Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Yennefer]

Ha! Snap! Son of Batman got me into comics too and just like you I also wasn't aware that there were other Robins besides Dick the one that wore what looked like underpants that everyone knew. He was also in the movie.
And now Damian the new one.

I found his story and and the character interesting and just had to know more more. See his journey. I was surprised to hear he was dead [from staff at the comic shop when I went to get my 1st ever comic. B&R vol 1]

Killed off.

I still bought it never dreaming he would be brought back. I didn't know about comics and people coming back

My God haha!!
I was lucky enough to be introduced into this dark world during a period that nothing major (like this major) was happening.... I had so many comics to read back then and now waiting a whole month for small developments is such a torture... I imagine how it felt waiting a whole year to see Damian coming back to life...

[Yennefer]

I will slightly guide this conversation into a different direction... I am waiting for your opinions!
I have just finished Batman (2016) #54... The one with Dick?
Bruce was such a wonderful father to him... And I got really angry and sad that this didn't happen with Damian. (I get a bit disappointed that those pages have such an effect on my emotions lol)...
Dick didn't accept Bruce. He pushed him away. (He even got out of the manor at 16 and got the big bat to tell him that he will respect him), but Bruce fought to earn his acceptance and was very expressive with him when he was younger.

Damian from the other side breathes Bruce's air. He had fought so much for him to be accepted, but he always faced a cold, hard, neglectful and distant man.

I put the classic dilemma for this family: He seems to love Dick first and most of all and then all the others. Sometimes I just think he doesn't care about Damian at all.

And it bothers me so much, I find it completely unfair...

I know there's been a bad shift at their relationship since Rebirth... But looking at it generally, I conclude that Bruce's father side was extremely rarely expressed to Damian.

And I wonder: How is it possible to do it with his own kid? Sure he was a result of rape and this fact can affect the emotions of a parent and their relationship with the child(And I certainly do not judge that)... But: In the case of batman only how can he be so distant, when he already hurts for the children in pain? Why he ignores his child that has been in the most of it there is for a person at his age? I don't think the fact that he was a result of such an act is the main reason of Bruce's negligence to him.
They both were victims of Talia (in my opinion I much like the first version, where they just fall in love), thus Ra's. And I believe Damian was in the worst position of them all.


To say something here: I would not like to go to the "rape" situation, because every case is different and it is so tragic for a child to be born under these conditions for both parties (the victim and the child).
And generally I don't want us to express beliefs on it, because it is a sensitive matter to touch... Please, excuse me for taking such a liberty by asking that. I know it's a bit limiting.

I am waiting for your thoughts!
Thank you

[Jackalope89]

I will slightly guide this conversation into a different direction... I am waiting for your opinions!
I have just finished Batman (2016) #54... The one with Dick?
Bruce was such a wonderful father to him... And I got really angry and sad that this didn't happen with Damian. (I get a bit disappointed that those pages have such an effect on my emotions lol)...
Dick didn't accept Bruce. He pushed him away. (He even got out of the manor at 16 and got the big bat to tell him that he will respect him), but Bruce fought to earn his acceptance and was very expressive with him when he was younger.

Damian from the other side breathes Bruce's air. He had fought so much for him to be accepted, but he always faced a cold, hard, neglectful and distant man.

I put the classic dilemma for this family: He seems to love Dick first and most of all and then all the others. Sometimes I just think he doesn't care about Damian at all.

And it bothers me so much, I find it completely unfair...

I know there's been a bad shift at their relationship since Rebirth... But looking at it generally, I conclude that Bruce's father side was extremely rarely expressed to Damian.

And I wonder: How is it possible to do it with his own kid? Sure he was a result of rape and this fact can affect the emotions of a parent and their relationship with the child(And I certainly do not judge that)... But: In the case of batman only how can he be so distant, when he already hurts for the children in pain? Why he ignores his child that has been in the most of it there is for a person at his age? I don't think the fact that he was a result of such an act is the main reason of Bruce's negligence to him.
They both were victims of Talia (in my opinion I much like the first version, where they just fall in love), thus Ra's. And I believe Damian was in the worst position of them all.


To say something here: I would not like to go to the "rape" situation, because every case is different and it is so tragic for a child to be born under these conditions for both parties (the victim and the child).
And generally I don't want us to express beliefs on it, because it is a sensitive matter to touch... Please, excuse me for taking such a liberty by asking that. I know it's a bit limiting.

I am waiting for your thoughts!
Thank you

Bruce since 2016, really hasn't been much of a father (outside of the Super Sons books) to any of his kids, not just Damian.

[dietrich]

I will slightly guide this conversation into a different direction... I am waiting for your opinions!
I have just finished Batman (2016) #54... The one with Dick?
Bruce was such a wonderful father to him... And I got really angry and sad that this didn't happen with Damian. (I get a bit disappointed that those pages have such an effect on my emotions lol)...
Dick didn't accept Bruce. He pushed him away. (He even got out of the manor at 16 and got the big bat to tell him that he will respect him), but Bruce fought to earn his acceptance and was very expressive with him when he was younger.

Damian from the other side breathes Bruce's air. He had fought so much for him to be accepted, but he always faced a cold, hard, neglectful and distant man.

I put the classic dilemma for this family: He seems to love Dick first and most of all and then all the others. Sometimes I just think he doesn't care about Damian at all.

And it bothers me so much, I find it completely unfair...

I know there's been a bad shift at their relationship since Rebirth... But looking at it generally, I conclude that Bruce's father side was extremely rarely expressed to Damian.

And I wonder: How is it possible to do it with his own kid? Sure he was a result of rape and this fact can affect the emotions of a parent and their relationship with the child(And I certainly do not judge that)... But: In the case of batman only how can he be so distant, when he already hurts for the children in pain? Why he ignores his child that has been in the most of it there is for a person at his age? I don't think the fact that he was a result of such an act is the main reason of Bruce's negligence to him.
They both were victims of Talia (in my opinion I much like the first version, where they just fall in love), thus Ra's. And I believe Damian was in the worst position of them all.


To say something here: I would not like to go to the "rape" situation, because every case is different and it is so tragic for a child to be born under these conditions for both parties (the victim and the child).
And generally I don't want us to express beliefs on it, because it is a sensitive matter to touch... Please, excuse me for taking such a liberty by asking that. I know it's a bit limiting.

I am waiting for your thoughts!
Thank you

irst the Rape.

That was a retcon by Morrison of the Original story in which Bruce and Talia were engaged to be married.

Morrison said he made a mistake since it had been so long since he read Barr's 1987 Son of the Demon : the comic that had the relationship and Birth that Morrison based his Son of Batman and Damian's origin on.

He later apologised and retconed it. Tomasi also underlined the retcon in B&R where Bruce recalls the night of conception and said that he fell in love and then one night in the desert he followed his heart.

The animated verse kept the rape though.

I do believe that Bruce loves Damian but the thing is Batman is a different character today than he was back in the day when Dick was Robin.

Batman's world wasn't as dark as it became in the 70's when O'neil made him grittier to counter the Adam West effect. This only got worse as Burton's movie came out and then Miller cemented his Loner batman this as Batman with the popularity of his Dark Knight. This is still the most popular version. The one Batman fans are here for and the one most writers like.

Morrison himself said that aside from his death always being the plan he also said that he knew Scott liked his Batman alone so he didn't want to burden him with a kid.

So even before Scott Synder took over Morrison knew that Scott was going to have a problem with Damian.
Tomasi later let it slip at a con that Scott found the Robin concept to be irresponsible.

More and more writers and creatives now viewed Robin as problematic and were unwilling or begrudgingly using him. Damian if he wasn't Bruce's kid would not have been part of King's batman even though he was a tiny part.

DC also has an problem with stories featuring families as Tomasi revealed he was told that fans don't read Superhero comics to see families and fairs.
They want to see Super man punching the big bad.

He had to fight for every family focused issue of his Superman run.

Jason was the last Robin to be a constant next to Batman. After Jason's death DC introduced a new Robin because they had or saw a idea that could turn a problematic element into an IP.

Millers Robin concept from the DK series.
In the 90's DC set out to make Robin an independent hero. Less of the father son dynamic more a professional dynamic. Robin would be marketed as a solo hero with a life and world separate form Batman's. With his own villains, title and stories. They put a lot of effort and resources into making Tim a stand alone hero who was a partner not family. The father son dynamic was gone.

The irony is that the 90's also was when a lot of what is now classed as the Bat family were introduced but they weren't supposed to be Bat family. They were to be stand alone heroes it's just that with the comic market decline, the number of books gets slashed and those characters need panel space leading to my next point.


Batman wasn't as popular and he didn't have a million side characters who need the boost and visibility of his name and books to survive or push them.

Batman titles where be could have seen Bruce and Damian interact noteably Detective is the only place where these character can get the panel space they need.

Rebirth Tec was used to repaired and boost characters that were damaged by the past. Showcase characters who had fallen in popularity and gave a home to characters who had no team title they can be in while DC worked on a place for them.

King's Batman had a theme that the writer built his whole run on which didn't include the family. Now Tec and Batman are focused on giving the Batman fans what they have been missing for 4 years now.
What they have been very vocal about and what resulted in king's run losing readers when compared to Synder's Batman run.

Batman being Batman and solving crimes. The most popular and best selling version of Batman.


I agree that Dick without a shadow of doubt is Bruce's favourite. It's also understandable he was the first and they have a connection and history that Damian will never have with bruce.

Fans of that duo are lucky that Dick was introduced at a time when Batman was allowed to be a certain way. The Duo had the luxury of time and a world that was just the two and Alfred/that elderly woman.

The Batman world was focused on the dynamic duo writers had decades to tell stories that showed the two grow together. Organically.

It was just Bruce and Dick and occasionally Alfred [and i want to say Aunt Mildred but I can't recall her name]

We will never have that and none of the bat kids had that but it's not because bruce doesn't love them it's just that the world [both real and within the Batverse] has changed drastically.

Batman is a different character. His world, his character, his stories and what DC need him to be has changed.

However we are lucky that we got Tomasi's Batman and Robin which explored their father son dynamic rather than their Batman and Robin dynamic.

DC and creatives have made an effort to give us the duo as father and son in so many comics because they could not in the batman titles.

It's a shame that fans often call Bruce a bad father or complain about Damian not being in the bat titles when there are legitimate and understandable reasons for his absence.

They ignore everything that isn't in Batman, Tec and TT.
Damian and Bruce were in so many titles that DC fearing over exposure put him off limits.

We had lots of stories showing how Bruce's love for Damian. How he cares for him, worries about him and being a great dad There's so many examples in a multitude of DC titles:

From Ongoing comics like Superman to GA.
We had limited comics like Shadow/Batman to the TMNt.
We had Event comics from Metal to DCeased.
Anthologies from Nuclear winter to the Halloween Cursed Comics
Comics set in the future like Batman Beyond
Even Elseworlds and What If with circumstances and plots lines that test the limit of Bruce's love for Damian. Injustice 2 and Batman v Deathstroke and in these Bruce still shows that he loves Damian even at his worst. Even when he might not be his.

These are all from Rebirth. Don't include their regular comics and isn't a complete list of their Rebirth appearances/series or stories together.

I don't expect to ever get a series like Tomasi's Batman and Robin ever again. DC isn't interested in that side of Batman. I don't expect to get lots of stories which show Bruce being an attentive dad loving dedicating time to Damian because that results in backlash from fans of other bat kids who view it as favouritism or blood being prioritised over adopted never as he is a minor and needs a parental attention more so than a grown kid would.

Damian fans will never had what Dick Grayson fans have. Not the sheer amount of content or the type of simple stories about a father and Son doing random stuff/glimpses of them at home just being family dealing with family stuff like the old comics did.

Batman doesn't do slice of life anymore Heck until recently he barely did his Bruce Wayne life.

I am grateful for what we have which is a lot when you consider the factors above.

I'm grateful that some writers want to write Batman being a good dad. They pushed against DC and the Bat Office so we got plenty of quality content.

Other characters haven't been so lucky look at Superman and how quickly the Rebirth family wholesome goodness was undone.

[dietrich]

Bruce since 2016, really hasn't been much of a father (outside of the Super Sons books) to any of his kids, not just Damian.

Lol Bruce has been a questionable and often not good father for quite a while now.

Rebirth just went nuts on the douche baggery because he had a run that was themed to make him laser focused on one thing and while pushing the narrative that he only cares for his lover Selina.

[dietrich]

A character like Batman and good father is something that should have an asterisk. It's gotten harder to balance Batman and good father.

The bigger he and his world becomes the worse it seems to get. Not helped by writers of batfamily using him [usually in a negative way] to develop the family members.

Or using him to drive their plot and ramp up angst.

Similar to how Batman writers use his support as devices to further his narrative.

Writers just keep playing this card.

It bugs me is when fans call him neglectful because the family aren't in the Batman titles. Or need to have on panel evidence in the batman titles that minors like Damian. Tim and Cass live at the manor in stories that have nothing to do with them when we've already seen from other titles that they do live there.

that's not neglectful or an indicator that he doesn't care. It's absence due to plot and shouldn't reflect badly on Batman or lead to accusations of neglect.

Batman is a good father but he's also the worst.

[Rac7d*]

Bruce since 2016, really hasn't been much of a father (outside of the Super Sons books) to any of his kids, not just Damian.

Thier all adults
Tim being a partner or adopted retconned
He never took in cass
Can’t comment on dukes status with Alfred gone

[Jackalope89]

Thier all adults
Tim being a partner or adopted retconned
He never took in cass
Can’t comment on dukes status with Alfred gone

Tim's pre-Flashpoint history was brought back. And last I heard, was still 16.

[Aahz]

Tim's pre-Flashpoint history was brought back. And last I heard, was still 16.

Do we actually know what the status of his parents is?

The were alive in B&RE but pre flashpoint hi mother died before he became robin and his father during identity crisis.

[Ansa]

Do we actually know what the status of his parents is?

The were alive in B&RE but pre flashpoint hi mother died before he became robin and his father during identity crisis.

According to Batman Annual #4 they are dead. At least Jack is. Bruce hugged him in one panel on the anniversary of the death of Tim's father. But it's written by King and we all know he was kinda terrible at continuity. Just look at how many things he got wrong about the Flashpoint universe alone. And it came off like him throwing that hug in pretty randomly so people would get off his back for Bruce punching Tim in a previous Batman issue, but that's a different topic.

[Ansa]

A character like Batman and good father is something that should have an asterisk. It's gotten harder to balance Batman and good father.

The bigger he and his world becomes the worse it seems to get. Not helped by writers of batfamily using him [usually in a negative way] to develop the family members.

Or using him to drive their plot and ramp up angst.

Similar to how Batman writers use his support as devices to further his narrative.

Writers just keep playing this card.

It bugs me is when fans call him neglectful because the family aren't in the Batman titles. Or need to have on panel evidence in the batman titles that minors like Damian. Tim and Cass live at the manor in stories that have nothing to do with them when we've already seen from other titles that they do live there.

that's not neglectful or an indicator that he doesn't care. It's absence due to plot and shouldn't reflect badly on Batman or lead to accusations of neglect.

Batman is a good father but he's also the worst.

But as it is now we have textual evidence that he's not properly taking care of them, it's not just their pure absence in the stories. It's both things together that makes people call Bruce a neglectful parent.

[Ansa]

If it was just "DC wants to tell stories where Bruce punches bad guys" that would be fine. Nothing I'm interested in, but whatever.
The problem is in how many modern stories, both in the solo/team books and Batman's own books, Bruce doesn't punch the bad guy, he punches his family and friends.

[Digifiend]

Do we actually know what the status of his parents is?

The were alive in B&RE but pre flashpoint hi mother died before he became robin and his father during identity crisis.

That's a good point, because before Flashpoint, Tim had changed his name to Tim Wayne. That's not been restored, so while his origin is back, we can't be sure his entire history is. If he was adopted, then any usage of Drake should only be by people who don't know about it or a slip of the tongue.

Though his Drake codename in Young Justice would make a lot more sense if it was no longer his real name.

[Rac7d*]

Tim's pre-Flashpoint history was brought back. And last I heard, was still 16.

Again as Damian grows older and he stays still...... he might as well go back to limbo

[dietrich]

Again as Damian grows older and he stays still...... he might as well go back to limbo

He's ageing backwards