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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Okay, I had another thought about the whole Avengers thing today. Yeah, this is all just a hypothetical, and it may not happen, but I think it fits together.

    So in Aaron's Avengers, when they bring in the Russian team, they have Perun and Chernobog with them, it's obviously meant to parallel Thor and Loki. When he sees this, Tony says you 'never go double god' and he's proven right when Perun and Chernobog end up fighting each other rather than anyone else, and it screws everything up, and he's like 'see?!' So. here's my thought about how that could play out as foreshadowing, even though it's not going to be Aaron doing half of it, admittedly this likely would have made more sense if he was still writing Thor, but Cates still may be working towards Aaron's plans in this regard.

    It's looking like Thor and Loki may fight (unfortunately ) but this time Thor may be the aggressor. But regardless of who starts it, what if they end up on Earth, and the Avengers show up to try and resolve this situation, and they end up taking sides. While I am not too interested in another Civil War, i think you could spin this as more like them trying to prevent one from happening, by keeping Thor and Loki separated, and with Tony arguing against going 'double god' by splitting into two teams. Like, the team ends up split, but other than Thor and Loki themselves, everyone is actually in agreement that it's for the best, even if their sympathies may lay more with one or the other, it could be the catalyst for a second team. I could see Tony siding with Loki after events in Loki's solo, for instance, or at least feel responsible for him because it was him that made the deal with Loki, so Tony, Loki and some others do one team, while Cap and whoever take Thor on the other side, expand both with a couple new members, and done. Maybe T'challa acts as a neutral go between between everyone. This also depends on Thor being back with the Avengers, but based on some of Cates' comments (he said some of his time with the Avengers may be shown in his Thor run) and some preview art for some upcoming stuff does seem to suggest he will be, despite the 'retirement' not Tony gave him, i guess that was only temporary.

    The catch here though is that prior to this, or maybe during the confrontation, Loki would have to do something to demonstrate that he is Avengers material. Tony already laid out his requirements: pick up Mjolnir. While I think he said it while expecting it would never happen, a deal is a deal. I don't think Loki could right this instant, he's come a long way but... he's still a ways off. Though the 'worthyness' requirements Aaron laid out at the end of WotR, do seem to fit Loki rather well, actually. But I could maybe see something happening during the fight, especially if it IS Thor that is attacking him rather than the other way around.
    I think with the recent tease about the hammer getting heavier for Thor, Loki picking up Mjolnir (again, technically) may finally happen. What i am having trouble deciding is, if the Loki hero moment, whether it is Mjolnir or something else, happens before Thor and Loki end up fighting on earth, or like AS it's happening. like, would Thor be mad that Loki 'stole' Mjolnir and that is WHY he is attacking him, or is he attacking him for another reason, and during the fight something happens that causes the Avengers to choose sides? Either way though, I think now that Thor would be pissed off. I didn't before, during Loki's solo, I was kinda thinking he'd maybe be ok with it. But now? not so much. I think, with his recent attitude shift, he would see it in the worst light. It would be like being shown to be the bad guy in this situation, and no one likes that, and he also still places a great deal of his self worth in being able to lift that hammer, so losing that, again, so soon after being unworthy recently, would sting. But also from a political standpoint, it's not a good look for the king to lose the symbol of his power to a rival king. It could make Thor look weak, or at least he'd think it made him look weak, given how he was portrayed in the first issue of Cates run, and he may feel the need to re-assert his power. I think this is a large part of what prompted Odin's aggressive response to Jane. Which is why I am having a hard time deciding if it would happen before or after the Avengers moment. Before would give Thor more justification (in his eyes, anyway) to attack Loki and Jotunheim, and Loki could still be all like 'here i am with the hammer, deal's a deal' to Tony and then Tony is like 'can't go double god' so split the team to keep the peace. But during may be more dramatic, and give the Avengers more reason to give Loki a chance. Either way though, I am kinda picturing Thor hucking it at Loki again, but this time Loki picks it up after maybe being knocked to the ground by it. very dramatic. But I still feel he would need to do something before that to demonstrate why he can lift it.

    Either way though, I hope eventually they can reconcile.

  2. #77
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    I think Thor will give up Mjolnir because he "doesn't need it" because of the power cosmic and Odinforce. I think it will get heavier and heavier as time goes on and he'll go deeper and deeper into denial, up until he decides that if it doesn't want him, he doesn't need it. We can see some of that attitude already.

    I think he'll leave it behind...and I think Loki will pick it up, if only to not leave it out where someone can just find it.

    Then, in true big brother fashion, Thor will decide Loki "stole" his discarded hammer.

    I still think that in the long run, Thor will be brought REAL low, and it will be unambiguously his own fault.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Maybe, but I am kinda leaning towards something more dramatic. If he puts it down, presumably somewhere in Asgard, then how does Loki get to it? how does he know it's there, even if it isn't in Asgard? Thor apparently doesn't want to talk to him, so not like he's going to tell Loki where it is.... and why would he think he even COULD? I mean i guess Mjolnir called out to Jane, but... seems to me it kind of should be a spur of the moment, unexpected thing. Also i was hoping for Loki to get it without making Thor unworthy again, though admittedly the heaviness comment does seem to indicate that may not be the case. It's just like, why do the same thing again so soon? He like JUST became worthy again. I was also not really thinking Loki would keep the hammer for long, just long enough that he could show people that he had changed.

    so... yeah, Thor may be brought low, but there has to be something to bring him back up again. Especially since he was already brought low in Aaron's run. Again, it just comes back to why do it all again so soon? I don't think being worthy should be something that is just inherent to Thor, but at the same time there are limits to how often i want to see him become unworthy, less than a year after he regained his worthiness from the last time is too short a time.

    Also, as much as it pains me to say this, because i do personally want them to be on good terms, I think it may be best to keep them separated, if this is going to be Thor's attitude. Also, as discussed here before, i think Thor fans and Loki fans want drastically different things for both characters, so maybe it is best to just separate them so they can be their own thing without pissing off the fans of the other character... seems like what we want would piss off Thor fans and vice versa, but if they are not together, then that is lessened.

    And remember that band Disciples of Verity that besides having the perfect name also did that insanely well fitting song 'worthy'? well, they did it again:



    So will have to fit that in to the playlist sometime. Sadly they don't seem to be getting a ton of views on youtube, so hopefully their album does well, they're a pretty good band, old school, (as expected, many of the members are veterans of other bands, going back like 30 years, which is presumably how they are able to get these guest artists to contribute) but good.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-19-2020 at 09:49 PM.

  4. #79
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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    Actor twhiddleston has shared this video from his stuntwork preparation for the #Loki @disneyplus
    series with the caption: "Prep is going really well."

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B71b-krgpy7/

  5. #80
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    Actor twhiddleston has shared this video from his stuntwork preparation for the #Loki @disneyplus
    series with the caption: "Prep is going really well."

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B71b-krgpy7/
    Whoo Hoo...production is starting! Glad to know its moving forward pretty smoothly.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Nice! and it may just be prep, and he is obviously not in costume, but his hair is dyed black, so if filming isn't started just yet it must be just around the corner, no need to dye it yet if nothing is being put to film.

    So Loki was not in the solicits, nor is he in the Thor preview (the "Justice League" is, though ) we'll have to see if he is in the later part of the issue, i guess, though what was said earlier about Thor telling him go go away may have been a signal that he will not feature in the rest of the arc may be true. But i guess we still probably have Star if that's the case, even if he's not mentioned directly. Though I do want to see more of what Cates intends for Loki, if anything from the solo carries over etc. so guess we'll see on Wednesday.

    The solicit for Valkyrie had my heart skip for just a beat though, as it mentioned Thor's brother invading Asgard.... but it was Tyr. I had figured that Tyr was out of the running for 'replacement Loki' on account of being dead, and then they sent him to Valhalla which seemed to seal the deal even further, but nope, he's back and invading Asgard in some kind of power grab, betraying his brother in the process, so maybe Tyr IS the replacement Loki, since Balder took Karnilla's place. Though we'll have to see what they do about him being dead and all, and if this is a one-off thing.

    And I thought of a way of maybe reconciling the depictions of Thor in Loki's series and Cates' take. It's probably not something that was intended, more likely Cates just had a different take on things that took priority, and Loki was (in part) cancelled because of the conflict, but it helps ease things over in my head. What if it's like, Thor had been kind of overwhelmed, bored, and miserable in his new role from the beginning, but sort of took comfort in the fact that Loki was in the same boat? (if not have it worse cus Jotunheim) And in Loki's book he was wanting Loki to spend less time on Midgard etc and take his duties more seriously because that's what he felt HE needed to do, and if he had to, so should Loki. But there he was all friendly like because he thought he could get Loki to go along with it just by telling him he needed to accept his responsibilities, and maybe it was the same sort of thing he was telling himself. But then Loki was like 'fuck that' and tried to find a way to have his cake and eat it too, and have adventures on Earth anyway. While Thor withdrew to Asgard, devoting all his time to Asgard things because he felt obligated, and Thor resents that Loki is doing what he wants to be doing himself. Sure, Loki probably is neglecting his duties some, and that may bite him in the ass. But clearly Thor wishes he could do that too, he probably went with Galactus in part because it let him go on an adventure again, rather than do king things in Asgard. So Loki shows up, away from the realm he's supposed to be governing, to talk with Thor, and no matter what Loki said, to Thor it might come across as Loki flaunting that he wasn't chained to his throne as Thor maybe feels is the case with himself. Mad not so much that he was in Asgard, as he was that Loki wasn't in Jotunheim where he was supposed to be. And beyond that, maybe word got around about Loki's dealings with Star, and maybe he was doing some other things, off panel, as well. Thor's not mad that Loki's neglecting his duties so much as he resents how Loki seems to have more freedom and fun than he does and is doing the things he wants to be doing. If he's miserable being king, so should Loki. Though, it is appearing as though Thor's 'retirement' from the Avengers will not last, it seems he will be returning to dividing his time between Asgard and Midgard, but as of the moment where Thor blew up at Loki, he was apparently retired from Avengering, more or less, so... We'll have to see if anything changes once Thor does spend some more time on Midgard again, and is presumably a bit less miserable.

  7. #82
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    I can see that. Even if Loki is neglecting his duties, Jotenheim isn't Asgard. Loki doesn't really need to be super involved with the little day-to-day stuff. And also, an occupied and entertained Loki is a happy Loki, so him going between realms all the time is probably safer for everyone.

    But I also think that Cates wanted his Thor and that's what we got. One of his strengths as a writer is that he isn't afraid to just write what he wants, but it's also gotten him in major trouble a few times. We will see if he can maintain this. Aaron was just barely able to really use his depressed and moody Thor and a lot pf his success om the book came down to the fact that he was able to spread that mood across multiple characters.

  8. #83
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    It's a cool theory. I like it better than my own assumptions.
    (I thought, if Loki's book will be taken into account at all, there could be two possible explanations: either some bad shit went between Thor and Loki off-panel between Loki's and Thor's book, or, less likely, Thor assimilated a designated allfatherish attitude that perhaps comes with the title).
    But we are probably thinking about this much much more than any writer ever did.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I mean like i said, I don't think this was planned out, but I like for things to kind of make sense, for one thing to flow into another rather than this abrupt shift, so this at least kind of puts things in order in my own mind, even if it's just headcanon. I get that Cates (and other writers on other books for that matter) want to do their own thing, but I think that the fans become invested in what is supposed to be an ongoing story should also be taken into account. I get that each writer has their own things they want to do, but from a fan perspective, it's one big story, and that there is connective tissue going back years is part of the appeal. I don't mean that the characters should stay frozen in place as they were conceived, but as with anyone, past events inform the present and future. Also, i mean we've constantly been getting situations recently where writers finish up their run while setting up a status quo for the characters, and then the next person comes along and throws out/ignores large chunks of it, or even starts over from scratch, and it's like, why bother setting up a status quo at the end of a run at all, if that's constantly going to happen? Cates did keep Thor and Loki being kings, as well as some other changes that happened during Aaron's run, so he's better about that than some, but, just saying, I think he could have kept a bit more while still doing his own story. Also, to be fair, I am, in hindsight, glad the God of Stories thing did not stick, or at least aspects of it. the more i think on it, I really didn't like the idea of just starting over again, with all his memories gone etc. especially after we had kind of gone through that already with Kid Loki, and the personality we got there felt... shallow. I like that continuing evolution aspect of the books/characters, where one thing builds on the next and things evolve over time, and erasing his memory and giving him a new personality eliminates that, and I think it kind of would have made for a less interesting character if nothing from his past counted any more. so, you know, sometimes i am ok with it i guess... But in that case it was because keeping the status quo at the end of AoA would have meant a more abrupt shift than walking that back. but I am rambling now.

    I don't think Loki in his present characterization would necessarily default to doing something bad if he got bored, I mean, he IS bored, but seems to just kinda wanting to do superhero stuff and join the Avengers, so I don't think him being bored is necessarily a bad thing at the present time. And while i get that Jotunheim doesn't have as many things to attend to as Asgard would, though I don't think it will happen any more because the book was cancelled, it was kind of hinted at that there would be a rebellion in Jotunheim due to Loki neglecting things, where he presumably either was overthrown, or he learned he had to devote more to it. So I do still think him neglecting his duties could be a problem, even if it may not have as big an impact as Thor neglecting his. I think for both of them, they just need to find the right balance, you can't devote your entire life to one thing, you do have to make time for yourself, but you also can't neglect important things in the interest of being happy.

  10. #85
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    The Giant rebellion could still happen. In fact, I'm betting money on it since it would be a fun showcase for herald!Thor's new powers and potentially problematic mindset. It would also probably lead to some fun conflict between Loki and Thor, so fun.

    Plus, Thor has to do something after this Black Winter arc. I do wonder, though, just how segregated this Thor book will be from other books. Will Thor be like this in his other appearances?

  11. #86
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    If Avengers and Valkyre covers are to be believed, yes.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I mean, i hope they don't do that, honestly. I'd rather they drop that plotline than to have Thor solve what should be Loki's problem. That would just make Loki look ineffectual, like he can't handle his own problems and needs Thor to come to his rescue. If the giants revolt I think it should be Loki to deal with it, it's his responsibility. And I don't think Thor is in the mood to help Loki right now, anyway, he'd probably just be like 'good, let them revolt' (even tho whoever took power would probably be more likely to attack Asgard than Loki would be right now) And also seems kinda.... small for Thor right now, and I doubt he will be keeping his herald powers for long anyway. He's on future covers in sort of this costume, he's back to his old helmet and shorter hair and minus glowy eyes, so... I think the powers may be for just this arc, tho the costume and his restored arm and eye may remain.

    Loki was not in Thor today, btw. But there was a small tease about why the hammer is growing heavier, among all the Galactus stuff, which does line up with some of my previous speculation for Loki. It said it had been growing heavier by the day since he took the throne, so I think it's looking more and more likely that he's in the wrong role to hold it. The hammer is tied to the role, not the person, it's just that Thor's had it for a very long time at this point, aside from a few blips along the way, so it is associated with him right now. He can not hold the throne AND the hammer at the same time, it's one or the other, i bet. Which does make sense given the very long history Aaron tacked on to it, Odin had it a million years ago, and it also was very heavy for him and rebelling against him, as he was stepping into the All-Father role after Bor, it was behaving similarly then to how it is behaving here. So it may not be that Thor is unworthy, exactly, but more that the hammer wants to be with the holder of the role it represents, and if he is the All-Father, that's not Thor any longer, regardless of his qualities as a person. (tho, Thor is also being kind of a dick, but I don't think that's the reason) Now, Beta Ray Bill is there, and he can probably lift it, cus, i mean, we already know he has previously, but I think for the purposes of this story, they need someone who is more directly linked to Asgard and/or Midgard, Beta Ray bill will not be able to fill the role on a permanent basis unless he permanently relocates to Asgard/Midgard, even tho he possesses the qualities the hammer looks for. Also it is the wrong point in the story for that to happen, I think, this is feeling like setup for the next arc or two, though he may end up being a sort of transitional step, maybe. But I think ultimately, it will have to go to someone who is also between roles right now.... and like.... scroll up to the top of the page. (Except, modify Mjolnir being a symbol of Asgard's throne, there. What I meant was more that it was a symbol of Thor's power, personally. And he's the king, so... If he loses it to Loki, regardless of what it actually represents, people, including Thor himself, if the whole putting it on the throne every night thing is anything to go by, will interpret that as a foreign king stealing the symbol of Asgard's power.) But it may also be that in the end, Thor chooses to give up being All-Father in order to have the hammer and his old role back. In fact I am betting that probably will happen eventually, even if it's not Cates that does it. though that kind of sends a shitty message of staying stuck in the past and never moving forward in your life is the way to go. But, i mean, really look at things, it lines up to how it all played out with Thor, now that Loki's made it a goal for himself to lift that hammer, despite not yet being worthy. they even gave Loki Jarnbjorn, the weapon Thor used while striving to become worthy. Thor himself had to try for years, decades, before it finally let him lift it, the same may happen here. (well, maybe not the 'years/decades' part, which won't work so well when not dealing with flashbacks where you can skip over huge chunks of time) And he wants to lift it because that will let him on the Avengers, which means he actually is setting out to fill Thor's role, even if it's not phrased that way, and he may not even be consciously aware that's what he's doing, and his motivations are still kinda messed up. But Thor's motivations were messed up way back when, too. In a different way (glory hound vs fending off boredom) but still, they want the hammer, but for the wrong reasons, and in Thor's case he did eventually figure out the right reasons, maybe Loki will too. Of course, a lot of this does rely on the events of Loki's solo being taken into consideration by Cates, but... I'm going with him counting it, at least the broad strokes, despite the change in Thor's personality.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-29-2020 at 04:35 AM.

  13. #88
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    I forgot, how did Mjolnir come to be in Marvel universe? I know the myths, and I remember reading a Marvel comic that went after the myth, with Loki's involvement and all, but lately I see Odin having it way back in his youth, so..which one is canon?

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I'd have to look up the specific issue, but in Thor, there was the Mother Storm way back when, and Odin fought and weakened it and trapped it in Uru, which was then made into Mjolnir. But he was still unable to control it, the storm fought him, so he put the worthyness enchantment on the hammer. At the time, i took this to be much later than it would have to be for him to have it a million years ago, and it also implied there that Odin was never able to wield it, but no specific date was given, it was just an assumption on my part about the date, and Aaron may have changed his mind about Odin carrying it when he did the Avengers stuff, even tho it was him that wrote both....

  15. #90
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    Didn't he have it when he was with prehistoric Avengers? Or did I mess it all up in my head as usual? I didn't really follow that story

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