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  1. #226
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I just remembered that he likely killed a number of fire demons in Hel, but not like that was a bad thing, and so did his brothers. And of course he "killed" Thor there as well in order to get him to Valhalla, but... it was Thor's idea, Loki had to be talked into it, and it was not for realsies, so....

    But yeah, can't think of anyone human or Asgardian, except the possible collateral damage deaths mentioned before, but no one like, specific. I mean, he stabbed Freyja, but I think it was clear that his intent was to put her in a coma, not kill her. Which is not great, I will admit, but... I think the closest was when he pushed the Elf Queen off that balcony, at Malekith's insistence, but Jane saved her.

  2. #227
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    Thinking about how many people he's killed, has made me think the opposite...how many people has he helped? Thor, yes, but he also, tried to help Bruce Banner recently, he is a sponsor or patron for his student at Strange Academy, he helped that one girl (can't remember her name currently) from his most recent series, I'm sure there's more I can't think of currently. But it is interesting that in subtle ways he probably has been more of a help to others than many realize. I could be wrong, and this could be it, but just wondering.
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  3. #228
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    oh thought of some deaths. the HYDRA agents in Vote Loki. Angela did the actual killing but Loki was the one who instigated it...

    As for good things, hm.... the problem is that though i really do think he's trying, he's (at least until quite recently) not very good at being good, so sometimes his helping comes with strings, bad side effects, bad methods to achieve the ends, or he's fixing something bad that he caused, though it does get less ambiguous over time, for the most part, and he has done some straight up good things recently, but let's see, besides the ones you mentioned

    - Young Avengers, he helped defeat Mother, though yeah his guilty subconscious also attacked the team, but he didn't know that at the time. Saved Wiccan from killing himself.
    - First thing in Agent of Asgard he freed Thor of that corruption (not knowing the corruption was himself from the future)
    - He then helped defeat King Loki.
    - Tricked Mephisto, which protected Sigurd from him
    - Freed Latveria of that weird mindfuckery during Axis (and then got inverted and lifted Mjolnir, but don't think that counts cus he was not himself)
    - Helped stop Ratatoskr from doing evil things. Granted, Ratatoskr was free due to an old plot of his, but...
    - Placed a spell of protection on Kamala Khan's school, which did indeed protect the school during Secret Wars.... it was later the source of some problems, but not by his doing. (sadly it seems this spell is no longer in effect :-/)
    - Helped Squirrel Girl un-kidnap Nancy Whitehead and protect a planet full of green squirrels from some con artists. Also helped defeat Dormammu during this.
    - Fixed magic, while also safely removing that spell from Zelma's soul, though doing this did involve stealing the Sorcerer Supreme position for a bit, and he accidentally killed Bats, but brought him back as a ghost. But this is also arguably one of the greatest goods he did, because having magic at it's full strength saved thousands of lives during WotR. Sure, it was Strange that cast the spells, but he would not have been able to CAST them if magic was still busted.
    - Helped Thor in Hel, negotiated a peaceful resolution with Hela, struck a deal with Karnilla that brought Balder back to life. sure that last one is more Karnilla but still.
    - Helped defeat Gamora and break everyone free during the Infinity-whatever stuff
    - then helped Wolverine protect Hector from being murdered to death by Warbringer etc.
    - Protected Freyja from Laufey, dying in the process
    - Made himself not dead, and killed Laufey, preventing him from destroying everything with the Casket of Ancient Winters.
    - Protected Drrf
    - Whatever he's up to with Star, but I think he's trying to help.
    - And I presume he will do good guy stuff vs Tyr's villain stuff

    But I would have to dig through the issues to think of more. But he has definitely done some good things. But while many of these are murky in some aspect or another, I think he's definitely been more unambiguously good since the end of WotR.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-02-2020 at 01:32 PM.

  4. #229
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Loki (and Thor!) made the cut for Marvel's picks for best hair of the MU

    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...arvel-universe

    tho honestly, i can think of a few not listed there that i would have included as well, like Meggan, Nightcrawler, Brother Voodoo, Elsa Bloodstone (seriously, how can you leave out that fantastic ponytail?)... but still, nice to have him acknowledged, and he DOES have nice hair, especially recently.

    Also, I went on a BIG ramble on tumblr the other day, after stumbling across a popular post of the pages of Loki lifting the hammer, that had over 600 notes, and a lot of people confused about what was going on.
    https://rayegunn.tumblr.com/post/614...-comics-thor-4

  5. #230
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    On Loki helping others. I canít remember every time he helped someone, but it seems that after he was reincarnated, he actually been helping others constantly, in his own Loki way of course. Actually, thinking on this, Loki in recent times has taken on the archetypal tole of a trickster God, what they were originally meant to deciphered as. Which was Gods that basically helped other Gods by using tricks. This in a lot of ways is what Loki has been doing in recent times. Of course, when it comes to trickster Gods, the stories over time has changed constantly which I find interesting in relation to Lokiís character. I think he have discussed this before but change it a huge part of Lokiís character. In fact, I think the perfect name for him to actually be a God of is ďGod/dess of Change. I think if there is a name that would stick for Loki, it would be that one.

    Loki as mentioned before, is very progressive and I think this is one of the reasons why writers are finding it hard to go back to the status quo with him like they have with other villains. Not to mention the rise in popularity with his character over recent years. This is why most either do the whole Loki turning evil again through future storylines like King Thor or they go for a is he isnít he evil again storyline. I will be honest the latter ones I hope they are coming to an end. It was good at first, but I think it can get a bit predictable if they carry on the trend. I would like to see some more progression with Lokiís character and see him as a proper hero, albeit a flawed one. No more questioning of whether heís good still or going back to old ways. I donít want him to become a perfect hero though, although I think those types of heroes are dying out in general. I mean this is Loki we are talking about and as he mentioned himself, heís a hero in progress so I still expect him to make mistakes, manipulate others in doing what he wants etc. etc. .etc. but there should no doubt of which side of the fence he is on at the moment.

    I actually think the whole Jotunheim stuff is also very progressive to Lokiís character as he seems to be somewhat more accepting of him being a Frost Giant. I donít think Loki will ever become a frost Giant, as in appearance but heís no longer dismissing that part of himself and pretending like it didnít exist. I think classic Loki did this despite the fact that he went by his true fatherís last name. I think also the connections that the current Loki has made is also extremely important at stopping the status quo from being a thing. Classic Loki only really had a connection to few people, Thor being the main one. However with this current Loki he has a lot more ties to people; Thor, Angela, Verity, Young Avengers, Squirrel Girl, Nancy Whitehead (not a major connection but I would still count her), Odin, and Freyja (Freyjaís a bit of a weird one because of recent retcons).

    Itís good to see Loki and Thor as part of the best hair list! I donít really know whatís going on with the hammer but one thing I do know is that Loki wasnít using any tricks when he picked it up. I donít understand that logic personally. As you pointed out, one he didnít have the time to do any tricks. How did he know that Sif was going to drop the hammer right at his feet and that he had seconds to react? I think it pretty much hinted at what happened anyway which has something to do with the enchantment changing rather than any tricks Loki put on the hammer in a space of a couple of seconds. And two, again as you pointed out if Loki could have used his magic or tricks on the hammer than he would have done a long time ago.

    Although the whole change thing during when Loki lifted the hammer might not be directed at the enchantment but towards Loki. Mjolnirís enchantment might not have changed at all but everything else surrounding it is changing, especially the Asgardians.

  6. #231
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I really do think the Laufey thing was his big catalyst that bumped him from anti-hero to something more in the true good-guy category, which makes me frustrated it wasn't given more panel time, since it was such an important step in his narrative, but a lot of it has to be inferred because chunks happened off panel. I guess it may have also happened in Hel, when Tyr betrayed them. You could argue that it was at that point that Tyr took Loki's role as the bad guy, even if he started out relatively small, and that allowed Loki to make that final push because he was no longer bound by fate to be the bad guy (or, at least pretending to be the bad guy, but he was still filling that role, even if his intentions were good). But that just kinda freed Loki to not be the bad guy, it was saving Freyja from Laufey and all that followed that cemented the change. And yeah, he is far from perfect, he's still quite flawed, he's still manipulative and deceptive, he's got issues with arrogance, selfishness, pride, and he's sometimes been shown to lose his cool and get nasty when frustrated/pushed too far. (particularly in the Sorcerer Supreme story, but since Cates wrote that, it's likely to carry over to the Thor run) But that's normal for the MU, lots of other heroes have similar issues, he's not so different from Iron Man or Dr Strange in terms of his flaws, even if his past is considerably darker. And he'd be boring if he was too perfect.

    And yeah, i kinda wish they'd get past the 'is he the baddie again?!' stories, they're losing impact, unless he ACTUALLY DOES turn heel again. Just move forward with the new status quo. I mean, on the one hand i kinda get it because a lot of the characters still don't buy that he's changed, and a lot of readers still are unaccepting or unaware of his current status, so for them, it adds some drama. But for those of us who have read pretty much everything since JIM, it's like, 'again?'

    It is nice to see him not trying so hard to hide his birth heritage. And kinda tangentially related, I am wondering if the uh, well, racism in Asgard which was likely a contributing factor in him trying to hide that about himself in the first place will be acknowledged, now that he is king of Jotunheim. I know, the frost giants have a history of attacking Asgard and the other realms, so you could argue it's justified. But a lot of time, the attitudes in Asgard, even from Thor himself, went a lot deeper than that, and they're treated as little more than animals that are almost hunted for sport. And you see how some of them talk about them being kind of similar to how, say, Native Americans/First Nations people were presented, where they were just like always presented as aggressive barbarians, when in reality, it was more complex than that. With Loki as their king, I think he's likely going to frown upon any Asgardians who decide to go giant smiting because it sounds fun. (like Thor wanted to do in issue 1. And to be fair, it's something Loki himself has done in the past)

    the wording seemed to point the the enchantment changing, but if Thor and Beta Ray Bill could still lift it, even if it is getting heavier for Thor, it can't have changed too much. and as you say, it may have also been referring to the larger changes happening in Asgard as well, we'll find out in the next few issues i guess.

    edit - apparently the next arc of Thor is horror (commenters have dubbed it 'Thorror' heh) https://twitter.com/Doncates/status/1246676007639298048 so it seems the hard times are continuing.

    also Cates will be on a podcast tomorrow talking Thor https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1246472952671059974 so maybe he will have some teasers about the whole Loki situation.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-05-2020 at 11:45 AM.

  7. #232
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    This was posted today on Marvel's Youtube channel:


    On that note, Cates never ended up doing the podcast with Quesada, he says that it will make a funny story when he does make it. But Quesada said he had read everything Cates had written in preparation, and that includes through Thor 5, and seemed to really like it, so should be interesting when he actually makes it on the podcast. so, yeah looking forward to that when it does happen, whenever that is.

    But until that happens some idle thoughts, not like i have anything better to do right now.

    But been thinking a bit, off and on, the past few days, about how the big reveal/role pass off, assuming we are right about that, I'm wondering how the big reveal will come about. Because there will be a reveal, they would not have had that scene with Loki if there wasn't to be a reveal. the one i would prefer is that they reveal Loki as the new (though presumably temporary, like Jane) wielder/role holder, but might also just be a reveal of something being wrong with Mjolnir. I suspect we will go through this whole arc with Thor in the arc following the current one, trying to, as he did in the first arc, play both roles at once, but the hammer will be like 'nope.' It's hard to be more specific though, since all we know right now is that it is a horror story called 'prey for your god' which seems to suggest something hunting the Asgardians, maybe? but by who/what? dunno. Anyway, what i'm picturing is that they go through the arc, and they need Mjolnir to beat the thing, but Thor can not lift it, and so someone else has to. I am not sure why Beta Ray Bill etc. won't do it, maybe they were taken out earlier, but eventually Loki steps up and does it, everything's good again yay, but Thor sad. I think around that point, we may get a new Loki series, but that means a new Loki book would be like 7ish months off? still, better than never.

    A thought occurs to me. If Loki figured out what happened, with him and Tyr and Thor and the roles and all, and I think he's clever enough to see it, even if only in hindsight, do you think Loki might be a bit grateful towards Tyr? Or be kind of reluctant to try and help Tyr be better? Because it is largely thanks to Tyr that he was able to escape his old role. The way I see it, not all roles are weighted equally, certain roles are the linchpins that everything else relies on to not fall apart. While some of the lesser roles can change hands without being influenced by those key roles, (like Sif taking over Heimdall's role, simply because he was her brother) those linchpin roles MUST be filled, and will influence other roles that surround them. We're mostly talking Thor/hero and Loki/villain, followed by Odin/all-father (he may be the head of the pantheon, and is the most powerful, but in terms of the story, Thor is the star, though, that may be shiftng some) and then everything else falls in line after them based on how much they drive the story. Those linchpin roles must be filled, and it's how they relate to each other, and the other characters, that makes everything turn around them. So Loki could not escape his old role, because the villain role HAD to be filled, so fate, the Norns, or whatever, that governs all this wouldn't let him escape until someone stepped up to fill that role in the narrative. And then Tyr did. He betrayed his brothers in Hel, and suddenly, Loki was free to pursue another path, because he had a replacement willing to take his place and fill that key role in the story because fate was apparently cool with having Tyr fill that role. So in a weird way, Tyr helped Loki, even though that obviously was never his intent.

    Also just had an epiphany... Something that can only be seen in hindsight. If Loki is only able to be a good guy while there is someone else in the role of antagonist, because fate pushes him into the bad guy role otherwise.... why was he able to be a good(ish) guy in Agent of Asgard? Why did he stumble as soon as it ended? Like, literally the next issue he appeared in. Because King Loki filled the bad guy role. Not sure exactly what role regular Loki was filling there, but what if Loki inadvertently fucked himself over when he got rid of King Loki, because as soon as King Loki was gone, whoops, fate pushing him to be the bad guy again, despite him wishing real hard to be something else.

    also in hindsight.... this means King Loki and Freyja were kinda right. They were wrong that it had to be Loki specifically, but they were right that Loki's role as a bad guy had to be filled.

    Still, think Tyr is a better fit in the long run, though. Would be confusing if it was 2 Lokis all the time.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-08-2020 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #233
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    I don’t think Loki has ever been pushed into a villain role after AOA though. Did he have to play the villain at times? Yes, and he did do some questionable things but all of that was for the greater good which means in the long run he was never truly pushed back into that villainous role that the Norns/Fates pushed him into time and time again. Truthfully, I just think Loki is no longer tied down to things like destiny and fate. So, I don’t think King Loki being there or not really matters.

    I actually think the Tyr thing might be the opposite way around. It’s not that Loki was allowed to change his role because of Tyr now being pushed into the role of a villain but rather Tyr is being pushed into the villain role because of Loki. In fact, I think it might be because of Loki that all these roles are being shifted around like they are because I think at the end of AOA, he created a paradox that has made the fates having to juggle the roles around. If not at the end of AOA, the paradox could have happened either at the end of WOTR or even in his solo. I think despite some contradictions with Cates Thor, I think it’s largely canon and if the whole Loki having extra pages in his story was still the case that could have also caused a paradox. I don’t know, personally I would go with the AOA ending just because we know it’s definitely canon.

    Since the Fates can no longer use Loki, they are using Tyr and pushing him into the role of a villain instead.

    By the way though, I’m not saying that Loki was the only paradox I think there was a few that has caused this, but I think he’s definitely one of them. I mean it might have actually all started when Thor stopped the repeat of RagnarŲk happening or when Loki truly died during Siege. Because at the end of it all, this Loki isn’t actually classic Loki. That Loki truly did die during the Siege. Although I think Loki is just calling classic Loki and Kid Loki him now to stop the confusion but technically that is not the case. Even I’m confusing myself there lol.

    I mean it’s possible though that the fates did try and push Loki back into the villainous role after AOA but found that it didn’t work so now have recently turned their sights onto Tyr. I suppose though it could be as you said and it’s because of Tyr that Loki was able to step out of his role as villain. I just don’t think that is the case though myself.

    On one hand I actually wouldn’t mind if there was two Lokis. I don’t think it would be that confusing since one will most likely look old and ugly, at least to our eyes while the other will be more young and good looking (depending on artist). The problem I see with them doing this is finding a way to make it look good without it being repetitive. I always love the whole Loki vs. Loki dynamic because it goes hand in hand with Loki being his worst enemy, something that has been said multiple times by different writers and characters.

    On the other hand, Tyr brings a possible fresh dynamic to the table though.

    Yeah, I do think we'll get a new Loki solo. Okay, I hope more than think but I think there has been little signs but I think they are setting it up right this time. I loved Loki's solo from Daniel Kibblesmith and I think the premise overall was great but I think for Loki to truly have his own solo series where he's a hero then he needs to be more established as a hero first. I think the trouble is that a lot of fans are still completely confused over Loki's character.

  9. #234
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Loki definitely felt like he was being pushed into the role of villain, he would not have felt so depressed about how everything went if he didn't, and he even flat out said as much while inside Laufey, as well as in the whole Infinity-whatever thing. Seems like he felt the catalyst was Freyja, he did what he felt was needed to save her, and then from there it was a slippery slope he couldn't escape. Yeah his intentions were good, not denying that, and he was just playing the part, but he was still filling the role by doing that. There isn't any difference to the outside observer, (unless, like us, you have some insight into his frame of mind, but I think the 'observer' here is the MU as a whole) between playing the part and doing bad things for a good reason, and playing the part and doing bad things for a bad reason. He still looks like the bad guy either way, and it still accomplishes the roughly same thing, it's just that in one scenario Loki is losing the fight on purpose. Basically, I think we have to think of this in terms of how the other characters of the MU, especially the Asgardians, saw him during that time, they are the intended audience that this grand play is for, not us. They are watching the story the play is putting on, we are reading a story about the actors, at least in Loki's case. And they definitely saw him as the bad guy, based on their reactions.




    There are some muddy scenarios where it's a bit more complicated though, and it may be that he was no longer considered right for the role because of that. Like, fixing magic. Even though he did steal the position of Sorcerer Supreme to do it, there's just no way to spin that as a villainous act, he was given the choice between helping all magic users on the planet, and keeping ultimate power for himself, and he chose the former. But I still think that overall he still was seen as the bad guy by most of the MU, and in particular among the Asgardians, which i think counts for more.

    I think Tyr is also being pushed, some, same as all the other gods, their fates are scripted, depending on the roles they fill. But I don't think just anyone can fill a role, you have to display certain qualities first, ('if they be worthy' isn't just for Thor) which may then be exaggerated by whatever force is governing this, but there has to be some seed there, or the story doesn't make sense, the characters need believable motivations for their actions. But yeah I guess the Tyr and Loki situation is kind of a chicken or the egg scenario, where it is hard to say which came first. Do you consider Tyr's betrayal in Hel to be the first act? then he came first, and Loki followed, If you consider the Rokkva his first villain act, then Loki came first. But that only applies if you think Loki was filling the villain role when he stabbed Freyja and etc. leading up to that. Personally, I think Loki was fated to be the bad guy until the Hel arc. I think that arc was the catalyst for a lot of new roles, actually. It was that arc that Tyr first betrayed the brothers, and was punished for that by Thor (his first step towards All-Father, imo) Thor then trusted Loki with his life, literally, and Loki came through, Loki's first real step, at least under Aaron's pen, towards being a good guy, Balder was brought back to life, which set him up to be the Norn King, Karnilla became a queen of Hel, and to top it off, it brought the Valkyries into the war, they would not have died, necessitating Jane to take up the mantle, if they had not. (and also probably allowed Loki to keep on living when eaten by Laufey) That story arc is the first domino to fall in the great role switch that followed. Sure, Jane tested the waters with her time as Thor, and that kind of set things up, but her being in that role was temporary, and not part of the big switchup that would follow.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-08-2020 at 07:45 PM. Reason: added pictures

  10. #235
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    I wish a writer would pull all the subtle directions into one cohesive story that sets Loki in a great direction of more growth. It seems as of the past few years, several writers have hinted at it, started storylines of it, but no one has been able to successfully pulled them together or been able to be really allowed to craft such a deep and far reaching story for Loki.

    Any time things get started, they end before they get the chance to flourish. I'm hoping the future of Loki with the help of his Disney+ show will give his stories the boost and opportunities they could use.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

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    This just means then that Loki will always end up being the bad guy. I think it’s time we accepted this fact because it’s clear this is what Loki has been set up for. It’s a shame but it’s the truth. Tyr isn’t going to stay in the villain role for long, in fact it wouldn’t surprise me if Loki suddenly tries to kill Tyr and tries to gain the power, Tyr unleashed for himself. After all this is the role the Norns have put him in and this is the role that he will forever remain.

  12. #237
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Loki definitely felt like he was being pushed into the role of villain, he would not have felt so depressed about how everything went if he didn't, and he even flat out said as much while inside Laufey, as well as in the whole Infinity-whatever thing. Seems like he felt the catalyst was Freyja, he did what he felt was needed to save her, and then from there it was a slippery slope he couldn't escape. Yeah his intentions were good, not denying that, and he was just playing the part, but he was still filling the role by doing that. There isn't any difference to the outside observer, (unless, like us, you have some insight into his frame of mind, but I think the 'observer' here is the MU as a whole) between playing the part and doing bad things for a good reason, and playing the part and doing bad things for a bad reason. He still looks like the bad guy either way, and it still accomplishes the roughly same thing, it's just that in one scenario Loki is losing the fight on purpose. Basically, I think we have to think of this in terms of how the other characters of the MU, especially the Asgardians, saw him during that time, they are the intended audience that this grand play is for, not us.
    I basically agree, in principle, that he was playing the part, and the acting was diagetic -- for an in-universe audience. But combine that with the roles/archetypes idea (and here I can't help but think of Fables' "there are always three pigs" idea) and you can get a good idea of why he would be not only depressed at acting by role, but scared that it will "take." If enough people believed he was backsliding into playing to type, it might become real. There's some evidence that this may be true, and even more that Loki at least thinks it may be true, including the page you posted above.

    And that's why, as you've suggested a number of times in the past, it's important that 1. Someone else fill the "stone that hones the sword" role (Tyr), and 2. Loki has an audience for cementing his role as "sword"/"Thor". Someone needs to believe in him, preferably someone that can cause others to, as well (Sif?).

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Right, that's a good point, about the audience, and it is why he is not doomed to forever be the bad guy IF he can get the hammer, publicly with no tricks, and maybe join the Avengers. As soon as the audience (the MU) can see him being a good guy, and they start to believe it, then that makes the role more likely to stick. Same as happened with us. The MU is just lacking information that we have, because we can see inside his head at times, so a more performative approach is needed.

    It's definitely possible that Sif is the first Asgardian to witness this, she can see everything, and she quite likely witnessed Loki picking up the hammer, hell, as discussed in this thread, she may have sent the hammer to him to test a hunch. But he's also likely going to have a bit of a harder time winning her over, considering what he did to her in the past. But that also means that if he can win her over, he can win anyone over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Aegis View Post
    I wish a writer would pull all the subtle directions into one cohesive story that sets Loki in a great direction of more growth. It seems as of the past few years, several writers have hinted at it, started storylines of it, but no one has been able to successfully pulled them together or been able to be really allowed to craft such a deep and far reaching story for Loki.

    Any time things get started, they end before they get the chance to flourish. I'm hoping the future of Loki with the help of his Disney+ show will give his stories the boost and opportunities they could use.
    Yeah, it's possible Cates will do that, just not in this arc, since it is more focused on Thor right now, (and I mean, it's his book, so that's understandable) and I think Aaron liked playing things close to the vest with Loki where he knew more than he directly put on the page, even though he could have, which was frustrating at times. I think we need someone who is really good at digging into a character's core. Cates is actually really good at that, but I dunno if he' do both. I think I'd also like to see Nick Spencer have a go. or Chip Zdarsky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    This just means then that Loki will always end up being the bad guy. I think it’s time we accepted this fact because it’s clear this is what Loki has been set up for. It’s a shame but it’s the truth. Tyr isn’t going to stay in the villain role for long, in fact it wouldn’t surprise me if Loki suddenly tries to kill Tyr and tries to gain the power, Tyr unleashed for himself. After all this is the role the Norns have put him in and this is the role that he will forever remain.
    No, it doesn't. It means he is destined to be the bad guy while the fates want him to. But in the MU, fate/roles can change, and if it does, then he can be the good guy. The role switch means fate has changed, so he can be the good guy now. They can change back, but it's not guaranteed. And as A Silver Quickly pointed out, the audience could count for something to, which means performing the role of the good guy can help cement it in the future, the same way that performing the role of the bad guy can cement him as the bad guy. Remember, WE are not the audience he has to convince, he's already convinced us. It is the MU that is the audience we are talking about here.

    Yeah, we can get into pessimism about the real world likelihood of it sticking (though, it's been 10 years, i think his chances are not bad, even if the next writer, or even Cates himself, chooses to put Thor back in his old role) but I'm just talking in-universe here, and the rules governing the whole role situation right now.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-08-2020 at 08:39 PM.

  14. #239
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    That’s exactly what the fates want though for Loki to be the bad guy therefore Loki will always be the bad guy. The MU audience will never see him as a good guy though, that has already been quite clear and stated many times. I doubt he’s lifting Mjolnir, at least not for real. While it’s clear him lifting Mjolnir wasn’t a trick by him, there was certainly other forces at play. It will probably turn out that many can now lift it and there will be a big play for it in issue 7. I think it’s issue 7 where you see all those hands going for Mjolnir.

    I know I’m being pessimistic here, but your post just proved to me that there is no hope at all for Loki to be the good guy. The fates want bad Loki. The MU audience wants bad Loki (as we seen in AOA), the audience on our end largely want bad Loki so they can get their classic Thor vs. Loki back. The writers also clearly want bad Loki as well. Let’s face it as much as I would love for good Loki to continue or even neutral Loki to continue, it’s clear they have been trying to set him up to go back to his villainous ways. We have already seen that he goes evil in the future.

    Look I hope I'm wrong but so far no one has really written Loki as a good guy.

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    no, they USED TO want him to be the bad guy. They don't any more. The fates in the MU don't seem to be something that says 'you are going to be this thing forever' it's more like 'you are going to be this thing right now' but they can change their minds, under the right circumstances. It doesn't happen frequently, but it happens. It happened way back when when Odin became the All-Father, it happened again when Thor became worthy and began filling the role he occupied until very recently, it happened when Loki became the bad guy, taking over from Cul, probably happened many other times over the years, but those are the big ones, and it is happening again now.

    I mean yeah, we can't control or really predict what future writers will do, it's certainly possible that sometime someone will just come in and hit a big reset button. But that does not seem to be what is happening right now. And I think some people have written Loki as a good guy, just.... with some caveats. And I do think his solo had him as the most unambiguously good that we've seen him yet, even if it ended too soon. His motives may have been a bit.... well, they could have been better, boredom is not a great motivation, but he was still trying to be good, and not by doing bad things, and going through the motions helps, as I said before, even if the motivations don't quite line up with the actions, that works both ways.

    And I don't think the writers want him bad. If they did, Aaron would not have ended WotR the way he did, on a hopeful note with Loki saving everyone from icy death, he'd have just had Loki for real join Malekith, or even take Malekith's place in the story. And Cates, as just mentioned, gave Loki one of his most heroic moments when he fixed magic. Ok, there were some caveats and murky morality going on, but I think that was born more out of making the story interesting, and making his journey harder (and therefore more rewarding and meaningful) than it was trying to reset him to being a bad guy. And while I do have some problems with Duggan's take, I do have to admit that Infinity Watch had Loki doing something unambiguously good, when he helped Hector. And Kibblesmith of course. And you can't tell me that Kieron Gillen or Al Ewing would want to revert him to a villain, even though they have not been involved in Loki's story recently. So there are plenty of writers who at worst want him to be an anti-hero.

    edit - on the Cul note... come to think of it, Kid Loki happened while Cul was freed and going on his Fear Itself rampage. I don't think that one was intentional, but.... eh, it lines up, right? Cul was doing the villainous family member thing, so Loki, briefly, got to be the good guy, but then Cul was defeated and... well, fate. but there is no saying the Tyr thing has to be as brief. Tyr is actually more interesting as a bad guy, so there's little motivation to reset him to a more boring status quo, unless the motivation as just to put Loki back in that role. But I really don't think most writers these days want that, and in particular i don't think Cates wants that, as i said above.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-08-2020 at 09:32 PM.

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