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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Apparently I checked his twitter a day too too soon:

    https://twitter.com/Doncates/status/1239482749486075905

    No answers though. But from the replies in so far, it seems most people are favoring a change in the hammer rather than Loki, I hope that Loki can prove that it's him that changed more than the enchantment.

    Also, not Loki, but still, best teamup ever: https://twitter.com/Doncates/status/1239478052373086208 Needs more Bats tho.

  2. #182
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Ok, so, Tyr being Loki's nemesis just went from 'pretty likely' to 'almost completely certain' because first of all, Tyr's plans and motivations were explained in today's issue of Valkyrie. It basically boils down to him being pissed off at his punishment for betraying his brothers in Hel, and the fact that he is the eldest son of Odin, yet Thor sits on the throne. (in fact, technically he is the only brother right now without a throne, though this was not mentioned in the issue) So basically he's motivated by jealousy and resentment, and is looking to unleash a terrible evil to sieze power that he sees as rightly his. Which does sound very Loki like motivations. And I guess I have to take back a bit of what I said before, because he escaped Valhalla and was able to spoilers:
    mind control Thor, (he is still under his control at the end of the issue, following Tyr around like a dog.) and steal Jane's weapon, which at that moment was transformed into a type of wood he needed to open the door which was keeping the ancient evil at bay... It's complicated
    end of spoilers by using trickery. But I still think he will probably use his own methods in the future, but him using these trickery methods here in this appearance really makes it clear that he is behaving in a very old school villainous Loki sort of way, it would have been obvious even if... spoilers:
    Loki didn't show up to stop him. In fact, with both Thor and Jane out of commission, Loki may be the only one left who CAN. Basically, Tyr appears in Jotunheim because that is where the door is, and Drrf sees them. Drrf leads Loki to where he saw Tyr appear with Thor, Loki goes to them and tries to talk to them, asks why he would even want to unleash what is behind that door, etc. But Tyr is not having any of it, does a bit of villainous monologuing giving some insight into his plan, and sics Thor on Loki, but Loki was using an illusion to talk to them, so he is fine, and he's all like 'what are you up to Tyr?' to himself back at his palace at the end of the issue.
    end of spoilers

    One little thing I liked was just Loki asking why Tyr would want to do this. Turns out that Loki has the gates to an unspeakably evil and extremely powerful force in the realm he now is in charge of, and he revealed here that he knew what it was, though not how to get in, (but if Tyr could figure it out, Loki could have) but instead he says he doesn't see why anyone would want to. This shit is too evil for Loki, but Tyr is all in, it helps illustrate how their positions have flipped.

  3. #183
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    Oh my. Can't wait ro read it, I could use some distraction now.

  4. #184
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    Is this all in Valkyrie #9?

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yes, this was all in Valkyrie today. (but the previous issue is the beginning of the arc and sets things up)

    I am a bit surprised this is all going down in Valkyrie rather than Thor, since it seems to be a rather important thing if it is the case that the new dynamic between Loki and Tyr is established here, but... On the other hand, it is also Valkyrie where Heimdall died, and Sif being the new guardian of the Bifrost has been a pretty important piece of Cates' run, so may not be that unusual.

  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    btw. this is a thought I had a while back, but I just realized, having a quick look through the last few pages of the thread, that I forgot to share it here. But it may be an indication that Loki has kinda technically been in Thor's role since the end of WotR, even if it hasn't been something that anyone, including Loki himself, has realized yet. I mean, like i said previously, I don't think Loki was worthy until after he cut himself free of Laufey, or maybe like, sometime in the middle of his ordeal in there. We know for sure he wasn't worthy at the beginning of Aaron's run, in any case, because he got pinned by Mjolnir in Alfheim, so it HAD to have happened after that at the very earliest, but nothing in his actions before Laufey eating him would have pushed him over the edge, i don't think, except maybe fixing magic. maybe. But he probably could have technically been worthy all this time since WotR ended, and just not known it because he had no opportunity until now to lift the hammer, cus Thor kept it close. And a sign that may have been the case, is the fact that when Thor got Mjolnir back, the inscription changed again, from 'she' to 'they' after changing in the first place from 'he' to 'she' when Jane picked it up. Now, this could simply be to address the male default assumption of the original inscription, which was just kind of a product of the times in which it was written, but if that was the only reason, why not just change to 'they' when Jane picked it up? Why not change back to he now, if Thor is a guy and the one who is holding it? Why only now, when the WotR was drawing to a close? Could it be because the person who was next in line to fill the role could probably technically most accurately be described as 'they' despite most often going as 'he'? While Thor wasn't technically made All-Father by Odin just yet when Mjolnir was reforged, he HAD been pinned to the World Tree and lost his eye, so the writing was on the wall that he was taking Odin's place, and thus had kinda already left his old position, even if he had become worthy of Mjolnir once again. So his old position was already vacant when he lifted the hammer after being reforged, since the new role holder was.... indisposed at that time. Lifting Mjolnir may be a symbol of the role, but it is not the sole thing that determines who is the role-holder, Thor doesn't give up his role if like, Cap or Beta Ray Bill picks up the hammer for a while, they just prove that they possess the right qualities that the hammer is looking for. The role is bigger than just the hammer, it's about the place the character fills in the story of Asgard since, as Loki has said before, the gods are the stuff of stories. And I think you can technically be in the role before you are worthy. Thor is now the non-role person lifting the hammer, like Bill or Cap, even if he doesn't want to admit it, and doesn't want to give up his old role, but it's already happened. And Mjolnir seems to be trying to force the issue in the face of his stubbornness by getting heavier, so it can go to the person it knows is supposed to have it.

    TLDR: Loki has been in the role ever since Thor gave it up when he got pinned to the World Tree, even if he hasn't been worthy until just now, and the inscription changed to match Loki's ambiguous gender. And yeah, the worthiness clause may have been altered a bit because it is a new... what, story cycle? I dunno what to call it, but in any case, Loki's rules may be slightly different from Thor's, but I don't think it's going to be by too much, if the general overall shape of the story is to remain the same.
    Last edited by Raye; 03-18-2020 at 09:42 PM.

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Had a look through the solicits: https://www.newsarama.com/49494-marv...citations.html

    Did not see Loki mentioned anywhere, but I presume he will probably be in Valkyrie still, and I am betting he will be appearing in the Infinity Stone thing (he may be the 'classified' in the Avengers one) and will more than likely be in the Thor story, given what happened in the latest issue. As I kinda said in the post above, I think that Thor is clinging to Mjolnir, but he has to let it go. That's not his job anymore. He has to either give the All-Father position to someone else so he can take back his old role, or he has to give the hammer to the person who, as I said above, is kinda actually already in his old role, but is lacking the signature weapon because Thor is being stubborn.

    but look what came!


    cute! (excuse my filthy mouse pad)

    And he's found a place on my purse....


    but the pin is quite large so i actually had to remove two to make room, have to find new spots for the AT-AT and Red Rocket pin.

    Can get one here is you want: https://www.etsy.com/listing/6925151...-pins-series-2

  8. #188
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    What if this isn't Thor stopping Mjolnir? I always thought that Loki's reaction there was a little bit strange, since it's surprise, not relief, so what if it was Loki stopping it and then Thor bluffing?

  9. #189
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah like, I remember when the page was posted without dialogue, we had that debate, was it Thor or Loki that stopped it? But when the issue came out, it seemed to say Thor. But.... did it...? recent developments shed some doubt there. As I said above, I think Loki's been worthy since Laufey. That was his 'in a cave with a box of scraps'. He had an epiphany in there that pushed him over the line. but it's just that most people don't seem to realize it. And when Thor #1 came out, no one knew Loki was worthy, his diehard fans knew he was on the path, or speculated he might be, and there were hints that he would be in the future, but he hadn't actually lifted the hammer, so we didn't actually know he was, it was still a future thing or speculation. But now we DO know he is worthy, at least by the hammer's reckoning. So it stands to reason he was probably already worthy in that page above, he just didn't know it, and neither did readers at the time.

    But yeah, with recent revelations you could definitely read that page a different way, what if Thor actually did intend to hit Loki, but the hammer was like 'nope, not gonna hit my new master in the face' and then Thor bluffed his way through because the alternative was giving up the hammer after only just getting it back. What he said isn't technically a lie, and it may in fact be how he's lifting the hammer even though it's getting heavier, much like Odin way back when, he's overriding the enchantment with All-Father powers, but it also doesn't necessarily apply to the hammer stopping in midair. It could explain why he's so mad at Loki too. Maybe he somehow can feel that it wants to go to him, so wants to keep Loki away so that can't happen. Would also fit with his reaction when Sif told him she had sent it to Jotunheim. She sent i there with the intention that no one there would be able to lift it (whoops!) but Thor might have realized she just sent it to who the hammer wanted to go to.

  10. #190
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    I havenít been on here for a while, Iíve been waiting to see what would happen with Loki after his solo was cancelled and so far, Iím liking the direction thatís been taken. Loki hasnít appeared all that much, but some major things are happening with his character. A lot to get into here.

    The first being that heís now worthy of Mjolnir. Before I get into that Iíve been seeing what Thor fans think and most are either disgruntled that Thor seemingly is becoming unworthy again or they think itís some kind of trick. Iíve only seen a few that seemed to really believe it. I donít think though Thor is becoming unworthy, itís not like the situation where Jane became Thor. Thor is still worthy of the hammer but it kind of doesnít belong to him anymore.

    On Mjolnir stopping before it hit Loki. I think it was likely the hammer or even Loki, unknowingly of course. One thing I notice about the panels after Mjolnir was thrown is that we never saw Thorís actual reaction to it since his face was hidden from view after he threw Mjolnir. That might not have been all that important and might mean nothing at all, but comics are based on visuals and facial reactions are quite important when it comes to comics.

    Thereís also the argument that Thor threw the hammer in anger and frustration and threw it to hit Loki. Thor also knows Mjolnir wonít do much damage to Loki and that he can survive a couple of hits with the hammer, probably more and heís never had any issues with using the hammer against Loki before. So why stop the second it was about to hit?

    My guess though is Thor knows Loki is worthy, even if heís not going to easily admit it.

    Actually, on Loki picking up Mjolnir in the latest issue of Thor, Iíve noticed that his appearance didnít change unlike with Jane. This might not mean anything at all but I kind of took it as while heís worthy and heís destined to step into Thorís role, at least for a bit, itís not going to be as Thor but as Loki. If that makes any sense.

  11. #191
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    While I don't think Loki will turn out to be MjŲlnir's one chosen master/wielder, I believe we'll find out that either it did refuse to hit Loki. But I also think that the part of the reason for Loki's worthiness will be, in addition to Loki's recent ordeals, thd change in MjŲlnir itself. It too got remade ater it was destroyed (and about the same time Loki almost/unsuccessfully died in Laufey's gut) . I guess a person is bound to change after it got resurrected, even if they are a hammer.
    Also, I'm very glad Loki didn't turn full on Thorlike when picking it up. I never liked that concept; it's like robbing Thor of his identinty.
    Last edited by Karabaja; 03-22-2020 at 11:15 AM.

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I think Loki will be the one chosen one, will explain a bit why below. It may not last 50 years like Thor did, because though i think 'the illusion of change' is falling out of fashion, and lasting development and change is becoming more likely, you know that someday someone will want to reset everything, probably. But I think he could have the role at least as long as Jane did. A major factor is going to be setting Thor up to be interesting in his new role, so the temptation to revert him, and by extension Loki, is lessened. But I do think it is possible the enchantment has changed, to kind of update it with the times, but I don't think it is a dramatic change, because Bill could lift it, as explained before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    I haven’t been on here for a while, I’ve been waiting to see what would happen with Loki after his solo was cancelled and so far, I’m liking the direction that’s been taken. Loki hasn’t appeared all that much, but some major things are happening with his character. A lot to get into here.
    Welcome back! it's been a bit quiet around here lately.... could use some more people posting

    The first being that he’s now worthy of Mjolnir. Before I get into that I’ve been seeing what Thor fans think and most are either disgruntled that Thor seemingly is becoming unworthy again or they think it’s some kind of trick. I’ve only seen a few that seemed to really believe it. I don’t think though Thor is becoming unworthy, it’s not like the situation where Jane became Thor. Thor is still worthy of the hammer but it kind of doesn’t belong to him anymore.
    Yeah, that's basically my thoughts on the matter. I think Thor thinks of the hammer as his, specifically his, but it's not. It was created before he was born (in the comics, not the myths) it belongs to the ROLE, which is bigger than just Thor, even if we have come to refer to that role by his name for the lack of anything better. He's just had the role for so long that it has become associated with him, same as with most of the other roles, which have been held by the same people for like a thousand years, pretty much. But now that's all changed, we have roles changing hands left and right, the only one without a clear replacement is Thor's role because he's being a stubborn ass who won't let go of the past. A lot like many of the fans. Because yeah, I have seen a lot of people not buying this. I do, though. If the enchantment has changed, I do not think it's by a lot, and we know it's not Loki who did it. I mean, if it's a trick, a trick ON WHOM? He was alone! Who was he 'tricking'? And I don't think Thor is 'unworthy' exactly, (though, some of his recent actions.... maybe he should be) but more that he just can't fill two roles at the same time, and the hammer knows that, and is forcing the issue.

    Like, went over this on a previous page but it bears repeating here.

    Odin --> Thor
    Heimdall --> Sif
    Brunnhilde --> Jane
    Karnilla --> Balder
    Hela --> Well, Hela still, but joined by Karnilla
    Loki --> Tyr
    Tyr --> Angela (probably)

    Why should Thor's role be excepted from changing hands, especially when Thor himself has stepped into the All-Father role?

    And a few other odds and end characters I am forgetting about, I'm sure. Like Jane herself had a role to play, one that many mortal women have held, going back to that viking woman from Aaron's run (Erika, was it? she had a cameo in Valkyrie tho!) she acted as the mortal anchor that (in part) kept pulling Thor to Midgard. This is another reason Loki's love interest should be a mortal. But we are not sure yet who this will be, it could be Verity, could be Zelma, could be someone new. But it pretty much just has to be a mortal that keeps pulling the 'Thor' to Midgard.

    The way I see the roles, it's more about the fact that the gods are creatures of story. The gods are playing parts in the story of Asgard, and that story acts as a framework to fit all these roles into, so they have to check certain boxes, even if there is wiggle room. What's going on right now is like they are re-casting a play, maybe making some tweaks to bring it up to date. Like when they make Shakespeare movies but set in the modern world, or new takes on the plays under different names. (i am hoping for more the latter so it's not a straight up repeat of what came before, even if it hits the broad story beats) But you can't have one actor playing two parts, like Thor is trying to do, it's just not going to work.

    The details can vary, but the framework is fixed, and the role holders have to fit into a particular part of the story and the relationships that story creates. This is why I don't think Beta Ray Bill, or Cap, or anyone else who has ever lifted the hammer, is going to step into the role, because while they tick the worthiness checkboxes of the enchantment, they don't fit into the story correctly. Mjolnir's enchantment doesn't determine who holds the role, it's more like if you had a code of conduct at a job. Other people can live and adhere to that code of conduct, but it doesn't give them your job. Mjolnir is just making sure the role holder is living up to their position. And whether some people want to accept it or not, of the characters that remain without a role right now, Loki actually does fit the best right now, regardless of who else may be able to lift the hammer. He's royalty, and has to balance that with the role, he's got a familial relationship to both the All-Father and the villain of the story, he's got ties to both Midgard and Asgard, he's got the whole battling arrogance and pride thing Thor had going on (more severe, actually, and he's got several other demons piled on top, but still) and he wants to prove himself and be better. No one else has all that.

    (I think Jane was a bit of an unusual situation that fell somewhere in between, in a lot of ways her story hit similar story beats to Thor himself, even if she lacked some others, and I do think she fit into the Asgard Story that is sort of governing all this, in a way that some other 'worthy' characters don't, so I think she did fill the role, but to continue the job analogy, like, she was a fillin while Thor was out sick)

    On Mjolnir stopping before it hit Loki. I think it was likely the hammer or even Loki, unknowingly of course. One thing I notice about the panels after Mjolnir was thrown is that we never saw Thor’s actual reaction to it since his face was hidden from view after he threw Mjolnir. That might not have been all that important and might mean nothing at all, but comics are based on visuals and facial reactions are quite important when it comes to comics.

    There’s also the argument that Thor threw the hammer in anger and frustration and threw it to hit Loki. Thor also knows Mjolnir won’t do much damage to Loki and that he can survive a couple of hits with the hammer, probably more and he’s never had any issues with using the hammer against Loki before. So why stop the second it was about to hit?

    My guess though is Thor knows Loki is worthy, even if he’s not going to easily admit it.
    yeah that's a good point that Thor's face was hidden, so we can't really see his reaction, and I think Loki's attention was probably focused on the hammer. I guess we will have to wait and see if there are answers on that front though.

    Actually, on Loki picking up Mjolnir in the latest issue of Thor, I’ve noticed that his appearance didn’t change unlike with Jane. This might not mean anything at all but I kind of took it as while he’s worthy and he’s destined to step into Thor’s role, at least for a bit, it’s not going to be as Thor but as Loki. If that makes any sense.
    the appearance change thing has always been a bit inconsistent, some do some don't. I think it likely has something to do with the person picking it up, and what will best help them. Like when Jane picked it up, it gave her a face covering helmet and long blonde hair, and her thoughts were something like 'yeah a disguise would probably be good' so a disguise was beneficial to her in that particular situation, so getting all Thor'd up made sense for her. But I think Loki values individuality so much, that I just can't see him wanting to do Thor cosplay, (except maybe to try and mess with Thor) or what that would do to help him.
    Last edited by Raye; 03-22-2020 at 01:54 PM.

  13. #193
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I just wanted to add a bit to the bit about who he could be tricking, he was alone.... Yes, I know Sif might have seen him. The dialogue immediately before it cut to the pages of Loki was Sif saying "I see everything now" so I kinda suspect she might have, but did not say anything to Thor to avoid angering him further. We will find out at some point I am sure. But even so, tricking her then would be a stretch. The hammer even being there was her doing in the first place, she is the one who sent it to him, that it landed at Loki's feet wasn't his doing. And if lifting it was a trick, it's one he had to pull out of his ass awfully damn quick, he had minutes to work with, if he could trick or magic his way into lifting the hammer in a couple minutes, you'd think he would have done so ages ago. But why is it that she sent it to him anyway? She didn't just send it to Jotunheim, where it could land in some snowy deserted field or something, she sent it right to his throne room. It seems intentional? But why? Does she suspect? She seems to have a better grasp on the whole roles situation than Thor does, and she is in a position to see what everyone is up to, so...

  14. #194
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    Remember WOTR Omega, when Drrf asks Loki how he got to JŲtunheinm when Bifrost is broken, and Loki answers "it's only broken at the moment..besides, she ows me a favour", and we never get the explanation of who is "she"? What if it's Sif, for the reasons (yet) unrevealed?

  15. #195
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    I actually wondered about the Sif thing. At first, I actually thought it was a bit weird she sent Mjolnir right to where Loki was, because as Raye pointed out she could have sent it anywhere on Jotunheim but yet chose to send it straight to Loki instead. At first, I thought it was strange coming from Sif since I thought it was a bit out of character for her to do that but then I was more looking at it from Sif in her previous role and how she used to view Loki. I mean I know she said that she didn’t believe anyone could lift it, but she knows from experience there are still things Loki can do to the hammer regardless. That said Sif’s view on Loki has changed over the course of the last few years so there’s that as well.

    However, seeing it from Sif’s new role, it makes more sense of why she would send the hammer straight to him. I do think Sif knows and I think she knows Thor knows as well. I think the reason she sent it to Loki was to test two theories she had, one to see if she’s right about Loki being able to lift the hammer and two to see Thor’s reaction on her sending it to a place where Loki was. I think she pretty much got her answer to both of her questions.

    I think we might see Sif and Mjolnir continue to give Thor hints and a push to finally relinquish ownership and give it to it’s now rightful owner. It seems that things might reach it’s peak in Thor #7 if the solicits has anything to go by since it seems that Thor is desperate to keep hold of the hammer but he’s just really delaying the inevitable.

    I forgot to say, it was good to see Drrf in Valkyrie. Tyr in Loki’s role is quite interesting though and I do wonder how the dynamic Tyr vs. Loki would go down, if it does happen that way.

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