Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Ansa]

Yeah, if you look at how DC has let Bruce handle any serious disagreements with his family and friends over the last 10+ years you kinda learn to expect him to hit his 13 year old son instead of trying to be a good mentor and finding an actual solution to their problems.

I don't see how hitting Damian would convince him that Bruce's methods are the right way to go (especially since Bruce's methods are also questionable at best), Jason certainly wasn't convinced after his fight with Bruce, but DC always finds a way to spin things in Batman's favour.

A new identity isn't enough to keep Damian safe from the bat-office using him as cannon fodder. Just look at Nightwing. Damian has it even harder when it comes to independence because he is tied to Bruce by blood. That connection is hard to cut. I liked their relationship in Batman and Robin and want more stories with them. I hope for the sake of both their characters (and for the sake of my patience with DC comics) that they don't completely ruin Bruce as a father and Damian's arc to becoming a better person with the Annual, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic.

[Yennefer]

They will fail to do it right and you know it xD

[Ansa]

They will fail to do it right and you know it xD

It's kinda sad that I expect DC's flagship hero to suck in every way imaginable.

Oh wait, I forgot. I'm such an idiot. It's just going to be punch code so Damian knows what to do in Bruce's secret masterplan to stop the Joker in Joker War!

[dietrich]

Well it sounds like Today's comics are going to be very interesting reading can't wait to pick up my copies however....

Yeah the Nature or Nurture thing. This gets applied incorrectly. Damian's story is about Nurture.

[@Yennefer this isn't referring to you comment it's just that your comment reminded me of a misunderstanding that I always wanted to touch on re the Nature vs Nurture thing re Damian]


Bruce hints at it in Batman and Son when he mentions that

“He was raised by international terrorists in his grandfather’s League of Assassins. Brutalized, indoctrinated, then used as a weapon in his mother’s insane war with me.”

In Morrision B&R where Talia Accuses Grayson of Brainwashing Damian into the Bat Cult'

Bat or Demon

Damian isn't Evil by nature [whatever that means]
Damian's Nature is often used as code for going Al Ghul, Bad. As Tim puts it his 'Biology'. The bias and prejudice is unreal.


Always forgetting that Damian's 'Biology' is as much Al Ghul as Wayne.

Damian's personality. His 'nature' seems to be Bruce's .they are pretty much the same. Damian's mannerism's , quirks and personality are from Bruce the only thing he has been shown to share with Talia is at times not shown as Caucasian. He has the same capabilities as Bruce even outside of the uniform.


So lets that biased way of thinking just go die.


Damian fans and some often forget has already chosen to help the world before he officially became a Robin. The uniform didn't make him a hero or make him 'Not Evil'

He made this decision HIMSELF. Of his own free will independent of the two parental sides. Bat and Demon.

He decided to got to Gotham and help. Doing so without Robin and without the Bats. His nature is already set. Damian is a kid with a huge heart, lots of love which he struggles to show because h e resembles his father who is bad at expressing/communicating his emotions verbal so shows it in other ways just like Damian.

He is generous not just with gifts and donation but with how far he give of himself for others. Damian died to prevent others from dying. He was sent to Hell came back didn't stop fighting for others. Died again came back and here he is in todays TT in Hell and he hasn't stopped fight for the innocents and the little people.

Hell couldn't stop Damian Wayne from fighting for other people. That is Canon that is his truth and has been for a very long time now so anyone at this point who thinks or applies that nature crap ii isn't that they are mistaken.

They are stupid and can't read yet they are still buying comics. They just look at pictures at this point you should be walking away from that person.


Damian Wayne

It's in his name.

The character name wasn't chosen just because it was the name of one of Morrison's best friends. It's more than that.

Damian name translates in to two different thing

'To Tame'

'To Conquer'

which seems to be Talia’s reasoning for his name when she says in issue #7, “Damian will stride across the 21st century like a new Alexander”.


Talia’s plans for Damian don’t include his role as Robin as she sees it as a “phase”


Talia here has preconceived notions about who Damian is as a character. Like all of the fans who doubted that Damian would be a worthy successor to the Batman name.

“their plan is to tame and brainwash you until nothing is left but a spineless puppet. The world could be yours.” The tame or the conqueror – the two possibilities of Damian’s namesake – are the options that Talia presents to her son. Invokes the idea of destiny.

Damian ever defiant says, “I won’t be your weapon against them, mother.”

He even asked why Talia can't just love him as he is?

Damian says that Robin is the best thing that he has ever done. He gave up everything for the role and made himself an enemy of the House of Al Ghul resulting in Talia place a Billion dollar bounty on his head culminating in his death at the hands of the Heretic. A cloned better version of himself which Talia even showed him. [That's cold Talia]


To 'Tame or To 'Conquer'. That is the emotional conflict at the core of the character.

He choose to become a hero of his own free will.

He feels guilt over the letting people down and sadness when he fails - Sasha the girl he failed to save from Pyg, the sight of dead children killed by Zsasz makes him physical sick he vomits. The countless lives that perished when the JL failed to save a planet in No Justice.

Man I love Grant Morrison, even more than Scott Synder loves him

When you go back and look at his Batman work it truly is Masterful.

The way he managed to weave ALL 80 years of Batman into the Story, connected the future - Batman 700 where Damian saves baby Terry making him a canon DC character.
Set up the foundation for future writer to build on- Synder would later build Metal.
Celebrate Robin in a way that even DC has failed to with the Robin's 75 and 80th Anniversary with B&R Reborn -

Note to Tynion Dick Grayson doesn't represent Bruce's empathy and Damian doesn't represent his blood or legacy.

Dick Grayson represents Batman's legacy. That was the point of B&R Volume one.
Batman and Robin will never die. It carries on even after Bruce Wayne is dead and gone, the Legacy remains.

Damian represent Hope. The reason why he fights.

Morrison is a Master builder. I keep finding more layers every time I reread his run.

From the hint in Batman and son
the gradually development in B&R
the end in Batman Inc...
And set up for future writers - the possibilities of the two futures that were foreshadowed in Batman666 and Batman 700.

Impressive.

I've so much more I'd like to say but this got super long and off track in places so I'm stopping.

[Ansa]

Not sure if I will ever forgive Morrison for the **** he has done to Talia's character.

[Ansa]

I wish people would remember not just the part where Damian killed Nobody in the Born to Kill arc at the beginning of Tomasi's Batman and Robin run but also the rest of it. Bruce almost got carried away in his anger and came close to killing Nobody with acid before he looked at Damian and decided against it.
Bruce even says in the issue after the fight that the urge to kill is something he struggles with and that Damian didn't fall far from the Wayne tree (I mean, just look at Flashpoint Thomas and all the **** Bruce does on a daily basis)
Bruce also came close to gauging Ra's eyes out during the hunt for Damian's corpse and was only stopped by the arrival of Darseid's forces.
The idea that all of Damian's bad traits come from his mother's side is bullshit. I know fanon likes to idolize Bruce and put everything bad on Talia but that simply isn't true.

The last story in the 80th anniversary special has text boxes for both Damian and Bruce that give us their thoughts on the situation and their current relationship that are clearly meant to mirror each other and show their similarities. They also visit the same places, Bruce in the first page, Damian in the last. It's a very deliberate choice.

Tynion writes a Bruce that has realized that Batman can't keep going the same way he did in the past and decides to try new ways, which interestingly also includes a high security prison to stop criminals that Arkham can't keep inside, a thought Damian shares.

[dietrich]

Not sure if I will ever forgive Morrison for the **** he has done to Talia's character.

I'm not a fan of the Rape but that was retconed both in Batman and by Tomasi although some fans still run with it

Asdie from that I like Morrison's take on Talia. I agree with Morrison Bruce is no match for Talia. They are on different levels. Bruce in many ways a man child and Talia wants the world.

I'm not a fan of Talia being a puppet for Ra's or bait to lure the batman to his side. She lacked agency. Not to mention that once Talia and Ra's successfully cloned a version of Damian they no longer needed Batman. If Damian is indeed as Scott Synder put it 'The Batman perfected' A batman that lacks empathy. One who been genetically enhanced so it's far superior then why do they still need Bruce?

Talia as Leviathan defeated Batman. The LOA have the genetic material needed to build a superior Batman so they don't need him that angle is gone.

Talia been in love with Bruce is canon. She did love him but in Batman Inc she was over him and ready to burn that bridge.

In RSOB she was well done with him and I liked their dynamic there. Divorced and squabbling over custody
The character is better and stronger as a big bad. The love interest bit is played out and has less possibilities for growth.

Bruce is not going to ever have a single love or soul mate. He isn't about to find his one true love until the very last issue of a batman.

DC has very few big female bad guys and many many potential love interests for Bruce. So it's better for the character that she be more than Love interest number whatever out of many.

[Ansa]

I'm not a fan of the Rape but that was retconed both in Batman and by Tomasi although some fans still run with it

Asdie from that I like Morrison's take on Talia. I agree with Morrison Bruce is no match for Talia. They are on different levels. Bruce in many ways a man child and Talia wants the world.

I'm not a fan of Talia being a puppet for Ra's or bait to lure the batman to his side. She lacked agency. Not to mention that once Talia and Ra's successfully cloned a version of Damian they no longer needed Batman. If Damian is indeed as Scott Synder put it 'The Batman perfected' A batman that lacks empathy. One who been genetically enhanced so it's far superior then why do they still need Bruce?

Talia as Leviathan defeated Batman

Talia wanted to be free from the League and live her life, not be part of Ra's eugenics experiments.
She wasn't a power hungry maniac with no morals. She didn't want the world. She was a character motivated by love. Now she's just another mustache twirling villain, the complete opposite of the anti-heroine she was for decades.
Sorry, but this change is ****.

[Ansa]

And the only thing we've got since then is writers shitting on her by having random dudes sleep with her, using her as a racist stereotype or have her lose against people like Catwoman in a swordfight to prop Selina up as a love interest for Bruce.
**** this ****.

[dietrich]

Talia wanted to be free from the League and live her life, not be part of Ra's eugenics experiments.
She wasn't a power hungry maniac with no morals. She didn't want the world. She was a character motivated by love. Now she's just another mustache twirling villain, the complete opposite of the anti-heroine she was for decades.
Sorry, but this change is ****.

Talia also was also a willing part of the Ra's Plan.
Talia loved Bruce
Talia has aided Bruce in his fight
Talia bombed BludHaven
Talia was also a loving mother who loved and cared for her son. She fought Ra's to keep him safe.
Talia was a victim and an abuser.
Talia was abused, brain washed and weaponized by her father
Talia abused, brain washed and weaponized her son
Talia helped save the World

All the above is true and you are correct that she wanted to be free of the league and Ra's.

Writers have been inconsistent in how they use Talia however I prefer how Morrison used her. I think he by counting the ties he did the character a favour and increased the chances of her being used.

[Blue22]

I've always preferred a true neutral Talia as opposed to her being all the way good or all the way bad. So I'm not a huge fan of Morrison (and the new animated universe) having her go full villain. It makes even less sense in the animated movies when she was this caring, uber protective mother in one movie. And the next time we see her it's "Kill the bastard!"

Though that pales in comparison to how bad the Nolanverse Talia is.

[dietrich]

And the only thing we've got since then is writers shitting on her by having random dudes sleep with her, using her as a racist stereotype or have her lose against people like Catwoman in a swordfight to prop Selina up as a love interest for Bruce.
**** this ****.

Talia has been getting more use since Rebirth which is good however the racism and sexism isn't anything to do her being an outright bad guy or Morrison. It's to do with those writers are sexist and racist. Simple


+ King using Talia to prop Selina was shitty but WW was the real victim. Talia and Selina are at least peers but to use a feminist icon to prop a lower level character that you then later bring back her past as a sex worker is unreal.

[Godlike13]

I like Morrison’s Talia. She was a character corrupted and dissilusioned by rejection. I don’t even hate what Talia became after. There is good and bad, but she carries her own presence now. Shes not just the the daughter or the mother.

[Blue22]

I always love seeing some positive interaction between Damian and Tim

"You're only listening to the insults and not what I'm saying with them"
Well at least he knows he's a tsundere XD

[Yennefer]

And the only thing we've got since then is writers shitting on her by having random dudes sleep with her, using her as a racist stereotype or have her lose against people like Catwoman in a swordfight to prop Selina up as a love interest for Bruce.
**** this ****.

I don't make the mistake of supporting a specific ship very passionately... But... I low-key hate BatCat and I am (low-key) a brutalia shipper.
It's not random that 2 of 3 most popular love interests of Batman, are from the other side of the law. However, Batcat seems to be a cheap copy of what they want to illustrate: The cliché dilemma between passionate, unresisting love and justice. Talia is the high class criminal here. And the true anti-hero (the original talia) for obvious reasons. So that's why she makes it more powerful.
To answer to what you wrote... I laughed my ass off at how ridiculous they made it with this fight. But the "good" ones always win. Apparently CW is better at Swords especially............
I think they have tried this angsty romance for so long... So sticking the understanding and compatible( with Bruce) Selina Kyle to batman, would prepare the ground for something they want to go for this time: settling down, changing of the status quo, exploring the family side of him, changing Batman's core etc...
And other boring stuff that tick me off. But it is 80year story. Sometimes, good things have to end. (Unpopular opinion here)

Talia also was also a willing part of the Ra's Plan.
Talia loved Bruce
Talia has aided Bruce in his fight
Talia bombed BludHaven
Talia was also a loving mother who loved and cared for her son. She fought Ra's to keep him safe.
Talia was a victim and an abuser.
Talia was abused, brain washed and weaponized by her father
Talia abused, brain washed and weaponized her son
Talia helped save the World

All the above is true and you are correct that she wanted to be free of the league and Ra's.

Writers have been inconsistent in how they use Talia however I prefer how Morrison used her. I think he by counting the ties he did the character a favour and increased the chances of her being used.

I really love how perfectly you can analyse those characters... Until I learnt that Talia killed Damian, I didn't hate her... (Well now kinda) ... I always thought she was misunderstood and very similar to him. But basically they have done whatever there is in their hands to destroy her. And that takes talent.

What bothers me with talia is not her being evil. Is her being illustrated as maniac, insane, uncontrolled, lost. It is a degradation of her character.