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  1. #166
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    I'm seeing the parallels in story and themes as well and I can see why they cancelled Loki's series. I do wonder if they could have worked it through and altered the stories somewhat to flow. But it doesn't matter now. Hopefully through the next few stories, a new foundation is established and we will get a new Loki series. Hopefully it can be one that stands on its own just as the most recent one was building itself up to do.
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  2. #167
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    If I'm reading it right, we'll find out that Mjölnir's magic changed a bit. I don't think that it will turn out thst just anyone can lift it; I think it might turn out that the hammer itself decided to redefine the definition of worthiness.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Possibly, but while I think some fans may be speculating a drastic change, I think it's more of a tweak, otherwise Bill would not have been able to lift it. That is likely part of the reason he was included in the story and have him lift it, because the fact that he was able to still lift it, literally a couple minutes before Loki did, shows that even if the enchantment has changed, it hasn't changed enough that its like suddenly that those who were worthy can't lift it and only bad guys can. With Thor's behaviour shift, his actions in the arc so far, and the comments about the hammer getting heavier, the change, if there is one, could have been more drastic, but Bill was able to lift it as he was doing something heroic, so.... Just saying I think some fans may be thinking the hammer is operating on Bizarro rules, but I don't think so, because Bill. I wonder if Sif transported the pieces of Stormbreaker as well, and if the pieces are still under the same enchantment, then I would like to see if Loki could lift those.

    But this gives me an idea. So in the most recent Thor solicit, it says something about Thor having to become 'something else' to defeat the Black Winter, what if this means he also has to give up Mjolnir for whatever reason? But willingly, and he wants it to go to someone he trusts, and knowing that he had just fought Bill, who had lifted Mjolnir during the fight, and he broke Stormbreaker so figures he kinda owes him... Rather than naming him, he instead says to go to the last person (besides himself) who held it. So the hammer goes to Loki, because unbeknownst to Thor, Loki picked it up right after Bill had. (to draw the parallels further, Thor also broke Gram, after beating Loki black and blue. So even if he said something about a weapon he had broken, and a fight, Loki still fits) That could explain why this scene was here in the middle of the Black Winter arc at all, rather than keeping all the Loki and the hammer stuff contained in its own arc aside from maybe the teases about it getting heavier. Thor and probably most of Asgard would of course think Loki had done something to the hammer, or was otherwise employing some form of trickery. But Sif told Thor she sent the hammer to Jotunheim, so if he thought things through, he would be able to see the timeline could work there, and we know from this scene that Loki lifting it was genuine, if the rules changed, it wasn't because of anything he did.

  4. #169
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    Honestly, I don't think the magic has changed. The thing is, Loki has changed. He has sacrificed his body, his soul, everything, and why shouldn't he be worthy? Loki is a hero now! And inverted, Loki was worthy enough to lift it.

    So, yeah, I think it probably is some Asgardian character-alignment magic at play, but at the same time, it isn't much. Thor is in a place where being worthy is hard and Loki is in a place where he's been given a ton of chances to be worthy.

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I don't think just sacrifice qualifies someone for worthyness, you can want it all you like, but if you don't tick the right boxes, it doesn't matter how hard you try, or what you sacrifice in pursuit of it. I mean, look at Thor during Aaron's run, he wanted it desperately, lost his arm, etc. but that didn't matter until the end, and he had that epiphany which meant he ticked that one box he was missing again. This isn't a situation where you can get it through just wanting it and persistence. But anyway, I don't think Loki was sacrificing to be worthy, and that was all mixed in with some very shady actions, too, so... I don't think worthyness was actually part of the goal until very recently. And then, only because it could get him on the Avengers, which he wanted because he was bored. He is still not exactly a paragon of virtue and goodness. He was just trying to be... better. Just not the bad guy, there is a big jump from that to being worthy of Mjolnir. I think the worthyness crept up on him as a side effect of all he was going through. I mean, he didn't seem to expect that he was worthy, really. He did not even try to lift it it at first, probably figuring he couldn't, he was just trying to figure out why the hammer had crashed down at his feet, but it was worth a shot.... (which actually fits quite well with worthyness as defined in WotR)

    And also, to be fair, we can't use inverted Loki as any sort of gauge, since the whole point was that he was different than he normally was, and who he is now is still different from his inverted self, thankfully. It was a demonstration that you could be a huge asshole and still be worthy tho.

    But anyway yeah, Loki has definitely changed, and I think his self improvement quest is definitely a contributing factor here, especially if you go by how worthyness was described at the end of WotR. (you know you are not worthy, and likely can never be, because it is impossible, but you try anyway) but the wording seemed to be talking about the hammer specifically... Though it could have been talking about Loki too. Like i said, even if something in Mjolnir's enchantment did change, it had to be small, otherwise Bill would not have been able to lift it just a couple minutes prior. But I do not think Loki was even close to worthy until after he sliced Laufey open. That whole scenario from slicing off Laufey's hand to crawling out of his corpse was a by the numbers speed run of Heroes Journey, even if some of it sadly happened off panel and has to be inferred. That's where I think Loki gained the special knowledge, (subconscious though it may be) and attitude shift that allowed this to happen. So yeah, that all definitely matters, I'm pretty sure. I wouldn't like it if it was only due to a rule shift that he is now worthy, and all his efforts did not contribute here at all. But there may also be a tweak to the enchantment as well. It may be that with so many roles changing hands, this is seen as a sort of new era, and the roles have to evolve a bit with the times, and so the enchantment was updated to reflect that. And yeah, it may be that being All-Father, and the sorts of decisions Thor has to make in that role, is incompatible with worthyness as defined by the enchantment, but I think this runs a bit deeper, as well.

    I am hoping the Valkyrie story helps clarify this, if she can help make clear that he was Valhalla bound when he died to Laufey, (maybe there is some lingering sign of it on him, or there are records, or something) and that is why he could not move on, that helps pinpoint that event as the catalyst. And as i think on it, I think that must actually come after the hammer lift, that may be why he's talking to Jane in the first place. If Thor doesn't want to see him, she's the next best expert on worthyness available to him.

    btw. couple Disney+ show things. First off, this article is on the same track I was on earlier with Dario Agger https://www.esquireme.com/content/44...thor-character but i had failed to consider the casting revealed for the next movie, and I have to say Christian Bale would make a GREAT Agger, so i hope that pans out, and I hope he appears in the Loki show, as the Roxxon stuff seems to imply, but they're just keeping his involvement under wraps for now.

    and just some casting news, but no word on his role that I can see, and no guesses from me: https://screencrush.com/richard-e-gr...i-disney-plus/
    Last edited by Raye; 03-12-2020 at 08:17 PM.

  6. #171
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    Being worthy of that hammer isn't really about how good you are. I'm pretty sure Dr. Doom can lift it.

    And if Loki is worthy, it's because he hasn't stopped trying no matter what the universe has thrown at him.

    But if Loki is moving into Thor's spot, what else is there to being Thor? I mean, there's the hammer, but what else?

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    It is typically accompanied by being good, most of the time characters who can wield it are selfless and just... generally good. There are probably some oddballs in there that lifted it when 'worthy' was left vague and undefined, but now we do have at least the main part of the rules. So we have to assume that is at least part of it. Since being a worthy god, at least recently, is defined by helping people in need. Why it is impossible to be a truly worthy god is because it is impossible to help everyone who needs it, but to be worthy of Mjolnir you have to try to help as many as you can despite knowing that you will not be able to aid everyone, and thus are not truly worthy. Though Loki helps sometimes, it isn't really his focus to try to help people, it's not something he actively sets out to do, though he has been inching closer. One thing he has kept saying in all these guest appearances lately is that he is "just trying to help" so he is on the right path, but I think his motivations are still questionable.

    Being "Thor" as in the role is not just lifting the hammer, it is fulfilling the above of helping people, (with a specific focus on Midgard, which is why, though he can lift the hammer, I do not think Beta Ray Bill is right to fill the role) in addition to some other things, probably like bravery etc.

    I still think trying to do good is a key aspect, but something about it may have been tweaked to allow someone like Loki, who may not quite be there yet, to lift it. It may have shifted from a focus on individuals to like bigger picture, (which Loki is doing, or trying to, anyway) or something. Helping individuals or smaller groups (like a village being attacked by a dragon or whatever) was fine when the population of the planet could be counted in the millions, but with over 7 billion, nevermmind the rest of the galaxy let alone universe, the effect of that sort of method/thinking becomes less effective. The larger the population, the more people by necessity can not be helped, if you are focusing on the individual. So that way of doing things may have just become outdated over time. Sure, Thor does think on a larger scale sometimes, he is doing that right now, but frankly I think Loki is better at that kind of big picture thing, he is more suited to finding the root of a problem and tackling that rather than just dealing with the fallout. But it has to be balanced a bit more towards the idealistic than the pragmatic than I think Loki has done before.
    Last edited by Raye; 03-12-2020 at 09:47 PM.

  8. #173
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    Maybe a bit of humbleness helps being worthy, something Thor seems to have lost since he became king. Look how he talks to Sif and Bill. "I'm the king! I won't tolerate this!" "Asgard is MINE!" (that was a bit of a shock to me; I don't recall him ever being so possessive of his status or his land). He was never like this when he was worthy. This is how preSiege Loki would sound if he was in his place. But since, Loki has given up on craving that kind of power, and seems to be at peace with what he is and how he is, while still trying to better himself along the way. Which is similar to how Thor ended up at the end of WOTR, when he became worthy again.
    What I'm trying to say with my clumsy English, Mjölnir doesn't like arrogant power junkies.
    Last edited by Karabaja; 03-13-2020 at 01:50 AM.

  9. #174
    Spectacular Member Karabaja's Avatar
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    Or, could Mjölnir be changing its definition of worthiness because the All-father is now someone other than Odin, someone who thinks of wothiness differently than Odin before him? (And who's also not living up to it in his own eyes, therefore Mjölnir is getting heavier for him)

  10. #175
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    hmmmm.... I kinda like that idea, but it raises questions that need answers. Namely, we'd have to figure out what is a quality Thor would think wasn't 'worthy' that both Loki and Bill possess?

    I think the biggest difference between Thor and Loki, that could still end up checking the broad points, is that Loki is more proactive while Thor is reactive. This actually stems from his time as a villain, because villains are usually the ones who act, and then the heroes have to react to them and try to stop them, it's just that now Loki is trying to do good things rather than bad. But in any case, Thor waits for bad things to happen, or for someone to ask for his help, and then does something about it. Loki tries to anticipate what will be needed, or just has something he wants to accomplish, and then goes about arranging pieces to make sure everything is in place to deal with the problem he is anticipating. War of the Realms, though he did fail in some things, and I think this may lead to him altering the types of methods he employs, (doing fewer bad things that end up causing more harm if they fail to bring about the desired good outcome) he anticipated that the Avengers would be needed, so set about getting the team back together, and in such a way that they would have a dead Celestial as a base. He anticipated that magic working properly would be essential, so he set about fixing it, etc. Ok yeah he was reacting in the sense that he was operating on information that he had, but it's still way more proactive than what Thor usually does. And of course there will always be things that you simply can not anticipate happening and will need to be reacted to as they happen, but generally... But not sure how this could apply to Bill as well.

    And yeah, humbleness i think is part of the worthyness checklist, that's been a consistent theme with Thor stories and I think Loki was humbled some during WotR when some of his efforts to stop it failed, (even if he did manage to mitigate the damage some) he saw his limits, realized he can't just pull strings to make everything go his way, that he may need some help etc.

  11. #176
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    Loki definitely had to eat some humble pie after WotR. It wasn't just that his plan sort of fell apart, but then he was left in Laufey's stomach for, what? A week? Two weeks? Sure, Thor had a really bad time, but Loki was eaten alive on international TV.

    The thing for me is, if this is where we think it's going and it certainly seems that way, what other story beats does Loki have to fulfil to be Thor?

    With Loki, we know he is a shapeshifting, we know he is a trisker, we know he brings Ragnorak and kills Baldur, but what about Thor? Besides the hammer, of course.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post

    Being "Thor" as in the role is not just lifting the hammer, it is fulfilling the above of helping people, (with a specific focus on Midgard, which is why, though he can lift the hammer, I do not think Beta Ray Bill is right to fill the role) in addition to some other things, probably like bravery etc.
    Thor helps and protects people, his role is just being the hero. Beyond that, Loki can do what he likes, or go about things his own way as long as he is doing that. It's not so much about specific events, especially now that the Ragnarok Cycle is ended (I mean I think someone eventually will want to do Ragnarok yet again, but... Supposed to be done with in current canon) Loki is not going to replay Thor's life, any more than Sif will replay Heimdall's, or Jane will replay Brunnhilde's, etc. And all of them will also likely go about things in different ways, like I doubt Tyr will do a lot of trickster stuff cus that isn't his style, but he is looking like he may be stepping into Loki's role of antagonist, but he will likely use the same methods he always has mostly, to contrast against Loki's methods. The shapeshifting, trickster stuff etc are just methods, and Loki will probably keep those, because they are separate from the role, it's just an extension of his personality. At least I hope so, because I really am not interested in seeing all the characters just starting to act like someone else and replaying past events. Well, maybe if they got meta with it, but... The roles are broad, they are kinda just jobs or narrative roles. There are maybe a few other more specific details that come into play like having a traitorous brother that he has to fight, butting heads with the All-Father, or a trend towards having to learn lessons like humility, and one thing that OG Thor has, but Loki will have to work to earn, (assuming this lasts longer than an arc or two) is respect. But even there, there is room for him to do things his own way, and some twists on sort of similar situations.

    But I mean, there isn't really much to it at the core beyond just doing general hero stuff.
    Last edited by Raye; 03-13-2020 at 10:55 PM.

  13. #178
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Was thinking about this again this morning and wanted to clarify a couple things.

    OK, so I still think that as for what the 'Thor' role DOES, "help/protect people, specific focus on Midgard and Asgard" pretty much sums it up. But HOW Loki goes about that is likely to be different. Loki is at the moment what TV Tropes would call a Guile Hero, he solves problems primarily with his wits, while Thor is an Action Hero, solving problems primarily via violence, (there are exceptions for both of them, it's rare for characters to be 100% one thing all the time, but generally) and I don't see that changing. Guile Heroes are relatively rare compared to the ubiquitous (especially in Superheroes) Action Hero, but some notable examples (besides Loki) would be like, Tyrion Lannister, Bugs Bunny, Bilbo Baggins, and the OG, Odysseus. As far as Marvel goes, there are very few, but Iron Man, Black Panther, Black Widow, Dr Strange, Squirrel Girl, Nick Fury (especially in the movies), and Professor X all have at least strong elements of this, though many of them tend to more strongly fit other archetypes, the one that fits best right now, besides Loki, is actually Sunspot, particularly when being written by Hickman or Ewing. (In fact, I have a suspicion that Sunspot was used as a substitute for Loki in USAvengers/New Avengers, because having Loki on an Avengers team before, like, nowish, would have conflicted with Aaron's plans.) Anyway, they empoy different methods, but can still accomplish the same basic thing.

    I do think there are some similarities and/or callback elements that are present, or are likely to be used in the future, but I also think these are vague, and don't necessarily have to happen in exactly the same way as they did with Thor.

    -Royalty.
    -Will butt heads with the All-Father, who will be pissed off that he's not doing things the way he would, and feels they spend too much time focusing on Midgard rather than royal duties (we already saw this in Loki's solo)
    -Has a history of arrogance and pride, which he will need to learn to temper.
    -...but that masks issues of self doubt.
    -Most likely will have an arch-enemy who does not think Loki is worthy of the position, and tries to undermine him, likely a family member. Probably Tyr if Valkyrie is anything to go by, but we will see what happens in the main Thor book.


    But I do not think specific events will be recreated, at least not beyond a very vague way. Though the arch-enemy may have an incident that cements him as a bad guy for the foreseeable future, in the same way that Loki killing Balder did for him, I don't think it will actually be literally killing Balder again, it may not even be a murder at all. It just has to be something bad that signals to everyone that he's crossed the line, is not to be trusted, and is doing bad things. I suspect Ragnarok, and all the events leading up to it, is done, it was restricted to that particular group of characters in those particular roles, and while this new group may have their own big destructive event that serves vaguely the same purpose (kinda like WotR did, it was not technically Ragnarok, but it checked many of the same boxes) may even become cyclical with time, and yeah, the arch-enemy/Tye may set it in motion, I do not think it will play out in exactly the same way.

  14. #179
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    So it looks like the corovirus has shut down the production for the Loki show

    I know it needs to be done, but damn you, evil virus! Damn you!

  15. #180
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well that sucks, but I guess this was going to happen to a lot of productions, especially after Tom Hanks. Definitely hitting closer to home now, my sister and her family are in quarantine right now, (her husband travels a lot for work, and someone in his office tested positive) so...

    I decided to check Donny Cates' twitter, since i haven't looked at it in a while, and was curious if he had anything to say about the most recent issue and Loki, but this was the only tweet about the recent issue: https://mobile.twitter.com/Doncates/...89251439169536 and it did not say anything about Loki, but in the replies, oooooh, Steve is gonna be maaaad. Don't care though. Cates did retweet a Strange Academy post though, so I am choosing to take that as confirmation that Loki is going to be showing up there some more,

    Honestly the whole thing with Loki last issue isn't getting as much attention as i thought it would, but in a way this does not surprise me, because I think some people are no taking it seriously, it may take a while for it to sink in.

    Had a shower thought just now though about what i said above, about the roles and stuff... got to thinking, though Tyr has been dead a while, i guess if things are sort of starting from the beginning, it may be that his role has to be filled again, but with Tyr apparently going off the rails, can't just be him again. but thinking on it, I mean, it's probably Angela, she's just the right sort of personality to do the whole goddess of war thing. But a bit more distressingly, I then got to thinking about the Bad Thing that Tyr will probably end up doing if he is slated to take Loki's place.... It may just be this thing he's doing in Valkyrie, sure, but I kinda think the incident will happen in the Thor book proper, and part of the reason Loki killing Balder was like, the last straw, was because it was family, it was personal. so... Balder is now the Norn King so he's got his own role that likely gives him a degree of protection, Angela is likely taking Tyr's place, Thor and Loki are in their own roles.... will he kill Laussa? After her ordeal during WotR, it kind of stands to reason that Freyja may want to offer her additional protection, much the same way she tried to protect Balder way back when, so... We never see Laussa in any of the visions of the future we've seen.

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