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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Sideshow Robin Premuim Format figure hybrid Damian with Katana [swap head of Tim ]




  2. #92
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The best Super Sons fanfic I have come across is Multiversal Constant. It takes places during the first run of Super Sons, right after the boys finish up their fight on the magic planet, they try and get home, only to wind up on Young Justice season 1. And completely derail the series of events.

    https://archiveofourown.org/works/14...pters/33107610
    Loved this. Thanks so much for recommending

  3. #93
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Loved this. Thanks so much for recommending
    No problem!

    Trying to wade through all the Super Sons fics to find something NOT shipping Jon and Damian (on the less graphic side) is much harder then I thought when I first found this. Even with excluding various tags.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    I liked the art but the plot...I still don't know what the hell that Damian reveal was about. Someone online though the issue was about Bruce not letting Damian in, others thought it was about Bruce fearing Damian might kill again...which is also weird because 1) why use Pyg of all people 2) King's Batman spends zero time thinking about Damian and how he's doing before and after this issue. I have a hard time believing he's concerned enough to have a whole issue dedicated to this fear.

    Anyway, none of it came up ever again.
    Okay. Let's pretend that Tom King is actually a good writer and that the story is actually deep and meaningful not "Batman loves Catwoman."

    Nightmares makes sense if it's an homage to the Batman: TAS episode, the Superman/Batman issue, and Final Crisis where the villains trap Bruce in a lotus eating machine and attempt to make him happy. Remember, this was both Bane's and Thomas's stated goals. Also remember that Hugo Strange is the one who created Gotham Girl and sent her to Batman, as well as Gotham Girl triggering his first reaching out and then proposing to Selina.

    Hugo Strange is the biggest in universe BatCat shipper, and for most of comics history, the only one besides Talia. (BruTalia had lots of shippers in universe, as lampshaded in the Leviathan books where people like Steve Trevor admit to manipulating them together in order to keep both in check, particularly Talia who was shown to be damn near unstoppable when indifferent to Bruce.)

    The other major thing to consider is Strange thinks that the only way for Batman to be happy is for not just BatCat to happen, but the Robins have got to go. If you pay attention to all the comics referenced in the BatCat memories, you'll catch that they all involve Selina either endangering Dick and Jason, or trying to convince Bruce to choose her above them. Readers talk about how evil the Joker was for erasing Selina's memories, however, in the story it is unequivocally presented as for the best since she was pushing for Bruce to get rid of Jason in favor of her.

    Note which Robin was the first to have his relationship with Batman annihilated due to BatCat.

    Dick's more difficult to get rid of, but again, as constant readers we will remember the Gotham Knights storyline where Bruce purposely created false memories in order to defeat strange. His trigger to return to normal was Dick's belief in the cause. Yes, there was a bit of a head injury and drugging in that story.

    Tim's not relevant as by the time he showed up DC had decided to redeem Selina. He's never been a threat to the relationship, indeed, he's a shipper. Hence his being out of the King series except for being presented as the most loyal, loving, faithful son despite getting punched in the face.

    Damian is the biggest threat to the BatCat relationship. In fact, as the minor child, in real life he has full veto power over the engagement and marriage as any good single parent will tell you. He's also been shown by multiple writers to be Bruce's actual sanity and morality leash, as well as someone who more than any other Robin or love interest brings light and joy into Bruce's life while making him a better detective and person.

    So that all in mind, go back to Nightmares and consider the addition of Thomas Wayne to the story. Thomas keeps considering Bruce a child. In all fairness, Bruce with Selina acts like a not particularly mature, hormone addled, sex obsessed teenager. It's why so many people relate to him, and think that King has portrayed a deep and meaningful adult relationship despite the fact that on the Hallmark channel or in a romance novel, the reader/observers would be catching all the red flags and looking for the actual love interest to show up. (A rom com or movie obviously would follow King's plot and ideas as those are written by and for men who, as everyone knows, aren't as critical as adult women.) Thomas has a weird psycho sexual relationship with Selina and, apparently, Bruce. He has motive to eliminate Damian from the picture as: a) Martha is canonically the BruTalia shipper and shot Selina, and b) he's killed Talia and then was shown to be a bs parent by world's worst dad Ra's who gladly gave his life for Talia. Which all of us Damian fans should have snagged onto as Ra's's sacrifice mirrors Bruce's efforts to raise Damian.

    Onto Pyg. Pyg is Damian's villain. Pyg targets children and gets unpredictable when Damian is dead. Pyg talked to Batwoman about Damian's death and how he wanted drugs to deal with it. Pyg actively stalks Damian in and out of uniform. His other appearances are in locations where Damian, if you're paying attention, is also at in unrelated stories. Pyg talks about Damian's "dating" life. Pyg has nicknames for Damian. Pyg literally knows everything about Damian and has created Dollotrons based on Damian, with Pyg's favorite being dressed in the short shorts.

    Pyg is the definition of a parent's worst nightmare.

    Which is why that nightmare is so jarringly different from the rest. It's an adult fear. Everything else with Selina is an adolescent fear. Being dumped with no explanation? By the time someone is 25 it's happened multiple times. An engagement called off? Ditto for many people. By Bruce's age, unless there's outside pressures, his reactions to Selina are unrealistic and unreasonable. Heck, he's been engaged twice before since Damian's introduction in universe, and one of those women was murdered.

    Knowing, but not addressing, that your child has a sexual predator and serial killer stalking them? That's high stakes poker compared to the Candyland game of BatCat.

    It's also his subconscious screaming that everything is wrong, and just like the Bruce Babar from Seely's story he's going to lose his son if he doesn't stop focusing on Selina. Which, we the Constant Readers, know is happening as external forces coupled with emotional abuse and neglect are destroying the foundations of Bruce and Damian's relationship.

    Of course, that all hinges on the massive assumption that Tom King is actually a good writer and everything he's been pushing about Bruce and Selina is a lie and what the attentive readers (not fans, but the critical and experienced readers) are reading is the real story. It would also explain why Kiteman has become relevant, as it will be Bruce's own actions and unhealthily absorbed relationship with Selina that will result in Damian's becoming lost and outside of Bruce's abilities to bring back.

    Which depending on how you feel about the second annual and BatCat, where Jean Paul is present but not Damian, has been presented as for the best.

    To summarize: Bruce has realized he's in a lotus eating machine and immediately grabs onto the worst possible connections he knows of in order to trigger the hormones necessary to escape. Obviously it doesn't work, so he has to tone it down repeatedly by fixating on childish concerns: a romantic relationship with his own stalker, and thank you Tom King for making Selina Kyle into someone who decided as a child to marry Bruce Wayne and became Catwoman to achieve that goal.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Okay. Let's pretend that Tom King is actually a good writer and that the story is actually deep and meaningful not "Batman loves Catwoman."

    Nightmares makes sense if it's an homage to the Batman: TAS episode, the Superman/Batman issue, and Final Crisis where the villains trap Bruce in a lotus eating machine and attempt to make him happy. Remember, this was both Bane's and Thomas's stated goals. Also remember that Hugo Strange is the one who created Gotham Girl and sent her to Batman, as well as Gotham Girl triggering his first reaching out and then proposing to Selina.

    Hugo Strange is the biggest in universe BatCat shipper, and for most of comics history, the only one besides Talia. (BruTalia had lots of shippers in universe, as lampshaded in the Leviathan books where people like Steve Trevor admit to manipulating them together in order to keep both in check, particularly Talia who was shown to be damn near unstoppable when indifferent to Bruce.)

    The other major thing to consider is Strange thinks that the only way for Batman to be happy is for not just BatCat to happen, but the Robins have got to go. If you pay attention to all the comics referenced in the BatCat memories, you'll catch that they all involve Selina either endangering Dick and Jason, or trying to convince Bruce to choose her above them. Readers talk about how evil the Joker was for erasing Selina's memories, however, in the story it is unequivocally presented as for the best since she was pushing for Bruce to get rid of Jason in favor of her.

    Note which Robin was the first to have his relationship with Batman annihilated due to BatCat.

    Dick's more difficult to get rid of, but again, as constant readers we will remember the Gotham Knights storyline where Bruce purposely created false memories in order to defeat strange. His trigger to return to normal was Dick's belief in the cause. Yes, there was a bit of a head injury and drugging in that story.

    Tim's not relevant as by the time he showed up DC had decided to redeem Selina. He's never been a threat to the relationship, indeed, he's a shipper. Hence his being out of the King series except for being presented as the most loyal, loving, faithful son despite getting punched in the face.

    Damian is the biggest threat to the BatCat relationship. In fact, as the minor child, in real life he has full veto power over the engagement and marriage as any good single parent will tell you. He's also been shown by multiple writers to be Bruce's actual sanity and morality leash, as well as someone who more than any other Robin or love interest brings light and joy into Bruce's life while making him a better detective and person.

    So that all in mind, go back to Nightmares and consider the addition of Thomas Wayne to the story. Thomas keeps considering Bruce a child. In all fairness, Bruce with Selina acts like a not particularly mature, hormone addled, sex obsessed teenager. It's why so many people relate to him, and think that King has portrayed a deep and meaningful adult relationship despite the fact that on the Hallmark channel or in a romance novel, the reader/observers would be catching all the red flags and looking for the actual love interest to show up. (A rom com or movie obviously would follow King's plot and ideas as those are written by and for men who, as everyone knows, aren't as critical as adult women.) Thomas has a weird psycho sexual relationship with Selina and, apparently, Bruce. He has motive to eliminate Damian from the picture as: a) Martha is canonically the BruTalia shipper and shot Selina, and b) he's killed Talia and then was shown to be a bs parent by world's worst dad Ra's who gladly gave his life for Talia. Which all of us Damian fans should have snagged onto as Ra's's sacrifice mirrors Bruce's efforts to raise Damian.

    Onto Pyg. Pyg is Damian's villain. Pyg targets children and gets unpredictable when Damian is dead. Pyg talked to Batwoman about Damian's death and how he wanted drugs to deal with it. Pyg actively stalks Damian in and out of uniform. His other appearances are in locations where Damian, if you're paying attention, is also at in unrelated stories. Pyg talks about Damian's "dating" life. Pyg has nicknames for Damian. Pyg literally knows everything about Damian and has created Dollotrons based on Damian, with Pyg's favorite being dressed in the short shorts.

    Pyg is the definition of a parent's worst nightmare.

    Which is why that nightmare is so jarringly different from the rest. It's an adult fear. Everything else with Selina is an adolescent fear. Being dumped with no explanation? By the time someone is 25 it's happened multiple times. An engagement called off? Ditto for many people. By Bruce's age, unless there's outside pressures, his reactions to Selina are unrealistic and unreasonable. Heck, he's been engaged twice before since Damian's introduction in universe, and one of those women was murdered.

    Knowing, but not addressing, that your child has a sexual predator and serial killer stalking them? That's high stakes poker compared to the Candyland game of BatCat.

    It's also his subconscious screaming that everything is wrong, and just like the Bruce Babar from Seely's story he's going to lose his son if he doesn't stop focusing on Selina. Which, we the Constant Readers, know is happening as external forces coupled with emotional abuse and neglect are destroying the foundations of Bruce and Damian's relationship.

    Of course, that all hinges on the massive assumption that Tom King is actually a good writer and everything he's been pushing about Bruce and Selina is a lie and what the attentive readers (not fans, but the critical and experienced readers) are reading is the real story. It would also explain why Kiteman has become relevant, as it will be Bruce's own actions and unhealthily absorbed relationship with Selina that will result in Damian's becoming lost and outside of Bruce's abilities to bring back.

    Which depending on how you feel about the second annual and BatCat, where Jean Paul is present but not Damian, has been presented as for the best.

    To summarize: Bruce has realized he's in a lotus eating machine and immediately grabs onto the worst possible connections he knows of in order to trigger the hormones necessary to escape. Obviously it doesn't work, so he has to tone it down repeatedly by fixating on childish concerns: a romantic relationship with his own stalker, and thank you Tom King for making Selina Kyle into someone who decided as a child to marry Bruce Wayne and became Catwoman to achieve that goal.
    Can I just say that end result is creepy as all hell. Dealing with adult fears and Bruce having to come to terms with a maturing Damian would be interesting, but this is some grad A weirdness.

  6. #96

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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  10. #100
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    "Okay. Let's pretend that Tom King is actually a good writer and that the story is actually deep and meaningful not "Batman loves Catwoman."
    I applaud your efforts.

    Everytime someone earnestly tries to convince me that King's writing is "totally deep" and that I'm missing subtle hints and references to other stories that are actually genius I have to laugh, especially if we're talking about arcs after #50.
    Just take a look at how much he got wrong about the Flashpoint Universe. Penguin wasn't killed, he managed the casinos Thomas owned, Thomas used different methods than Bruce, but he wasn't insane, Ra's would have had a difficult time carrying Talia's corpse into the Nain Pit, because he had the body of a child, Thomas didn't lose Selina, she was only crippled after getting shot by the Joker, Alfred was never a butler in Flashpoint, he died as a secret agent...

    Long story short: King sucks at doing research.
    If someone thinks something in his writing in Batman feels off, it's more likely that he just didn't bother to put more work into it than King trying to pass along a secret message like Selina and Bruce's relationship actually being toxic.
    Last edited by Ansa; 01-05-2020 at 06:15 AM.

  11. #101

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Oh no, Lego Damian is suffering from the same illness that had befallen Tim in the Batman: Arkham Knight game.

    Nice drawing, even if the subject is a little grim for Lego.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    "Okay. Let's pretend that Tom King is actually a good writer and that the story is actually deep and meaningful not "Batman loves Catwoman."
    I applaud your efforts.

    Everytime someone earnestly tries to convince me that King's writing is "totally deep" and that I'm missing subtle hints and references to other stories that are actually genius I have to laugh, especially if we're talking about arcs after #50.
    Just take a look at how much he got wrong about the Flashpoint Universe. Penguin wasn't killed, he managed the casinos Thomas owned, Thomas used different methods than Bruce, but he wasn't insane, Ra's would have had a difficult time carrying Talia's corpse into the Nain Pit, because he had the body of a child, Thomas didn't lose Selina, she was only crippled after getting shot by the Joker, Alfred was never a butler in Flashpoint, he died as a secret agent...

    Long story short: King sucks at doing research.
    If someone think something in his writing feels off, it's more likely that he just didn't bother to put more work into it than King trying to pass along a secret message like Selina and Bruce's relationship actually being toxic.
    I think he does research/knows the comics but then does what suits his story.

    He could have done so much with BatCat but he ended up ruining it. Selina is Bruce's most popular and recognised love interest how do you make their love feel so forced?

    Why the need to alter past canon just to validate their relationship? No one ever doubted they have feelings for each other.
    Why make it co-dependant? Why have a questionable proposal where he was manipulated when every other time Bruce has proposed it was of his own volition?

    Why complicate something that's so easy and that's been done multiple times before? BatCat's love should be easy to write. There's so much material to guide the writer. smh.

    Batman didn't seem happy either. Felt more like he was in daze/drugged and so robotic. It was strange especially when you have Synder's Batman running along side. Synder's Batman positively glows whenever he's with Jarro. That is a happy Batman.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    Oh no, Lego Damian is suffering from the same illness that had befallen Tim in the Batman: Arkham Knight game.

    Nice drawing, even if the subject is a little grim for Lego.
    Ikr. Lego Heretic giving Lego Damian the Inc treatment

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    I think he does research/knows the comics but then does what suits his story.
    I'm serious about him not doing enough research. He doesn't even remember his own writing, something he admitted himself.

    "King claims that he rarely outlines, proceeding on the assumption that what he forgets wasn't worth remembering in the first place. https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.c...-king-work.amp

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