Page 1 of 24 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 352
  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Loki Appreciation 2020



    So I guess they are rebooting all the threads every year then. I am not going into a big spiel about Loki right now, if you're here, you know who he is and presumably like him. The pic above pretty much sums it all up.

    Here's the old thread's last page: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-2019/page106

    And I just read Thor #1. Honestly, it's still a bit unclear what Cates is going to be doing with Loki, but Thor definitely doesn't seem to like him much, though I think some of that is just due to Loki striking a nerve.

    spoilers:
    So, after the pages we saw in the preview, Thor goes back to his new throne and tells everyone to leave, as he has to prepare some big speech for a bit later. So everyone goes, except Loki, who says something about Thor being nervous, that he always was when he had to do 'royal' stuff. Thor tells Loki to bow, Loki begrudgingly agrees, but clearly doesn't like it. He tells Loki to leave, and if he ever comes back to his realm unbidden he'll tell his ravens to pluck out his eyes. And then Thor picks up Mjolnir, and Loki says that looks like it's getting heavier, and that's when Thor snaps and chucks it at his head, to remind him that he still has the power of the All-Father. So that's a definite departure from Loki's solo book, where he and Thor were on very good terms. But the captions the next page says that Loki was right about both things, that Thor was nervous and Mjolnir was feeling heavier of late, and there was an ominous teaser that he would not like the reason why, when he found out. But just as he's about to deliver the speech, Galactus comes crashing out of the sky, and Thor goes to fight him, but then Galactus asks for his help against the mysterious 'Black Winter'. Cut to a week or so later, and Yggdrasil is rotting, and Thor has sought out a bunch of Galactus' previous Heralds and gathered them there, since they are of course the experts on all things Galactus. He wants them to tell him what the Black winter is (why Galactus, who is still hanging around Asgard, hasn't said, I dunno, maybe he was unable, he was badly injured) and Surfer says it is the end of all things, the entropy that consumes the universe between each cycle. He says Galactus is the only one who has seen it the last time it consumed the universe and lived, and that Galactus is the only one who can face it again, since he survived the last time. Additionally, he says he has scouted out a number of planets that will give Galactus immense power, enough to stop the Black Winter, which he has kept secret from him until now. The Heralds say they will guide him to the planets, and Thor says he wants to go along, along with a group of Asgardians (the ones in the panel released a couple days ago) But Galactus says no, he will not be led by his Heralds, that Thor must be the one who did it. Says that when he touched the Black Winter he saw his 'one true death' and that he saw Thor. so... he charges up Thor with the Power Cosmic, as he says that he did not come to Asgard by accident, that he chose to come there because of what he saw, that he and Thor will stop the Black Winter together, so that Thor will be close so that he can 'have words' with him afterward. The end.
    end of spoilers

    So I think it is a promising start. Tho it appears the 'Black Winter' isn't actually, you know, wintery at all, more like a rot, so there goes that little bit of speculation about it powering a weapon like the Mother Storm (tho the Casket of Ancient Winters is still sitting around in the background for that). For the Loki stuff, as mentioned, not a whole lot was revealed here about how Loki himself will be written, there wasn't all that much to the meeting with him and Thor, and that said a lot more about Thor than it did Loki. Honestly, it seemed to me Loki, while he may have been pushing things a bit, seemed to be friendly, until Thor was all like 'bow' and he didn't like that, so he needled Thor cus of that, and things just soured quickly. But no hint was given about what part he'd play in the story after that meeting, so... *shrugs*

  2. #2
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    460

    Default

    I won't get my issue till later in the week. But I'm already left with questions that hopefully get answered over the next several issues, such as, well who will be on the Throne? If Thor is going off, what role will Loki play? And supposedly this was supposed to be a Thor that had created a new dynamic with Loki and Asgard as a whole, yet from his actions it sounds like he's just being Odin 2.0 with the "bow" and venting his anger at others and commanding. Just going off of what you described and I know it's just a first issue, but yeah, I'm curious as to how characterization will develop and the interaction dynamics. I miss Loki's series.

    Raye, thanks for starting our thread and for posting a review of the issue!
    Last edited by Prof. Aegis; 01-01-2020 at 09:06 AM.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    50,388

    Default

    Happy New Year to the eternal God of Mischief, Stories, etc in all his forms .

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Default

    You know, it didn't quite occur to me at the time, but Thor did come across quite Odinish. Asshole Odin, I mean, since he has different portrayals. Tho I guess that is the case with Thor, too, where he was like nice and wise Odin in Loki's book, lol. I guess the difference is that with Odin, we never really got much of a look inside his head to explain why he behaved the way he did, he was just the way he was in any given story and we rolled with it. But with Thor we are getting that.

    Still though, especially coming off of Loki's solo, where he was friendly and wanting to give Loki advice, (even if it came off as a bit clueless about where Loki was coming from, and it seemed like he didn't really believe Loki could change) this is a bit jarring, and it may point to what i didn't want from their relationship in this run, where its being kinda forced into being antagonists/foils for each other, which is a bit disappointing. Though unusually, it was Thor that was the biggest asshole here, rather than Loki. Sure, Loki gave him reason to be annoyed by not leaving when he told everyone to go, and then (probably intentionally) picked up on his insecurities and pointed them out, but I don't think it really called for threats of eyes being plucked out, being basically told he was not welcome in Asgard, and then having a hammer thrown at his head, even if Thor stopped it. Really it seemed to me that Loki thought he could just talk to his brother cus they are brothers, so figured he probably had some special privileges the others didn't to stay and speak his mind, and then was pissed that Thor apparently did not think so. Even if, yes, I get that the history there gives Thor reasons to not like him, but, again, his portrayal in Loki's book makes this seem to come out of nowhere, and if Loki's last interaction with Thor was the stuff in his solo, I could see why he'd think he could stay and talk.

    Also, as mentioned I really am not sure how Loki will play into the rest of the arc. I presume he will, he had the largest non-Thor part in the book from the Asgardian side of things (I think Surfer and Galactus said more, but given the plot it is easy to see why) and I don't think they would have devoted several pages to him if he didn't have some part to play, but with Thor having sent him back to Jotunheim and making it clear he didn't want him in Asgard, it is not clear at all what his part will be. The interaction set him up to be an antagonist, but given his recent portrayals I don't think it makes sense for him to target Asgard while Thor is away or something, so I dunno.

    Anyway, I hope Loki makes Thor bow to him if he goes to Jotunheim.

    And we have Star coming next week (?) as well, so that's something else to look forward to.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member twisted sun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    313

    Default

    I dont post here much but I lurk a lot being a Thor fan but still keep up with Loki some lol. One thing that is jarring is the turn of the relationship between Loki and Thor. They were on understandable terms coming out of WOTR and in Loki's book, but now Thor is suddenly an asshole. Maybe he was like that from his nerves of having to give that big speech and was irritated with everyone and I remember Cates or someone saying he was having issues settling into being king.

    One thing I noticed about Thor writers is that his personalities are at different ends of the spectrum when he's just warrior/avenger Thor and whenever he's King Thor. It's like that they try to make him into Odin whenever he's king, even down to his look. I know that's his father and he's learned from him blah blah blah but he can take the good and bad qualities and basically be himself as king not Odin 2.0.

    I am waiting to see how their relationship as two kings will play out and hopefully either during or after this arc we get to see it.

  6. #6
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    138

    Default

    I'm coming back in with a gap in my knowledge. I've read the new Cates Thor, but I'm missing some things, like the return of Yggdrasil and Mjolnir.

    I've followed along without reading for a while, so I have the basics to understand what Twisted is saying about, and agree that Thor's being an asshole here. Then again, he's been dwelling with a huge power boost from becoming All-Father.

    Fill me in?

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by twisted sun View Post
    I dont post here much but I lurk a lot being a Thor fan but still keep up with Loki some lol. One thing that is jarring is the turn of the relationship between Loki and Thor. They were on understandable terms coming out of WOTR and in Loki's book, but now Thor is suddenly an asshole. Maybe he was like that from his nerves of having to give that big speech and was irritated with everyone and I remember Cates or someone saying he was having issues settling into being king.

    One thing I noticed about Thor writers is that his personalities are at different ends of the spectrum when he's just warrior/avenger Thor and whenever he's King Thor. It's like that they try to make him into Odin whenever he's king, even down to his look. I know that's his father and he's learned from him blah blah blah but he can take the good and bad qualities and basically be himself as king not Odin 2.0.

    I am waiting to see how their relationship as two kings will play out and hopefully either during or after this arc we get to see it.
    I think some of that is the whole 'roles' thing that was set up with Aaron's run. I had hoped that Cates would show that filling a role doesn't have to mean becoming a clone of the previous holder of the position, especially after Aaron ended his run with Thor saying he wanted to make changes, but it seems like he's falling into Odin 2.0 again. Though it is just the first issue, and that may change.

    As for roles, the question of who is filling Loki and Thor's old role is still there, we saw that Balder is now the Norn King, filling Karnilla's old role, so he's out, Jane is doing her Valkyrie thing, and Sif is filling Heimdall's role. So we're starting to run out of candidates for both those vacant roles. But I think/hope the question of these two empty roles will come into play. I don't want Loki to just go back to his old role, I think he's worked too hard to escape it, and with everything going on this seems like the perfect time to put it behind him for good, and as unlikely as it seems, I think he could work in Thor's role, given what was teased in his own book, and we learned of worthyness in Aaron's run. But I don't really want to see him become a clone of Thor just cus he's doing his old job, any more than I want Thor to be Odin 2.0. And the question of who is going to take Loki's place also needs an answer, and that was teased in Loki's final issue, too, 'the new god of chaos' he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Silver Quickly View Post
    I'm coming back in with a gap in my knowledge. I've read the new Cates Thor, but I'm missing some things, like the return of Yggdrasil and Mjolnir.

    I've followed along without reading for a while, so I have the basics to understand what Twisted is saying about, and agree that Thor's being an asshole here. Then again, he's been dwelling with a huge power boost from becoming All-Father.

    Fill me in?
    Okay, so when Asgardia was destroyed by Mangog, most of it went into the sun, along with Yggdrasil. A seed took root in the sun, and grew there. During WotR, Thor got Daredevil to pin him to the World Tree in the sun Odin style, and the last fragment of Mjolnir that he had was taken from him as part of the sacrifice he was making. He had an epiphany about what it means to be worthy fro the granted wisdom and all, and Mjolnir was reforged inside the sun, the shaft is a branch of Yggdrasil, which is why it's all gnarly looking. The epiphany he had was that and realized that he was worthy because he knew Gorr was right, and he (and all other gods) wasn't worthy, but tried to be anyway. By that, i mean he had become unworthy before because he thought Gorr was right, and that gods were a detriment to mortals, so he kinda gave up trying, believing it was not possible to be the kind of god mortals needed, he was always going to let people down, probably more people than he actually helped, because he could not answer every prayer, he could not be everywhere and do everything. When he was worthy, he knew that he could never live up to what a god should be, but that didn't mean he should not try. The key to worthiness is knowing you're not worthy, and likely never will be, but trying your best to be anyway. I think Aaron is arguing that even if gods exist, they should be GOOD gods, in order to be worthy of worship, or at least try to be, even if it's not really possible given the lack of omnipotence in gods like Thor. Mere existence does not make a worthy god.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-01-2020 at 06:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    138

    Default

    Okay...so the way I see it, then, the reason Mjolnir is getting heavier would lie along one of two (possibly mutually exclusive) story branches:

    spoilers:
    Either it's the rather obvious that Thor is shirking his kingness except when it suits him (for example, not taking Sif's advice and making Loki bow) OR

    What I see is more likely is that with the boost in power and the recent success, Thor seems to be buying into himself. I mean, he rarely lacked confidence and it sounds like worthiness is, to some extent, linked with that confidence. But here he is chirping on about his godliness and isn't casting himself as a warrior or protector, but as a god. Maybe the All-Father power has given him a bit of an attitude...which we saw when he hurled Mjolnir at Loki. If you're gonna be a dick and make a "foreign king" bow, you can't turn around and flex on him with how you're above all the kings -- which is also how the issue started. He literally threatens extreme war if the realms aren't peaceful.

    Just a huge amount of hypocrisy here.

    And now he's ALSO imbued with the Power Cosmic, which would make him, roughly, a combination of THREE of the greatest powers in the Marvel Universe (which is something Cates LOVES to do -- as we were reminded of with the inclusion of Cosmic Ghost Rider). I foresee a BIG fall here. Yeah, we've got yet another universe-destroying entity out there, blah blah blah, but you just made a god with his own powers + the powers of the All-Father and a burgeoning superiority complex (see the above examples and the fact that he CARVED HIS NAME INTO THE WORLD TREE) even more powerful with yet another layer of world-destroying power.
    end of spoilers

    Now...will we see King Loki of Jotunheim once again take on the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme (and maybe another?) in order to save his brother from himself?

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Default

    aside - the talk about if Thor is the asshole or not has me feeling like I'm reading /r/AmItheAsshole/ and that kind of amuses me. Except Thor's not asking, tho he should.

    But you know what's also weird about Thor's assholery? Some of this comes from an interview rather than the issue itself, but you could see it on the page, too. So Thor is upset that everyone has started treating him as a king, and that means they are not talking to him like he's himself, it's all 'my lord' and blah blah, like no one is just his friend any more. So Loki talks to him, maybe not like a friend, exactly, he may have had some ulterior motive (but if so, I can't really see what it might have been, he didn't accomplish anything except get threatened and have a hammer thrown at him) but he's treating him like his brother, more than a king, even if the subject of him being a king was brought up, it was in more personal terms. He's giving Thor what he wants. And how does Thor respond? Saying he should bow to him as a 'foreign king' to remind Loki of his position and lord it over him. He could have had exactly what he wanted from Loki, but he threw it away, intentionally using his position to place himself above Loki and create distance between them. That may be why Loki even thought he could stay and talk, he may be in a similar boat, or at least saw that Thor was lonely. Loki has Verity, who will always talk to him straight, and not be put off by titles or whatever. She is a mortal and he's a god, what's a king on top of that, right? Especially since we're talking the backwater of Jotunheim here, not Asgard. It's like Thor is mayor of New York while Loki's mayor of some hick town in North Dakota. Technically the same job, but wildly different set of responsibilities and respect/power granted. But we don't know if Cates is going to have her around, and even if he does, there is no saying Loki has to restrict himself to one person.

    Which brings us to...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Silver Quickly View Post
    Okay...so the way I see it, then, the reason Mjolnir is getting heavier would lie along one of two (possibly mutually exclusive) story branches:

    spoilers:
    Either it's the rather obvious that Thor is shirking his kingness except when it suits him (for example, not taking Sif's advice and making Loki bow) OR

    What I see is more likely is that with the boost in power and the recent success, Thor seems to be buying into himself. I mean, he rarely lacked confidence and it sounds like worthiness is, to some extent, linked with that confidence. But here he is chirping on about his godliness and isn't casting himself as a warrior or protector, but as a god. Maybe the All-Father power has given him a bit of an attitude...which we saw when he hurled Mjolnir at Loki. If you're gonna be a dick and make a "foreign king" bow, you can't turn around and flex on him with how you're above all the kings -- which is also how the issue started. He literally threatens extreme war if the realms aren't peaceful.

    Just a huge amount of hypocrisy here.

    And now he's ALSO imbued with the Power Cosmic, which would make him, roughly, a combination of THREE of the greatest powers in the Marvel Universe (which is something Cates LOVES to do -- as we were reminded of with the inclusion of Cosmic Ghost Rider). I foresee a BIG fall here. Yeah, we've got yet another universe-destroying entity out there, blah blah blah, but you just made a god with his own powers + the powers of the All-Father and a burgeoning superiority complex (see the above examples and the fact that he CARVED HIS NAME INTO THE WORLD TREE) even more powerful with yet another layer of world-destroying power.
    end of spoilers

    Now...will we see King Loki of Jotunheim once again take on the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme (and maybe another?) in order to save his brother from himself?
    I don't see why it can't be kind of both, honestly, with one thing kind of feeding the other. It is clear Thor is kinda shirking his duties, he got everyone to leave before doing any kinging, kind of leaving it in Volstagg's hands, (to be fair, he's well suited to that kind of thing, but still) then after Galctus crashed directly into the crowd of people, it said the officials were counting the dead and calculating the cost, while 'trying to ignore the silence of their king' and then, even before getting the Power Cosmic, he decides to lead a group alongside Galactus and the Heralds when, honestly, that's a Thor (as in the role) job, not an All-Father one. Coupled with everything else, it feels like it was him trying to have another adventure more than anything. And yes, this is very similar to what Loki was doing in his solo, I'm not saying Loki wasn't shirking his own duties, but the stakes were also lower there. New York vs North Dakota and all. Thor shirks his duties during a crisis and it's a bigger problem than Loki not being there to resolve a stolen ax dispute.

    But, I read the hammer flight a bit differently. I can see what you saw, now that you mention it, but I read it not as Thor threatening people to stay in line or else, but more of an expression of how people see him differently now. The way I read it, he was hucking a hammer thru the realms for funsies to smite a monster, but the residents of the realms perceived a message in that, one that differed from realm to realm. Similar to how it was mentioned in this issue how Galactus is perceived differently by different people, the residents of the different realms take a different message away from Mjolnir hurtling through their realms. Now that he's king, he can't do anything without someone ascribing weighty meaning to it.

    And that reminds me of a song, and that shall be this month's playlist addition:


    the lyrics, cus i know it can be a hard to make out in parts: https://genius.com/Avatar-legend-of-the-king-lyrics

    but I would also pair it with another smaller filler track from the album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko9QEnBepEs he's a dude, but because he happens to be king, they attribute great value to the most trivial of details.

    But on the other hand, Thor himself did say the 'the old king is gone' line to himself later in the issue, so... And he could still end up being kinda hopped up on power even if the message taken by the citizens of the realms wasn't something he literally put out there.

    As for the Sorcerer Supreme thing, well, while Strange is doing his surgeon thing right now, he has not relinquished the title either, and the title itself doesn't grant power anyway (well, maybe if you count access to certain artifacts) it is a recognition of how much power the title holder wields. Loki went after it before because he was convinced Strange was hiding a spell he wanted in the Sanctum Sanctorum, he wanted the house more than anything, and that's not a factor now. Same with being king of Jotunheim, ok, so he technically has an army of frost giants he can call on if needed, but it doesn't grant any personal power in the same way the All-Father gets the Odinforce (now the Thorforce, I suppose) so I am not sure what collecting titles would really get him, and he's also said he doesn't want the Infinity Stones for himself, even though he's repeatedly getting involved with the people who do have them. But aside from that, yeah, it might be that he has to save Thor from himself.

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    125

    Default

    Given how Thor acts around Loki here, and how disillusioned he seems about, well, everything, I wonder if Loki's book will be considered canon at all. I hope we still get some explanation for this change of attitude; it does say that this story begins months after WOTR has ended, and Loki's book feels like events take place right after it, so Thor had plenty of time to become disappointed and frustrated, and plenty of things could have happened between them two. Loki did seem shocked and infuriated by Thor's attitude here; that might imply that this is not how their relationship looked like during those past months.
    As for Mjolnir, the most obvious answer would be that it feels heavier because Thor acts jerkier; instead of being a warrior equal to those around him, he's all royal and untoucheable, and Mjolnir might not like that. I don't recall I've ever seen Thor ordering someone to bow before him, and he was in the position od Asgard's ruler before. I'm probably wrong, but it seems obvious and logical.
    Also, I'm loving the art here, especially facial expressions.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Default

    I mean, as you say, I can see how over a few months Thor could have gone from optimistic to disillusioned (he's also more happy and outgoing in Avengers, until he gets Broodified, and presumably sometime after that, leaves the team. but the timelines are not in sync there, Thor seems set in the future relative to Avengers at the moment, so not sure exactly how/why he leaves. So it's not just Loki this depiction clashes with some) due to a number of factors, from finding he misses his old life, to having his friends begin to treat him differently, to finding his duties unfulfilling. I could also see him possibly thinking he HAS to treat Loki badly here because Loki, while his brother, is also the leader of a realm that has historically been hostile to Asgard, so like he feels obligated to put aside his familial relationship and focus on the political one. Even tho he seemed genuinely pissed off at Loki, and also you'd think it would be in Asgard's best interests to create a friendly relationship with Jotunheim so things can continue to be peaceful. Or he was just having a bad day. It's just, we haven't seen how he gets from then to now, so it's a bit jarring here.

    The real test for whether Loki's book is being ignored or not is going to come when they show Jotunheim, if they ever do. Like, besides the quick one panel shot we got of it here, something with Loki and how things are run, see if Drrf is there or not. if Drrf is there on Jotunheim (and Verity on Midgard, should we see Loki on Midgard, but that one is less certain, it's much easier to justify no Verity on Midgard if Loki goes there than it is to justify no Drrf in Jotunheim) then his solo is being counted, if he's not there, it's probably being ignored. But Loki does have the crown he's wearing in his solo and he's back to his Agent of Asgard outfit in Thor as well, so at least visually there is continuity there.

    For the worthiness thing, I'm just going by what was stated at the end of WotR for the qualifications of what Mjolnir deems 'worthy' and it sounds to me like it is less to do with being nice on a personal level and more to do with helping others. (good is not nice) However, having a superior attitude could contribute to not wanting to help, this is after all a large part of why Loki was such a dick for all those years. But where i am getting mixed messages here though is that, as I mentioned above, it seems as though Thor just wants to be one of the guys again, and that's why he's grumpy. It was mostly just Loki he was an asshole to and pulled the rank card on. Like, with Sif he was all like his old self, it was she who reminded him of his position, not the other way around. so i dunno. But with the caption saying how he would not like the reason, I think it has to be a bit bigger than just, 'yer kinda a dick lately'

    Aside for the thread: I was looking around at some of the other appreciation threads, and in a lot of them, people are posting things like reading lists and notable appearances. I did not do that, I just wanted to pick up where we left off, and don't really see the point, to be honest. Especially if the thread is rebooted every year, it's just going to be overlooked before long as people gravitate to the most recent page of the thread. But if you think a reading list or something should be in there, and are willing to help put one together, I will be willing to edit the OP with the information. It's just, for a character with a history as long as Loki and one who is very different now compared to how he started out, and has had a number of big status quo shifts particularly over the past 10-15 years, it is a big task, and I just did not have it in me to do it when I just wanted to post about the new issue of Thor, which came out the same day the thread got rebooted. But the Loki thread has always been more discussion heavy, and more current event focused, (even if we get off track sometimes and end up talking music and stuff...) than some other threads, which are more like, pictures and talk about the past and stuff, so... I don't care if people want to talk about the past or share pictures, I'm just more interested in what's going on now and coming up in the future, personally.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-02-2020 at 07:34 AM.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,072

    Default

    I live! Work has been hell and Christmas was...well, expensive.

    About the reading list, do we really need one? Loki only has a few major series to look into, though I wouldn't mind if we could find some more obscure or under appreciated issues and media that we haven't devoured.

    I don't think any of you are wrong about this issue. There's a lot against Thor in this issue and personally, I think part of the reason Thor bullies Loki is because it's just something easy to do. It's a pattern they've had since they were kids and Thor probably feels safe in doing it. The problem is that, yeah, Loki really did seem genuine in his approach to Thor, which probably just made things worse.

    Ultimately, I do think that Thor and Loki will be given parallel stories, but the question is, how will that work? Will Loki fall into villainy again? Or will this be about Thor's fall?

    And I know Cates says he plans on keeping this separate from Venom for a long time, but does anyone think he can really keep to that?

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member Alpha to Omega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I don't think any of you are wrong about this issue. There's a lot against Thor in this issue and personally, I think part of the reason Thor bullies Loki is because it's just something easy to do. It's a pattern they've had since they were kids and Thor probably feels safe in doing it. The problem is that, yeah, Loki really did seem genuine in his approach to Thor, which probably just made things worse.
    When did Thor bully Loki as a kid?

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,584

    Default

    I don't know that it's ever been shown explicitly, since the books mostly focus on the present, (maybe, but i've not read everything) but it's certainly been implied that he has, from some things that have been said, a few flashbacks where Loki felt he had to hide from his siblings and such, or where they had injured him, and thought he learn magic to fight back against them since he could not compete physically. It's not clear how much of that was Thor and how much like Tyr and Balder, but he at the very least let it happen. Loki went too far, but he also didn't turn bad with no reason at all, he wasn't treated very nice by his family, including Thor. Thor wasn't the same person he is now was when younger, that's always been part of his story that he had to BECOME worthy, after learning some lessons and tempering some of his bad qualities. It means he was kind of a dick when younger, or the 'becoming better' part of his origin doesn't really work, so not like it's a big stretch. I think part of the reason he was so attached to Kid Loki is that he saw it as a second chance to be the brother he should have been the first time around.

    as an aside, the 'becoming better' bit is part of why I think Loki could work as the new 'Thor', because I think that starting out a dick and learning to be better is a key aspect for the role, and one which Loki is trying very hard to do right now, and has been doing for several years now. Sure, his dickishness is more severe than Thor's ever was, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I live! Work has been hell and Christmas was...well, expensive.

    About the reading list, do we really need one? Loki only has a few major series to look into, though I wouldn't mind if we could find some more obscure or under appreciated issues and media that we haven't devoured.
    I mean yeah, that's basically my thinking. I think he has more than 'a few' major issues, but still, I think most of us here know what those are and have read them, and we've certainly had people come into the thread asking about what to read, but like, we just answer them specifically.

    anyway, yeah, if anyone has some stuff they want me to add in there, the offer remains open that I can edit it in at any time.

    I don't think any of you are wrong about this issue. There's a lot against Thor in this issue and personally, I think part of the reason Thor bullies Loki is because it's just something easy to do. It's a pattern they've had since they were kids and Thor probably feels safe in doing it. The problem is that, yeah, Loki really did seem genuine in his approach to Thor, which probably just made things worse.

    Ultimately, I do think that Thor and Loki will be given parallel stories, but the question is, how will that work? Will Loki fall into villainy again? Or will this be about Thor's fall?

    And I know Cates says he plans on keeping this separate from Venom for a long time, but does anyone think he can really keep to that?
    I have been thinking about this a bit, and while the issue itself doesn't give many clues as to where this is going, I think A Silver Quickly is likely on the right track where Thor may have to be stopped from going too far, somehow. And I mean, it did explicitly set out his mission as being one of destroying several planets, and it was implied they were inhabited worlds, since it said they were going along to facilitate evacuation. So Thor is falling down that slippery slope that Loki so often falls into, of doing a bad thing for the greater good. Is it justified? From the sounds of things, probably, the fate of the universe is on the line, after all. But the actions he may have to take as a Herald may conflict with what makes him 'worthy'. I know Silver Surfer and some others have managed to walk that line successfully, but it's a murky situation, whereas Thor is more of a clear cut good and bad sort of guy, so may have some trouble navigating that. In Loki's case, the doing bad for a greater good is a step in the right direction, given his history, since he's at least got good intentions, even if his methods are questionable. But for Thor, it's a step in the wrong direction, due to his starting point of being pretty squarely in the 'good' camp for a very long time. So even though you could totally justify this action in isolation, given the stakes involved, in a scenario where it was Loki doing it vs Thor, for Loki it means he is on the track to becoming better, but for Thor it's on track to becoming worse, due to their respective starting points.

    So given that, to me, it would make the most sense if it was Loki that had to stop him from doing something he would regret, maybe all the remaining siblings band together, or something, maybe it's just Loki, I dunno. But I am kind of picturing a scenario where the Power Cosmic and/or what he has to do is some kind of a corrupting influence, Thor needs stopping, and Loki is the one who does it. Thor possibly also becomes unworthy (I know, again, so soon? but... it was foreshadowed in the issue, so...) as this is happening and Loki may have to pick up the hammer. Or it might be that Loki takes the bad action for a greater good so Thor does not have to. That is my best case scenario, anyway, as far as Loki specifically goes. But it really didn't offer much to go on with Loki, we just know that Thor is not his biggest fan at the moment for.... reasons... and like, old-school Loki would probably see Thor's absence as an opportunity to strike at Asgard. Given Cates' history with Loki in Dr Strange, I don't think he would go this route, or at least I hope he doesn't, since obviously he does know where Loki is at right now, and he was able to work with his current status to good effect before. But I think we are going to at least be made to think this is something Loki could do, because he is sort of a wildcard right now.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-03-2020 at 10:17 PM.

  15. #15
    Fantastic Member Alpha to Omega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I don't know that it's ever been shown explicitly, since the books mostly focus on the present, (maybe, but i've not read everything) but it's certainly been implied that he has, from some things that have been said, a few flashbacks where Loki felt he had to hide from his siblings and such, or where they had injured him, and thought he learn magic to fight back against them since he could not compete physically. It's not clear how much of that was Thor and how much like Tyr and Balder, but he at the very least let it happen. Loki went too far, but he also didn't turn bad with no reason at all, he wasn't treated very nice by his family, including Thor. Thor wasn't the same person he is now was when younger, that's always been part of his story that he had to BECOME worthy, after learning some lessons and tempering some of his bad qualities. It means he was kind of a dick when younger, or the 'becoming better' part of his origin doesn't really work, so not like it's a big stretch. I think part of the reason he was so attached to Kid Loki is that he saw it as a second chance to be the brother he should have been the first time around.
    So no actual, canon examples? Because for decades when the comics showed Thor and Loki's childhoods, Thor was usually depicted as a pretty good brother and Loki was a asshole who constantly tried to get him in trouble (and on a couple of occasions tried to get Thor killed so he could be heir to the throne).

    In fact, this is still considered canon AFAIK and was even referenced in that page you posted in the OP, so Loki was already well on his way to being evil long before Odin adopted him:


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •