Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Blue22]

Okay, I'm going to get more explicit, because you don't seem to understand what my problem is, despite me already writing it like three times.

I don't care at what age Tim turned into Red Robin or Robin or how "independent" Damian is. I think he should get his own identity as a sign that he's on the brink of adulthood, not earlier. Not as a 13 year old. This is a personal preference.
It feels like you're trying to convince a person who simply doesn't like apples to eat an apple pie.

Oh I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just expressing why I disagree with that assertion because....well frankly I find it odd.

Dc has two options with Damian. Kill him off or Robin.
Damian is far too young to be an independent hero and Bruce letting him is not acceptable. Dick, Tim and Jason can get independent Ids they are older and are not anchored to bruce the way Damian is.

A 13 year old is too young to just do their own thing. Batman's character has morphed into something far from what he should be but i doubt DC is ready to have a 13 year old out doing his own living god knows where.

At the end of the day, Damian changing his costume and code name now wouldn't make anything terribly different for him. He's already as far removed from Batman as any acting Robin has ever been since, maybe, the end of Dick's tenure. Might as well finalize it at this point since it doesn't look like his relationship with Bruce will be getting better anytime soon. What would change for him if he stopped being Robin, aside from his name? 13 may be too young for a normal child to be on their own. In almost every other case I would agree with that. But...Damian's not a normal child. I enjoy his moments where he gets to be one but, unfortunately, that's just not what he is. He's been taking care of himself since Rebirth started. Maybe even a little before that.

There's no need to do something as extreme as killing him off just because his time as Robin is up. That'd be such a lazy solution and a waste of what could be a solid character arc and new status quo for him. He should not be so tied to the Robin identity that his only option is to die when he loses it.

Damian has died twice if her can't be Robin then there is no place for him. They can ship him back to his mum I guess but there is no Room for a character who isn't doing something

Then give him something to do. He's far past the point where not being Robin anymore means his only other option is go back to his mother's way of life. That just makes it seem like he has no agency of his own. Like he's completely incapable of being a hero without the Robin title. Or that his only option is to bounce back and forth between two neglectful and/or abusive parents. He doesn't need either of them right now and I sincerely hope whoever's writing him going forward has enough of a creative bone in their body to know what they wanna do with him. Because there are a couple of things they could do before going "Whelp, he's not Robin anymore. Guess he should just DIE!"

He can't do his own thing and no being in TT isn't doing his own thing. That is doing the Robin thing. Without Robin he has no business in the TT.

But Dick and Tim both continued being Titans even after they stopped being Robin (hell Dick made his first debut as Nightwing in a Titans book). Why should Damian be any different? I may not really care for his Titans but not being Robin anymore shouldn't have anything to do with him not being with them. Like...that's just straight up incorrect.

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Bear in mind, I don't want Damian to lose Robin yet. I want him and Bruce to be able to work this out so they can go back to being father and son. I want Bruce to stop ignoring his family for a woman who's practically turned stringing him along into an occupation.

But if this is the end for that...so be it. He had a good 14 year run (or 4 years, in universe. Like I said before, he might not even still be 13 right now). But it doesn't have to be the end for Damian as a character. That's just a waste. He doesn't have to be chained to an identity that was meant for Batman's partners, when he hasn't really been Batman's partner for a few years now.

[Fergus]

Oh I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just expressing why I disagree with that assertion because....well frankly I find it odd.



At the end of the day, Damian changing his costume and code name now wouldn't make anything terribly different for him. He's already as far removed from Batman as any acting Robin has ever been since, maybe, the end of Dick's tenure. Might as well finalize it at this point since it doesn't look like his relationship with Bruce will be getting better anytime soon. What would change for him if he stopped being Robin, aside from his name? 13 may be too young for a normal child to be on their own. In almost every other case I would agree with that. But...Damian's not a normal child. I enjoy his moments where he gets to be one but, unfortunately, that's just not what he is. He's been taking care of himself since Rebirth started. Maybe even a little before that.

There's no need to do something as extreme as killing him off just because his time as Robin is up. That'd be such a lazy solution and a waste of what could be a solid character arc and new status quo for him. He should not be so tied to the Robin identity that his only option is to die when he loses it.



Then give him something to do. He's far past the point where not being Robin anymore means his only other option is go back to his mother's way of life. That just makes it seem like he has no agency of his own. Like he's completely incapable of being a hero without the Robin title. Or that his only option is to bounce back and forth between two neglectful and/or abusive parents. He doesn't need either of them right now and I sincerely hope whoever's writing him going forward has enough of a creative bone in their body to know what they wanna do with him. Because there are a couple of things they could do before going "Whelp, he's not Robin anymore. Guess he should just DIE!"



But Dick and Tim both continued being Titans even after they stopped being Robin (hell Dick made his first debut as Nightwing in a Titans book). Why should Damian be any different? I may not really care for his Titans but not being Robin anymore shouldn't have anything to do with him not being with them. Like...that's just straight up incorrect.

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Bear in mind, I don't want Damian to lose Robin yet. I want him and Bruce to be able to work this out so they can go back to being father and son. I want Bruce to stop ignoring his family for a woman who's practically turned stringing him along into an occupation.

But if this is the end for that...so be it. He had a good 14 year run (or 4 years, in universe. Like I said before, he might not even still be 13 right now). But it doesn't have to be the end for Damian as a character. That's just a waste. He doesn't have to be chained to an identity that was meant for Batman's partners, when he hasn't really been Batman's partner for a few years now.

The bulk of Damian stories we've had since Rebirth have had Batman.

Sadly it seems that most Damian fans on here don't even follow the bulk of the stories which he appears in which is the only reason I can see for anyone complaining about the Lack of B&R. Even though the situation of RR, Duke, Kate, Cass, Selina, Steph, Luke, Az have meant that for a while DC had to dedicate the wide reaching bat books towards promoting struggling Bat characters.

This same lack of support for stories and titles where damian cameo's also leads to the claim that few writers can write Damian when majority write him very well.

He has been taking care of himself since Rebirth? That is a lie and you know it. He only moved out off the Manor shortly after the Knightmares arc.

How many titles was he estranged from Bruce? Fewer than they were on good or professional terms.

Dick and Tim weren't fired. If Damian is fired from hero work then that means that he does not have Bruce's approval to work as a hero.

I don't know what books you people are reading but I have my collection here from when Dick was Robin and Jason was the last Robin that was a constant in the Bat books. Tim showed up for most but not all big events.

The Bat family is too bloated if a character doesn't have a purpose then they shouldn't take up panel space that could go to others.

All this talk about Damian taking on a new id. So he takes a new id because he has been fired and then what? He certainly won't be living at the manor. There's already a Red Hood and I doubt he'd be allowed to work in Gotham.

So again i ask what can DC do with a 13 yr old who has been deemed not suited from hero work / who has walked away from heroics because he's dad took issue with his methods or because he himself felt he had failed?

[Aahz]

King didn't do anything to Damian. Synder was the one who pushed Damian out of the Bat Office. Damian is under the Superman editorial Office and he has been since Synder took over Batman.
Synder is the one who has given us two replacement Robins and he is still very much a driving force in Dc and batman.

I'm pretty sure he was in the Batoffice untill Rebirth, and the shift came with Super Sons.

[Aahz]

he has to be doing something to justify why DC is going to give him panel space. RSob worked because he was doing his redemption year. I suppose Dc could give him another solo his title sold better than RHatO but DC keeps pushing that out because Lobdell.

RSob was basically replaced by Super Sons, and the second incarnation of that book had iirc also not pretty low sales numbers in the end.

Comparison with RHatO is also a little tricky since Damian never really had a long lasting ongoing.

[RLV_1996]

The bulk of Damian stories we've had since Rebirth have had Batman.

Sadly it seems that most Damian fans on here don't even follow the bulk of the stories which he appears in which is the only reason I can see for anyone complaining about the Lack of B&R. Even though the situation of RR, Duke, Kate, Cass, Selina, Steph, Luke, Az have meant that for a while DC had to dedicate the wide reaching bat books towards promoting struggling Bat characters.

This same lack of support for stories and titles where damian cameo's also leads to the claim that few writers can write Damian when majority write him very well.

He has been taking care of himself since Rebirth? That is a lie and you know it. He only moved out off the Manor shortly after the Knightmares arc.

How many titles was he estranged from Bruce? Fewer than they were on good or professional terms.

Dick and Tim weren't fired. If Damian is fired from hero work then that means that he does not have Bruce's approval to work as a hero.

I don't know what books you people are reading but I have my collection here from when Dick was Robin and Jason was the last Robin that was a constant in the Bat books. Tim showed up for most but not all big events.

The Bat family is too bloated if a character doesn't have a purpose then they shouldn't take up panel space that could go to others.

All this talk about Damian taking on a new id. So he takes a new id because he has been fired and then what? He certainly won't be living at the manor. There's already a Red Hood and I doubt he'd be allowed to work in Gotham.

So again i ask what can DC do with a 13 yr old who has been deemed not suited from hero work / who has walked away from heroics because he's dad took issue with his methods or because he himself felt he had failed?

You might be right, Damian had his screen time in titles. And technically you could argue that his presence in batbooks is on the level as the rest of batfamily. So, as you said, their professional relationship as Batman and Robin is there.

Put personally, I take the issue not that it’s lacking B&R action, but interaction between characters. He is Bruce’s 13 years old son with issues, and most people here argue for negligence from Bruce as a parent, not as hero mentor. All genuine interactions between them that I could remember came from supersons after rebirth. After that, it’s kinda empty. Maybe you could scratch something after supersons were canceled, from other books that I’m unaware of, but it very little in comparison to Clark and Jon.

I’m not saying that sole focus of batbooks now should be on Bruce and Damian. But his existence should have larger impact on Bruce’s life and should be at least referenced, but it seems people in charge of batbooks like to pretend that Bruce is still in his “eligible bachelor” status quo. That’s where argument of negligence comes from. And that’s the problem with comics now - it’s going in circles, where even major changes are reverted back with time.

But again, that’s my perception of the situation.

[Blue22]

He has been taking care of himself since Rebirth? That is a lie and you know it. He only moved out off the Manor shortly after the Knightmares arc.

Where's the lie? Aside from some cameos and events here and there like Event Leviathan or anything that brings in the Batfamily, Damian's most prominent appearances seem to have him off on his own. I'm not talking about his living situation. You can live with your parent and still be the one taking care of yourself. You can be in the same house as your child and not pay them any mind. That's pretty much what's been going on with those two. They both go in and out of the manor, doing their own things, only working together as Batman and Robin maybe...like three or four times in these past few years? Aside from Event Leviathan, that one arc in Tec, and Super Sons what other times have we really seen them acting as father and son or Batman and Robin? Definitely not during the times where they'd both need each other the most. ****, Damian wasn't even there when the family staged an intervention for Bruce in King's run. Likewise, RIP pretty much implies that Bruce hasn't really done **** to convince Damian that what happened to Alfred wasn't his fault. And I assume quite a bit of time has passed at that point. If they are still the dynamic duo, they're not doing a very good job of showing it in times where it really matters.

Dick and Tim weren't fired. If Damian is fired from hero work then that means that he does not have Bruce's approval to work as a hero.

**** Bruce's approval. This entire Titans run wouldn't be happening right now if he cared about what Bruce approved of.

I don't know what books you people are reading but I have my collection here from when Dick was Robin and Jason was the last Robin that was a constant in the Bat books. Tim showed up for most but not all big events.

I'll concede on that one cuz my memory of events that far back are a hazy and, unlike you, I don't have a collection to back it up lol

I will say though, that what's going on with those two feels way different than what's going on with Tim during his tenure as Robin. I at least had the sense that, even if Tim didn't appear regularly in Bat titles, he and Bruce were still working regularly together during all the times we, as the readers, didn't see them. I don't get that feeling with Bruce and Damian anymore. Not with the versions of both characters that we've been presented with in their main titles.

So again i ask what can DC do with a 13 yr old who has been deemed not suited from hero work / who has walked away from heroics because he's dad took issue with his methods or because he himself felt he had failed?

His only other option certainly isn't to die. All the Robins are different enough from each other to carry their own individual stories. So why is that when Damian loses Robin, suddenly he's got nothing? Whether they'd sell or not is another argument but there are plenty of routes to go with Damian now that don't end with "death" or "back to mom".

- Keep him with his Titans (or even a new team) under his new ID and have that just be his thing for a while.

- Give him a new purpose, a new mission. Redemption's been a big part of his character for a while. Capitalize on that. Have him continue his journey to make up for old mistakes as well as the newer ones that he's made. Hell, I've always liked the idea of him and Maya (or even just him, by himself) starting their own heroic version of the LoA when they're older. Have this route be the seed that plants that for the future (5G, I guess).

- Have him switch over to being Dick's partner when/if all the Ric nonsense is over. Maybe he thinks he's lost his way and needs a refresher on being a hero. And what better way to do that than with the person who he began his hero career with?

And those are just things off the top of my head.

You might be right, Damian had his screen time in titles. And technically you could argue that his presence in batbooks is on the level as the rest of batfamily. So, as you said, their professional relationship as Batman and Robin is there.

Put personally, I take the issue not that it’s lacking B&R action, but interaction between characters. He is Bruce’s 13 years old son with issues, and most people here argue for negligence from Bruce as a parent, not as hero mentor. All genuine interactions between them that I could remember came from supersons after rebirth. After that, it’s kinda empty. Maybe you could scratch something after supersons were canceled, from other books that I’m unaware of, but it very little in comparison to Clark and Jon.

I’m not saying that sole focus of batbooks now should be on Bruce and Damian. But his existence should have larger impact on Bruce’s life and should be at least referenced, but it seems people in charge of batbooks like to pretend that Bruce is still in his “eligible bachelor” status quo. That’s where argument of negligence comes from. And that’s the problem with comics now - it’s going in circles, where even major changes are reverted back with time.

^^Pretty much all of this^^

Though I'd argue that Bruce is still pretty negligent as a hero/mentor too. Depending on how this timeline of events played out, I call so much BS on him just finding out what Damian's been up to if he was paying even the slightest bit of attention to him.

[Darkspellmaster]

I would think one way to fix his status is by having him be a focus of the next Young Justice TV show. Or do a super son's tv show. Thay would help put both boys onto a better situation.

Not to mention Dick and Tim both have TV shows with them. And Jason's dubious distinction of being the dead one so that helps. Damian needs that push.

[sifighter]

I would think one way to fix his status is by having him be a focus of the next Young Justice TV show. Or do a super son's tv show. Thay would help put both boys onto a better situation.

Not to mention Dick and Tim both have TV shows with them. And Jason's dubious distinction of being the dead one so that helps. Damian needs that push.

I mean he did recently get teased in Young Justice but as a baby and since that show has played with more real time elements, or characters actually aging and progressing, it might take a while for Damian to actually be anything like the one we know in the comics(unless more hyper aging is involved).

I could see that with the CW Superman family show coming and the fact that Batman did exist at some point be a possibility for a live action Damian and Jon, but that would again be different especially since it’s in the CW universe.

Honestly I like the focus he’s got going for him in the animated movie universe, I just think they actually need to promote and market those movies more.

[Blue22]

I mean he did recently get teased in Young Justice but as a baby and since that show has played with more real time elements, or characters actually aging and progressing, it might take a while for Damian to actually be anything like the one we know in the comics(unless more hyper aging is involved).

Apparently there's going to be another time skip between seasons 3 and 4 (not sure how I feel about that, to be honest). Depending on how long that is, we very well could see all those kids, that were teased in the third season, as heroes. I just hope Phil Bourassa gets a bit more creative with the character designs so that Damian doesn't look exactly how he does in the movies. It was jarring enough seeing Talia's "meh" movie design (right down to the exact same outfit) appear in YJ when the tie-in comics already gave her a really good design. Or all the YJ characters who show up as background extras in the animated movies (or Harper Row's design literally being a recolor of Tara).

Tara and Artemis' relationship in season 3 is a lot more hilarious when you realize Artemis was part of the mob that tortured her in the Judas Contract movie XD

[RLV_1996]

Just silly thoughts to lighten up the atmosphere here.
With us speculating, Batman 666, (and DC hinting) that Damian might go dark path, I think I found Damian's soulmate.

Welcome Gabriel Belmont from Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (https://www.giantbomb.com/gabriel-belmont/3005-12350/)


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Description from in-game: "As an infant he was found abandoned at the door of one of the brotherhood of light convents. It is not known who his original parents were. Some suspects that he was the unwanted bastard of a local wealthy landowner, most likely from the Cronqvist family, though this has never been proved. The order named the boy after the archangel Gabriel and raised him as one its own. A precocious child, he quickly proved to be extremely talented, developing an unprecedented mastery over the fighting arts. Gabriel took the surname of Belmont from his love of the mountains and the high places of the world.
Prone to dark moods and occasional ambivalence, Gabriel was deeply affected by the death of his childhood sweetheart, Marie. He has embarked on this quest at the request of the elders of the brotherhood, and has a burning desire for revenge."


Short story short: As most skillful warrior of this Brotherhood of Light, he travels the world to defeat three Lords of Shadow - of Werefolves, Vampires and Necromancers, and recollect pieces of powerful artefact, Mask of God . He is successful in this, and reunites the mask, but sacrifices parts of his humanity in this brutal quest. Gabriel believes that it would allow to resurrect his wife.
However, he finds out that he was manipulated all this time by the last Lord and actually killed his wife himself, under Lord's magic influence.

[Digifiend]

I mean he did recently get teased in Young Justice but as a baby and since that show has played with more real time elements, or characters actually aging and progressing, it might take a while for Damian to actually be anything like the one we know in the comics(unless more hyper aging is involved).

I could see that with the CW Superman family show coming and the fact that Batman did exist at some point be a possibility for a live action Damian and Jon, but that would again be different especially since it’s in the CW universe.

YJ does timeskip every season though. Season 1 had 13 year old Dick Robin. Season 2 five years later had Nightwing, Tim Robin and Barbara Batgirl. Season 3 added more characters. I don't know how far ahead season 4 is set, but surely by season 5 we'd see the Super Sons join the Team. Come to think of it, I wonder if YJ inspired the Generation Five thing the comics have planned? Even in season 3 some characters are quite a bit older than they are in the comics.

Arrowverse Jon is already confirmed to be happening, we know two teens have been cast to play Jon and his brother in Superman and Lois. For some reason the other Kent boy is called Jordan, not Chris or Conner.

[RLV_1996]

Gabriel uses mask to defeat re-emerged Satan, but found that mask can't actually bring people back. Lost after all this, he sacrifices his humanity to become vampire, in order to enter alt. dimension unsuited for normal humans, kill local demon and prevent futher invasions to Earth. After that, abandoned to himself by order he served, consumed by dark emotions, he became the creature of darkness - Dracula

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But plot twist, people in charge of this Brotherhood actually forsaw all of this **** years before all it happened (kinda like one Legion of Superjerks). They chose to tell only his wife about all what they saw, thinking that Gabriel's dark fate is pre-determined. And while Gabriel was gone on some knight quest, his wife gave birth to a boy, which elders hid from Gabriel. After Dracula emerged, they send this boy to fight him, and Dracula of course killed him, not aware who this boy is. You can see more on this story if you are interested, gameplay is on Youtube and it's impossible to tell it all in this post.

Just kinda having fun with potential analogies here

[sifighter]

YJ does timeskip every season though. Season 1 had 13 year old Dick Robin. Season 2 five years later had Nightwing, Tim Robin and Barbara Batgirl. Season 3 added more characters. I don't know how far ahead season 4 is set, but surely by season 5 we'd see the Super Sons join the Team. Come to think of it, I wonder if YJ inspired the Generation Five thing the comics have planned? Even in season 3 some characters are quite a bit older than they are in the comics.

Arrowverse Jon is already confirmed to be happening, we know two teens have been cast to play Jon and his brother in Superman and Lois. For some reason the other Kent boy is called Jordan, not Chris or Conner.

I could see it inspiring Kaldur Aquaman in the comics since that was pretty popular and a big deal when the show was returning. The animation side of things has been very good at influencing the comics whether intentional or not. Snyder's team was just Justice League Unlimited, everyone wants the teen titans cartoon line-up of teen titans, and we have Batman Beyond comic that they have somewhat tried to keep in continuity. But I think that while they could inspire the comics that it won't necessarily carry over well because the difference in the universes in terms of continuity but also that TV and animated movie progress differently then comics because in a sense they have to progress differently for their audience.

However like I said I could see the popularity of YJ and maybe even the animated movies spilling over into the comics to move things with Generation five. I also wouldn't be surprised if in the future we got a DCuniverse or HBOmax animated series about a teenage or preteen Jon Kent being superboy (if Krypto can get his own cartoon so can Jon).

[Aahz]

YJ does timeskip every season though. Season 1 had 13 year old Dick Robin. Season 2 five years later had Nightwing, Tim Robin and Barbara Batgirl. Season 3 added more characters. I don't know how far ahead season 4 is set, but surely by season 5 we'd see the Super Sons join the Team. Come to think of it, I wonder if YJ inspired the Generation Five thing the comics have planned? Even in season 3 some characters are quite a bit older than they are in the comics

I doubt that they will such a big time skip as they did between season 1 and 2 again. Between 2 and 3 they skipped afaik only 2 years.

[Jackalope89]

I doubt that they will such a big time skip as they did between season 1 and 2 again. Between 2 and 3 they skipped afaik only 2 years.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a 10 year (give or take) timeskip for season 4. A couple years though, yes. What's more, in the same episode Damian was teased, it was confirmed that Jason Todd was there as well (though how that will affect things, I have no idea, considering the trouble he gave Bruce in Under the Red Hood, he could cause trouble for the main cast).