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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I mean, I actually have doubts this is actually the plan, sadly. If it was the planned from the start, I don't think they would have named the first mini after Wolverine, or this one would have had 'Infinity Watch' somewhere in the title too. There's no consistency in that regard, which makes me think it's not something that was planned out. I think Kelly was just picking up on some recent events and is working with that, it may end here. I do think it could logically work, there is now a thing for Loki seeking out the wielders of the Infinity Stones more than just the one time, and I think it could be a lot of fun, if someone else wants to roll with it. I'm just not really holding out a ton of hope, because this feels a bit haphazard rather than something with a roadmap behind the scenes.

  2. #62
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    I feel like Duggan had a plan fornLoki, but...well, his Infinity War event just wasn't very good. He just completely lost control or something but it wasn't very good.

    Had it done better in sales or been better recieved, I think the Infinity Watch thing would have been bigger.

  3. #63
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think Duggan had a plan with Loki and the stones as well. In the Infinity Wars series there seemed to be an overall direction with Loki, but at the end it seemed to fizzle. And with Wolverine: Infinity Watch, again there was a plan regarding Loki, but it didn't seem to be very focused. I do wonder if editorial redirected things. I could understand with Infinity Wars, as they want something big, something that can bring in new readers and perhaps the Loki aspect seemed not what was wanted, and same for Infinity Watch as the spotlight was shifted more to Wolverine, since he's the primary focus on all the covers and while Loki is central to the entire story he's not seen or considered primary on the covers. And where Loki could have been the focus with Wolverine being the 2nd, it's clearly adjusted to be the opposite. Yet with Loki, it is a direct extension of the IW story. So I wonder if Duggan had a plan, yet either due to writing or editorial redirecting it never really materialized as strongly as it could have.
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah it may be that there WAS a plan, but the Infinity-whatever being not so well received, it was shelved. Though the Warp universe got some traction after that, so... and Loki has had great stories spin out of shitty events before... Like anything, it's all in execution, can get some good stuff out of a bad event. And I think you could do a slow build thing with this even this long after the event that sort of triggered it, where you don't have to reference the event it is building off of much at all. All you need to know is that the Infinity Stones now find hosts, and Loki is tracking them down, you don't need anything else.

  5. #65
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    That's very true. It doesn't need a big build up or a lot of back story. If you know the past with the stones, great, but yes it is easy to set this story in motion with little else. Loki knows the power of the stones and how they could cause trouble being bonded with people, and is tracking them down to save the universe. Great bases for a series and great way to have Loki interact with various others...heroes, villains and new characters. Okay, I'm in! Lol
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  6. #66
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    So I'm trying to figure out how Loki fits into Cates's book and I do have one theory that's a bit troubling-considering the rather aggressive Thor and Cates's own words about their relationship as kings, what if Loki gets killed by Thor?

    Now, we know that Loki is extremely hard to actually kill, but it can be done in theory. The thing is, he hasn't actually been killed since Siege, just two of the last three personalities have been overwritten.

    But with the Power Cosmic, Thor could do it...in theory. And while Loki would definitely come back from such a thing, well, it's a toss up on what sort of Loki we would get back.

  7. #67
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    Double Post

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    So I'm trying to figure out how Loki fits into Cates's book and I do have one theory that's a bit troubling-considering the rather aggressive Thor and Cates's own words about their relationship as kings, what if Loki gets killed by Thor?

    Now, we know that Loki is extremely hard to actually kill, but it can be done in theory. The thing is, he hasn't actually been killed since Siege, just two of the last three personalities have been overwritten.

    But with the Power Cosmic, Thor could do it...in theory. And while Loki would definitely come back from such a thing, well, it's a toss up on what sort of Loki we would get back.
    He has been killed, and I don't think his personality got overwritten, I think that aspect has been done away with, to be honest. I think he just resurrected himself both times, if the first time you are talking about was with King Loki, then he 'died' with a sort of plan, and while I think Ewing may have intended it as a sort of replacement at the time, Aaron backtracked on that part like immediately, and he was back to his old self, with all his memories etc intact. Then with Laufey, he died, but his soul ended up unable to move on, probably because no Valkyries, then magicked himself back together. Again, personality intact, because the soul that was there unable to move on obviously just re-entered his body. The flashbacks we got in Loki's solo to his childhood and to the old West, and also him wanting to reconnect with Verity, would not mean anything if he was rebooted, because those would have been aspects of the previous one. So I don't think the whole reincarnation thing has kicked in since JIM, and it may simply have been done away with. Just saying, I think we have to kind of let that go as something that definitely happens when he dies, stuff has altered that since it was said. We are talking about something that relies on a single line of dialogue in Young Avengers, it was framed as sort of his best guess as to what happens, and he may have been mistaken. And frankly, I prefer it this way, since I REALLY am not interested in him being rebooted constantly at the drop of a hat, erasing all that came before in terms of what makes him who he is. People are the sum of all the events in their lives, removing that aspect, making it so that past events did not contribute at all to his current self, kind of gives him less depth as a character.

    But I have doubts he will be killed, I think Aaron still has plans for him in Avengers, which offers him some protection, and Cates said in that podcast that he had lots of plans for Loki over several arcs. It may be that Loki dies at the end of those arcs, but I don't know exactly what it would accomplish in terms of Thor, it can't just be about him killing Loki and then.... That's it, the end. Thor has to have some kind of realization and character development from that, there has to be repercussions. Killing Loki is not a story, especially with Loki where he is at now, its a story beat, It has to lead to something more. And the obvious things, Thor realizing he was wrong, war with the frost giants, or something like that, seems kind of cheap at this point, like the tradeoff of losing Loki would not be balanced by what could be accomplished with it.

  9. #69
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    He has been killed, and I don't think his personality got overwritten, I think that aspect has been done away with, to be honest. I think he just resurrected himself both times, if the first time you are talking about was with King Loki, then he 'died' with a sort of plan, and while I think Ewing may have intended it as a sort of replacement at the time, Aaron backtracked on that part like immediately, and he was back to his old self, with all his memories etc intact. Then with Laufey, he died, but his soul ended up unable to move on, probably because no Valkyries, then magicked himself back together. Again, personality intact, because the soul that was there unable to move on obviously just re-entered his body. The flashbacks we got in Loki's solo to his childhood and to the old West, and also him wanting to reconnect with Verity, would not mean anything if he was rebooted, because those would have been aspects of the previous one. So I don't think the whole reincarnation thing has kicked in since JIM, and it may simply have been done away with. Just saying, I think we have to kind of let that go as something that definitely happens when he dies, stuff has altered that since it was said. We are talking about something that relies on a single line of dialogue in Young Avengers, it was framed as sort of his best guess as to what happens, and he may have been mistaken. And frankly, I prefer it this way, since I REALLY am not interested in him being rebooted constantly at the drop of a hat, erasing all that came before in terms of what makes him who he is. People are the sum of all the events in their lives, removing that aspect, making it so that past events did not contribute at all to his current self, kind of gives him less depth as a character.

    But I have doubts he will be killed, I think Aaron still has plans for him in Avengers, which offers him some protection, and Cates said in that podcast that he had lots of plans for Loki over several arcs. It may be that Loki dies at the end of those arcs, but I don't know exactly what it would accomplish in terms of Thor, it can't just be about him killing Loki and then.... That's it, the end. Thor has to have some kind of realization and character development from that, there has to be repercussions. Killing Loki is not a story, especially with Loki where he is at now, its a story beat, It has to lead to something more. And the obvious things, Thor realizing he was wrong, war with the frost giants, or something like that, seems kind of cheap at this point, like the tradeoff of losing Loki would not be balanced by what could be accomplished with it.
    I agree. I'm still very much of the mind that doubling up on the powering up of Thor is so that he can bring himself low. I don't think that will involve killing Loki as much as Loki finally flipping over into being unambiguously the hero.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, like i said earlier, I think Cates may be kinda tackling the idea of (modern) American Exceptionalism, except Asgard. I know it's not based on much right now, but it does seem to fit. Where it may be that Thor thinks that he/Asgard are just... like, always the good guys, just by virtue of being Thor/Asgard, anything they do is always the right move, in their eyes. Part of their identity is that they are the best realm, the ones who are always in the right. And while that may be founded on some factual basis in that they have done good things in the past, i mean, it doesn't mean they are incapable of doing wrong, and there bay be some revisionist history going on, too. He may have to confront the idea that it may not always be the case that everything he/Asgard does is the right thing. They kind of covered this in Thor: Ragnarok, sure, but it wasn't Thor at the center of it then, it was Odin's old misdeeds covered up under a pleasant narrative that Thor had believed. Here though, it may be Thor himself believing he is doing the right thing just by virtue of doing it in the name of Asgard, when in reality, maybe not so much. He may, in fact, be the bad guy, even if he doesn't have bad intentions. And it may be that Loki represents the other side of things, because he is king of Jotunheim, who in contrast with the Asgardians are painted as kinda always being the bad guys, what they do is always the wrong thing. While that reputation may be earned based on their past actions, I mean, Loki could honestly be trying to turn things around there, but Thor may not be willing to give them a real chance. I think Loki could serve that story better if he was alive, so there is a choice to be made between him and Thor, both in-universe and with readers. It may be that at the start the readers and a lot of the characters (thinking primarily the Midgard based ones, like the Avengers, so not technicallly a part of either side) are primed to go into it thinking that Thor is totally justified in his actions, and doing the right thing, because of everything i said before, but as the story progresses, it may be that we see that Loki is actually the one in the right.

    but, like i said, based on very little right now, it's just that the more i think on it, the more i see how well it fits.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Had a thought related to the above, which may support the idea that there will be a war or something between Asgard and Jotunheim and that the sides may not be clearly good and bad. Remember that in the new Strange Academy book, there are a couple Asgardian students, and a frost giant:

    https://terrigen-cdn-dev.marvel.com/...geacademy1.jpg

    If it is playing into Cates' plans at all, this kind of shows that it is possible for a) Midgard to look past the WotR and Laufey's actions in it to allow a frost giant to go to a school in Louisiana, despite the fact that it was Midgard, not Asgard, that was the target of the worst of Laufey's and by extension the frost giants actions during WotR. By doing this Midgard is in effect saying like, 'yeah that was the old king, we won't hold that against the new regime'. And also, that they were willing to deal with Loki to make that happen, a frost giant doesn't go to a Midgardian school, especially so soon after WotR, without striking a deal with their king. (Same with the Asgardians, but that would not be considered unusual at all.) b) It will likely show that Asgardians and frost giants can get along just fine. I bet you anything the Asgardians and the giant will end up like besties. And then if war breaks out, they could end up questioning their loyalties.

    Actually, I think, despite his shenanigans with the whole tricking Strange to be the Sorcerer Supreme thing, that the magical side of things in general would likely support Loki. He is the one who fixed magic after all, in a story that Cates wrote, no less. He's getting help from Wanda in Star. He's friends with Wiccan. He struck this deal with the Strange Academy.

  12. #72
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    That makes a lot of sense Raye. I can see that working out with Strange Academy and the view on how Asgardians and Frost Giants can work together and build relationships which would also shine positively on Loki. Let's hope this will come to fruition.

    Something I find interesting with Loki is how limited his exposure is in the comics, besides being in Thor (and yes now Star). But you see heroes and anti-heroes in various books and if they don't have their own solo, they are in a team book. Or villains (Doom, Magneto) in either solo books or team books or appearing all over in various ways. But Loki, gets limited exposure. I often wonder is it that certain writers aren't sure how to use him in their story since he isn't black or white/hero or villain? He is more grey and can go in different ways which makes him very fascinating and intriguing but may not lend himself to easily written. Thompson has started off well with him in Star and we'll have to see how much more he appears. Just thoughts lately.
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I like to think part of the reason for this this frost giant character going to the school is that she is acting as a sort of ambassador, to show they're not all bad, and that may be why Loki himself isn't just teaching her. So I would hope Loki chose her carefully as one that would play nice with the other students. (assuming more than just the one giant wanted to learn magic)

    Well, it wasn't that long ago that his solo was cancelled, it may be he has something just around the corner, hard to say. But yeah, he seems to be in guest spot mode at the moment, sadly, even if his role in Thor will likely be fairly large. But with all the teases going back quite a ways for Loki joining the Avengers, I think the Avengers is probably still in his future, it's just taking longer than i expected to get there. But Aaron teased it right from his first arc on Avengers, then Loki's solo teased it again, so I think it's still coming, just.... slowly. I kind of hope that it coincides with a second (or even third) Avengers team, though. I like it when the Avengers has 2 or more teams so you can kind of have smaller squads (which means more in depth character stuff) and a more specific focus in terms of the problems they go after and/or theme. But it would have to feature some bigger tier characters, or it would end up going the way of West Coast Avengers and be cancelled after not very long. maybe have a couple members of the current squad head up their own teams? After the teases in his solo, I'd like Loki to be on Iron Man's team, I think that could be fun. Maybe they deal with more 'thinky' problems while the other team is more action.

  14. #74
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    Well, even if things are relatively calm regarding his appearances for the next year, when his Disney+ series debuts we can certainly expect a variety Loki series, continuing, mini and one-shots to hype him up. Look at Black Widow and her upcoming comic offerings connecting to her upcoming film.

    As for the Avengers, I don't know if he'll every truly be a member of the main team, but I could see a side Avengers team. I do agree, that the team which ever one it would be would have to have some top tier characters to give it some validity of its need, and definitely some focused stories that only this team would be able to handle.
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  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    yeah, when his Disney+ series hits, i am sure there will be something for him, i mean they have a Morbius solo series right now, and while I know Rosebunse likes him a lot, let's face it, he would not have that if not for the upcoming movie. But the Disney+ series is still like, a little over a year off? I don't think they've given a specific date beyond 'spring' though as with Black Widow and Morbius, if he has something in the comics to coincide, it will likely start a bit earlier.

    I just think it would be a big letdown if the teases in Aaron's Avengers came to nothing because Cates changed plans on him or something, he's been building towards Loki joining from the first issue, and he's brought that back up again since then. Not OFTEN, mind you, but it's been brought back up, including future-Wolverine telling him he had more Assembling to do, so it sounds as though Loki needs to gather more Avengers, which may point to a second team. I haven't been a big fan of Aaron's Avengers, but from a character point of view, I think it would be a big step in Loki's development like, they're saying 'we're not turning him back, he's a hero now' and a secondary team could do that as well, as long as it was on the same sort of level as the original team, not like West Coast where i mean it had Avengers on the cover but in-universe it was like Cap didn't like them using the name and they weren't really considered official. (tho i liked the book)

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