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  1. #4381
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmaster_J View Post
    Hey not asking you to like em. I dislike Djinn as much as you do for goodness sake. Just saying that we're dealing with characters who are new, and weren't previously established like a Damian who's been around for years. Each joined for their own personal reasons, and Damian brought them together in his own words of "not so hung up on the rules" He wanted a team full of a'holes just like him.

    And they only turned on him only after finding out what he did to Brother Blood but then you turn and call them spineless for finally deciding to no longer follow his agenda ??? You can't have it both ways. Either they're a holes for blindly following, or for turning on him. Which neither action is the equivalent of the word , it's just what you want to label them excluding Damian, and that's fine you're allowed to be bias but if you're gonna call em a'holes then you should be calling the ENTIRE team such. That's what they were.
    I call them spineless because they lied about their involvement in the things that went on.

    they went along with everything up to the killing of brother blood.

    They are ALL responsible for the actions they willingly went along with.

    Who said i was excluding Damian? Don't assume.
    They are not Arseholes for blindly following him. They are arseholes because they read like arseholes. They are not fun to read which I know is subjective but that is what comments here are

    They are spineless arseholes because they are now claiming to not have played a part on still remained on the team after finding out about the Jail.

    I would say they finally grew spines after taking a stand against Damian but since they yet to admit their part in the other misdeeds of the team they still are spineless Arseholes. Sad. They should have learnt from Damian who stood his ground

  2. #4382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    I will agree with you 3 months ago, but upcoming Gotham Knight has Tim as Robin. Titans show will have (black) Tim, probably as Robin too. Indeed WB are invested with him on DCAMU and Apokalips War is a huge success, but I don't see any push for Damian from them lately. Even Arkham Knight game get canceled. And I don't think DC is ever invested with Damian's generation. Damian maybe, but his generation? Not so much. Jon got age up and still in Legion, the rumor said that LOSH is still continued after Future State. They didn't gave Damian generation Wonder for ages, and it's still way too early to know Yara Flor and direction DC will take with her. Emiko and Wallace are shipped into Dick's Titans Academy. Jackson moved into Young Justice bunch, along with Tim's team. No Lantern.
    On the other hand, along with Tim's upcoming exposure on game and show, Future State has Tim as Robin (Eternal). Young Justice is practically revives Tim's generation, and I will be surprised if Young Justice with main 4 Tim, Kon, Cassie, Bart will not be relaunched. Tynion handles Batman books now, and everyone know that he likes Tim and tried to bring Tim back as Robin. Current situation is not good for Damian's generation and seems like encourages Tim to be back as Robin, which is maybe for the best for the character (at least the Drake thing was over)
    About Damian's generation, I think DC's hesitation when it comes to them derives from the fact that they bring continuity problems. Think about it: the only reason Damian exists is because Grant Morrison created him and they have a huge name in the industry. Dan Didio wanted to kill Dick because he thought his character brought continuity problems, but then he allows Batman's bio son to exist in main continuity? lol Is really funny actually.

    So far, on one hand, Damian's generation has been based in children from the JL, like him and Jon, but DC doesn't want to bring this level of development to all of their heroes. They surely don't want Wonder Woman to have a child, and because of that we don't have a younger Wonder Girl so far, even though Lyta Trevor existed in the past. Yara might in fact change that, but we don't know yet. I really hope yes, though! Aquaman recently had a kid, but I don't know what will happen to Andy. Will she stick post-Future State or disappear? Will she be aged a little bit? Will she still be just a baby? No idea.

    On the other hand, however, you also have characters like Wally and Red Arrow that technically are from Damian's generation, but are a little bit older and don't follow the "son of X" trope. I really don't know what to say about this characters, they seem to be less memorable, but that's not necesserally because they are bad characters, I think they just hadn't had a good push so far. (And I'll be honest, I don't really want to read Damian interacting with them for a while lol.)

    Anyway, the point is, this third generation needs something that differentiates them, because we already have 2 generations of sidekicks, so they are in the brink of becoming a copy of the others. They can grow in number of characters, but DC needs to be willing to accept some new elements in continuity.

  3. #4383
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    @LoghtofJustice, I do like manipulative Damian. I don't think Damian should ever be a goody good guy without shades of grey however the anti hero niche should be Jason's. I didn't like Damian stepping all over jason's toes in TT.

    DC has a problem. The Robin's blend into each other.
    Dick craved out a niche which they watered down Tim [at least they are really trying to]

    Jason has managed to crave out a niche they shouldn't water that down.

    The lack of sufficient inner dialogue was really irritating. Both with Damian on Tt and Batman in King's run.
    Tim Drake got watered down because some of his fans thought the only way to make him interesting was to keep him as Robin forever.

    Jason will always be the Red Hood, Damian becoming an Anti-hero can never over shadow that. It's like saying Tim aging up to Red Robin would waterdown Nightwing.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  4. #4384
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    I will agree with you 3 months ago, but upcoming Gotham Knight has Tim as Robin. Titans show will have (black) Tim, probably as Robin too. Indeed WB are invested with him on DCAMU and Apokalips War is a huge success, but I don't see any push for Damian from them lately. Even Arkham Knight game get canceled. And I don't think DC is ever invested with Damian's generation. Damian maybe, but his generation? Not so much. Jon got age up and still in Legion, the rumor said that LOSH is still continued after Future State. They didn't gave Damian generation Wonder for ages, and it's still way too early to know Yara Flor and direction DC will take with her. Emiko and Wallace are shipped into Dick's Titans Academy. Jackson moved into Young Justice bunch, along with Tim's team. No Lantern.
    On the other hand, along with Tim's upcoming exposure on game and show, Future State has Tim as Robin (Eternal). Young Justice is practically revives Tim's generation, and I will be surprised if Young Justice with main 4 Tim, Kon, Cassie, Bart will not be relaunched. Tynion handles Batman books now, and everyone know that he likes Tim and tried to bring Tim back as Robin. Current situation is not good for Damian's generation and seems like encourages Tim to be back as Robin, which is maybe for the best for the character (at least the Drake thing was over)
    Kid Lantern is closer to Damian's age than Tim's, if she doesn't count there's still Tai if DC ever makes him canon.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  5. #4385
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    And man do I wish they'd make him canon. Dude's a way better character than the Teen Lantern that we got stuck with.

  6. #4386
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1&onlyE. View Post
    About Damian's generation, I think DC's hesitation when it comes to them derives from the fact that they bring continuity problems. Think about it: the only reason Damian exists is because Grant Morrison created him and they have a huge name in the industry. Dan Didio wanted to kill Dick because he thought his character brought continuity problems, but then he allows Batman's bio son to exist in main continuity? lol Is really funny actually.
    Morrison is indeed created Damian, but they also the one who planned his death. After Batman Inc, Morrison doesn't have any influence to push Damian on the spotlight. I mean, Morrison didn't include him on any of their next stories (except that one hug with Jon), unlike Synder who tried to bring his creations every time he has chances. Morrison didn't even create new Lantern to be on Damian's generation, even though they has the chance to do so. Not that I blame them for that, it's good that Morrison founded and wrapped Damian's story, then let other writers do the rest. Didio is the one who planned 5G, the same universe which probably painted Damian as 'baby hitler' villains, so I think Damian's existence is only angst drama fodder for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by the1&onlyE. View Post
    So far, on one hand, Damian's generation has been based in children from the JL, like him and Jon, but DC doesn't want to bring this level of development to all of their heroes. They surely don't want Wonder Woman to have a child, and because of that we don't have a younger Wonder Girl so far, even though Lyta Trevor existed in the past. Yara might in fact change that, but we don't know yet. I really hope yes, though! Aquaman recently had a kid, but I don't know what will happen to Andy. Will she stick post-Future State or disappear? Will she be aged a little bit? Will she still be just a baby? No idea.

    On the other hand, however, you also have characters like Wally and Red Arrow that technically are from Damian's generation, but are a little bit older and don't follow the "son of X" trope. I really don't know what to say about this characters, they seem to be less memorable, but that's not necesserally because they are bad characters, I think they just hadn't had a good push so far. (And I'll be honest, I don't really want to read Damian interacting with them for a while lol.)
    Do you mean bio children? Because I think Wally, Roy, Kon, and Cassie are also children of their respective mentor (and Kon is technically Superman's bio child). If so, that's quite untrue, before Jon existed, Chris is the one who get paired with Damian, and he's not Superman's bio child. I don't know about Andy, but Jackson Hyde (Aqualad) is created on Damian's Teen Titans so I count him as Damian's generation, yet he's not Aquaman's bio child (even though maybe now he's on Tim's generation). But damn, Damian can't keep any of his friends at all. Emiko is on good term with Damian, even he visited Emiko on hospital. And Wallace, even though they're not really on good term and Damian fired him, Percy made them make up and expressing their want to learn how to work on team together. The everything change when the Didio attacks, whomst he declared that Damian had to be alone on his dark journey, too broody or not too broody, that is the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by the1&onlyE. View Post
    Anyway, the point is, this third generation needs something that differentiates them, because we already have 2 generations of sidekicks, so they are in the brink of becoming a copy of the others. They can grow in number of characters, but DC needs to be willing to accept some new elements in continuity.
    Agreed, and honestly for me it's fine if Damian doesn't have his own generation, because I don't really prefer him on story team. His character has a bad habit to stand out and overshadow other character so for me he works best on solo or duo.
    Last edited by Light of Justice; 11-22-2020 at 11:11 AM.

  7. #4387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Morrison is indeed created Damian, but they also the one who planned his death. After Batman Inc, Morrison doesn't have any influence to push Damian on the spotlight. I mean, Morrison didn't include him on any of their next stories (except that one hug with Jon), unlike Synder who tried to bring his creations every time he has chances. Morrison didn't even create new Lantern to be on Damian's generation, even though they has the chance to do so. Not that I blame them for that, it's good that Morrison founded and wrapped Damian's story, then let other writers do the rest. Didio is the one who planned 5G, the same universe which probably painted Damian as 'baby hitler' villains, so I think Damian's existence is only angst drama fodder for him.
    Yes, that makes sense. But even after Damian died, Didio could have not allowed him to come back. Maybe he even didn't want him to come back, but someone from above called the shots? Anyway, like you said, he definetely became an angst source for Bruce. lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Do you mean bio children? Because I think Wally, Roy, Kon, and Cassie are also children of their respective mentor (and Kon is technically Superman's bio child). If so, that's quite untrue, before Jon existed, Chris is the one who get paired with Damian, and he's not Superman's bio child. I don't know about Andy, but Jackson Hyde (Aqualad) is created on Damian's Teen Titans so I count him as Damian's generation, yet he's not Aquaman's bio child (even though maybe now he's on Tim's generation). But damn, Damian can't keep any of his friends at all. Emiko is on good term with Damian, even he visited Emiko on hospital. And Wallace, even though they're not really on good term and Damian fired him, Percy made them make up and expressing their want to learn how to work on team together. The everything change when the Didio attacks, whomst he declared that Damian had to be alone on his dark journey, too broody or not too broody, that is the question.
    Yes, sorry, I did meant bio children. And this might be a new trend after Jon came up and Supersons was created, because I have to say I didn't really think about the pre-Rebirth was, since Damian was not really part of any team then. A legit question: were Damian and Chris paired up in main continuity before? I can only remember them together in The Multiversity: The Just. And I actually didn't know Jackson Hyde was created to be part of Damian's generation lololol, I think Young Justice animated tricked me. Sorry.

    But you are right to mention that Damian is never really allowed to keep his friendships, so we don't even know how a team would work in the long term.

  8. #4388
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    Yes, that makes sense. But even after Damian died, Didio could have not allowed him to come back. Maybe he even didn't want him to come back, but someone from above called the shots? Anyway, like you said, he definetely became an angst source for Bruce. lol
    WB forced them to bring Damian back to life. Snyder, for example, wasn't happy with him hanging around.
    In addition to this, by that time he had already formed quite solid popularity, the fans were unhappy with his death. That's why it happened.

  9. #4389
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1&onlyE. View Post
    Yes, sorry, I did meant bio children. And this might be a new trend after Jon came up and Supersons was created, because I have to say I didn't really think about the pre-Rebirth was, since Damian was not really part of any team then. A legit question: were Damian and Chris paired up in main continuity before? I can only remember them together in The Multiversity: The Just. And I actually didn't know Jackson Hyde was created to be part of Damian's generation lololol, I think Young Justice animated tricked me. Sorry.
    Chris was created on 2006, on same year as Damian so I've seen many pre-flashpoint fanart paired them together as World's Finest. On canon pre-flashpoint, indeed Damian was not in any team except his brief moment on Tim's TT and on one Batman/Superman issue #75, Conner was the future Superman on Damian's side as future Batman.
    About Jackson, sorry I don't really understand him, nor read Aquaman. I think now there's 3 different version of him? But Rebirth Jackson has his first appearance (?) and his origin was explained on Damian's TT.

  10. #4390
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Chris was created on 2006, on same year as Damian so I've seen many pre-flashpoint fanart paired them together as World's Finest. On canon pre-flashpoint, indeed Damian was not in any team except his brief moment on Tim's TT and on one Batman/Superman issue #75, Conner was the future Superman on Damian's side as future Batman.
    About Jackson, sorry I don't really understand him, nor read Aquaman. I think now there's 3 different versions of him? But Rebirth Jackson has his first appearance (?) and his origin was explained on Damian's TT.
    Chris is Damian's Superman in Multiversity too, while Damian dated Alexis Luthor, in Earth something-something where villains are gone that all DC people do is treat heroes like a celebrity

    Jackson Hyde first appears I think in Pre-52 Brightest Day, sporting dreadlocks. He was meant to be part of Tim's Teen Titans since he at that time recently returned to it as Red Robin.

    He didn't appear in New 52 as far as I remember.

    Then in Rebirth, they gave him YJ Kaldur's appearance, where it's also the first time they mention he's gay, which is also to relate him to Kaldur who's revealed in Season 3 as... bi? I forget. Recently he's back in locks
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 11-22-2020 at 11:35 PM.

  11. #4391
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Chris is Damian's Superman in Multiversity too, while Damian dated Alexis Luthor, in Earth something-something where villains are gone that all DC people do is treat heroes like a celebrity

    Jackson Hyde first appears I think in Pre-52 Brightest Day, sporting dreadlocks. He was meant to be part of Tim's Teen Titans since he at that time recently returned to it as Red Robin.

    He didn't appear in New 52 as far as I remember.

    Then in Rebirth, they gave him YJ Kaldur's appearance, where it's also the first time they mention he's gay, which is also to relate him to Kaldur who's revealed in Season 3 as... bi? I forget. Recently he's back in locks
    Pan, for Kaldur actually.

  12. #4392
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Tim Drake got watered down because some of his fans thought the only way to make him interesting was to keep him as Robin forever.

    Jason will always be the Red Hood, Damian becoming an Anti-hero can never over shadow that. It's like saying Tim aging up to Red Robin would waterdown Nightwing.
    Really? Damian already overshadowed him when it comes to his niche. TT had him doing what should be Jason's role while lobdell defanged Jason

    Jason is running around shooting blanks [that rubber bullet nonsense is so lame say what you will about ToT Tim at least his guns fired real bullets] Damian on the other hand is ending named villains and taking the war on crime one step further.

    Damian is the bat who does what batman can not do.

    Jason is making agreements with Bruce to play by his rules and when he steps out of line Bruce beats him like a bitch

    Damian is stepping out of line breaking the rules and when Bruce confronted him he stood his ground.

    Now I get that Damian is 13 so Bruce can't hit nor should he but Damian is making Jason look like a bitch not the bat family bad boy.

    The red hood is supposed to be the bat who does what Bruce can't. The anti hero.

    He isn't. Damian is.

    When Bane took over Gotham, Jason was the only bat who obeyed the terrorists.
    He is the only bat who is willing to compromise on his principles to please Bruce.

    These all undermine his role.

    Red Robin is a watered down nightwing. Those are not my words but the words of Geoff Johns which is why he advised Snyder to make Duke something different . Something that doesn't already exist.

    Nightwing is a batman type spandex clad hero who used to be Robin. What is Red Robin? In the new 52 he was a nightwing lite now in rebrith he's Robin lite

    Who is red Hood? A Robin who died came back and then what? He isn't trying to kill Joker, he isn't trying to end bad guys or the worst guys.

    he is just trolling batman by dressing up as one of his foes without making any effort to go after Joker. I guess you are right. Damian could never water that down. He doesn't have a leather Jacket for one.

    lets face it TT Damian took over what should be Jason's role in the family. he became the Robin who died, came back and does the things that batman can't.
    Last edited by Fergus; 11-23-2020 at 09:58 AM.

  13. #4393
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Snyder and co can learn something from Morrison about how to handle original characters.

    He created Damian for a story and after his story was done he tried to put his toys back in the box not push out/undermine existing characters in a effort to push OC's.

    The reason being that Morrison created his OC for story purposes while someone like harper was created just so the writer can say they added something/leave their make on batman myth,

  14. #4394
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Really? Damian already overshadowed him when it comes to his niche. TT had him doing what should be Jason's role while lobdell defanged Jason

    Jason is running around shooting blanks [that rubber bullet nonsense is so lame say what you will about ToT Tim at least his guns fired real bullets] Damian on the other hand is ending named villains and taking the war on crime one step further.

    Damian is the bat who does what batman can not do.

    Jason is making agreements with Bruce to play by his rules and when he steps out of line Bruce beats him like a bitch

    Damian is stepping out of line breaking the rules and when Bruce confronted him he stood his ground.

    Now I get that Damian is 13 so Bruce can't hit nor should he but Damian is making Jason look like a bitch not the bat family bad boy.

    The red hood is supposed to be the bat who does what Bruce can't. The anti hero.

    He isn't. Damian is.

    When Bane took over Gotham, Jason was the only bat who obeyed the terrorists.
    He is the only bat who is willing to compromise on his principles to please Bruce.

    These all undermine his role.

    Red Robin is a watered down nightwing. Those are not my words but the words of Geoff Johns which is why he advised Snyder to make Duke something different . Something that doesn't already exist.

    Nightwing is a batman type spandex clad hero who used to be Robin. What is Red Robin? In the new 52 he was a nightwing lite now in rebrith he's Robin lite

    Who is red Hood? A Robin who died came back and then what? He isn't trying to kill Joker, he isn't trying to end bad guys or the worst guys.

    he is just trolling batman by dressing up as one of his foes without making any effort to go after Joker. I guess you are right. Damian could never water that down. He doesn't have a leather Jacket for one.

    lets face it TT Damian took over what should be Jason's role in the family. he became the Robin who died, came back and does the things that batman can't.
    I think you're overselling Damian here.

    Damian is not "the bat who can do what batman can't" because 1.) that plan blew up in his face cause it led to the teen titans almost breaking up and 2.) nothing he did had a long-term effect. He killed Deathstroke when Batman couldn't? Nope, Emiko did that and Deathstroke came back anyway. He made a brainwashing prison for villains who need to be stopped? Djinn was the real mastermind. He took out KGBeast when Nightwing couldn't? Nope, his own team messed that up.

    Besides that, Red Hood has the better storylines right now, no amount of edgy Damian can overshadow him. He's evolved past just being the "anti-hero", he's now the hero who forms bonds with other outlawed heroes. To say Red Robin "watered-down" Nightwing would imply that the character managed to upstaged Nightwing and that's just not the case.

    The only role TT Damian has taken is the bratty prodigal son, I never got Red Hood from that because he's already grown past that stage.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  15. #4395
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    I think you're overselling Damian here.

    Damian is not "the bat who can do what batman can't" because 1.) that plan blew up in his face cause it led to the teen titans almost breaking up and 2.) nothing he did had a long-term effect. He killed Deathstroke when Batman couldn't? Nope, Emiko did that and Deathstroke came back anyway. He made a brainwashing prison for villains who need to be stopped? Djinn was the real mastermind. He took out KGBeast when Nightwing couldn't? Nope, his own team messed that up.

    Besides that, Red Hood has the better storylines right now, no amount of edgy Damian can overshadow him. He's evolved past just being the "anti-hero", he's now the hero who forms bonds with other outlawed heroes. To say Red Robin "watered-down" Nightwing would imply that the character managed to upstaged Nightwing and that's just not the case.

    The only role TT Damian has taken is the bratty prodigal son, I never got Red Hood from that because he's already grown past that stage.
    I don't think you are even aware what the conversation is here.

    There is no overselling Damian here since this shouldn't be his role no matter how well he does in the role it's not his so it's pointless. His fans don't want him in that role. I don't want him in that role. his story so far shouldn't be going in that direction. Damian occupying this role =a failure for the character. It's a regression. Damian was one of the greatest assassins the world never knew [according to RSOB] he is a killer turned hero.

    Him going from hero to zero. From hero to outlaw is a failure for him so there's nothing to oversell.


    1,The outcome of tt doesn't matter, what matters is that Damian had a plan, put the plan into motion. Jason never even got to the having a plan part

    2,Damian had a plan for stopping crime that went beyond putting bad guys in jail

    3. Well if he did indeed kill brother blood then that is a long term but the whole point is that there is no permanent solution to crime.

    4,Oh so Djinn was the real mastermind behind the mindwipes? That good to know. Could you point me to where it says so in TT plz.

    5, Neither batman nor Damian ever tried to kill Deathstroke. What are you talking about?

    Anyway the point is Damian is acting more like an Outlaw than jason. While red Hood is acting more like a bat sidekick. One of them is currently an outlaw while the other is working with the Batfamily.

    Jason should be the outlaw while damian should be the kid working on his redemption and a sidekick. Do you get me?

    Both Damian and Jason are bratty kids only Jason is a grown ass man. There is no reason for a man to be trolling his step dad, shooting blanks and throwing tantrums.

    Because DC won't let Jason kill Joker or any of the really bad guys that makes his whole running around in Joker's hand me downs and all his talk about some bad guys needed harsher punishment nothing but empty tantrums.

    Best is subjective. DCeased and Batman Beyond have been the only 2 good books with any of the bats for sometime now.
    Lobdell has had him chasing his tail for years now. Johns and Taylor really phoned it in with their portrayals of the character in 3 Jokers and Dceased which is par for the course with DC writers and Jason

    Why do you keep saying upstage? You realise that upstage and water down aren't the same? Right?
    To water down means to dilute
    to upstage means to divert attention

    They are not the same thing. damian isn't diverting attention from jason but he is watering down his role. Jason has a niche in the Bat franchise. The outlaw the bat who does what Batman can not do. However when Damian is written to be the Outlaw and the one breaking the rules then he's stepping on Jason's toes. Cutting into his niche. watering down his brand.

    Does that makes more sense?

    Also I don't think any of the bat boys could out edge Jason till he puts some real bullets in those guns. That is the height of egdelord
    Last edited by Fergus; 11-23-2020 at 08:12 PM.

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