far more making Bruce look bad than anything has done in years. Not to mention Pennyworth RIP which was the cherry on top.

So no Damian is low on the things that make Batman look bad.
The most one can argue is that Damian not featuring in the stories implies negligence but logical fans should understand that it's Batman's
title and story not Damian's so there's no requirement for him to be included if the story doesn't call for it.

If we can accept Batman being in a body cast in one title, trapped in an alternate universe in another and kicking ass on the streets of Gotham in another [all released in the same week] then why can't we assume that Damian chilling with Cass in his bedroom in stories set in the manor that don't feature the batfam?

[Rebeca Armus]

I got what peoples that don't like Bruce being a father say, but even if DC want to keep Bruce in his original mission, and compromised just with Gotham and being incapable of work and showing affection, Batman/ Bruce can't just became a abusive figure in his own family. He fight against people who spank childs and manipulate youngers, he can't do the same thing in his own house.
Maybe Bruce being a better father is against the character that someones have in mind, but the way he acts with his sons is?
Like, Alfred, I would like Alfred being more affective with all in Wayne manor? Yes, but I understand this is not his personality or role in the story.
He says "I became Batman so others childs will not have to live what I did", so what is the sense being a, again, not just a no good father, but a terrible father?