Loki Appreciation 2020

[Karabaja]

I second that.
I really, really hope we won't see a decade of character build-up down the drain.

[Raye]

Whatever mistreatment Loki suffered as a child from his family and Asgardians by extension, was likely failing to meet levels of expectations, being ridiculed for it. It may not have been out of malice but I'm sure it was no less hurtful to a child from a culture so quite unlike his adoptive home. What may have been done unintentionally at first likely intensified the older he grew and it became more evident just how different he was to everyone around him. If it continued unabated, Loki was bound to feel some type of way about it and form a narrative that not only isolated him but fueled his rage and resentment for not meeting the standard and equating his childhood to something akin to abusive. Loki is a little sh*t on a good day and something wretched and despicable on his worst. I think by the time he started acting out any goodwill Thor may have had for his brother would never have been received well or even thought of as genuine. And Thor ran out of patience and reciprocated all of Loki's vileness with acts of violence (the only thing he knows to do). I can imagine that reinforcing the anger and resentment. Was he abused, I don't think so but did he feel he was, sure.

I think the issue now, at least for me, is that before Siege, it was expected and even encouraged for Thor to beat up Loki because he had it coming. However, everything that has come after that is now making it difficult to accept Thor beating up Loki (because he can) when we know he's not simply doing horrible things for the sake of being horrible. We now see Loki turn a page for the better (he's not there yet), at least trying to have an amicable relationship with his brother, being rebuffed is one thing (because of all the lies) but having a hammer thrown in his face, for me, no longer sits well with me at all. And regressing Loki's development and have him play mustache twirling villain to Thor's superheroing doesn't do it for me any more either, especially if it serves to have Thor beat up his brother constantly. It puts me off completely. I have always hoped for them to grow back to being brothers (on somewhat good terms) again but if I can't have that, then please stop it with the antagonism and if I can't have even that, then keep Loki away from Thor's stories as they do a disservice to his growth since JiM.

Just to be clear though, ridicule and such is still bullying, it didn't have to be physical to be hurtful. Though I suspect there was some of that personally. but I think some of it was directed and intentional, at least, not just a vague feeling of not fitting in. But we won't know unless they do a flashback. But I dunno, it's hard to make calls based on Thor's current actions, because for a long time Loki has given him ample reason to dislike him, so his behaviour towards Loki now may not reflect his behaviour back then. Or it might, it's just hard to make that call.

After Siege, there were some times where I felt it was justified, when he found out about Kid Loki, and from Thor's perspective, it probably did appear Loki was just getting up to his old villainous ways at points, even if we as readers knew he was doing things to get a good outcome. But this time feels strange, because it had seemed like they were mending things, both in Loki's solo and even in Aaron's run. Rockier in Aaron's stuff, sure, but Thor and Loki worked well together in Hel, even if things got started there under not the best circumstances. And then in Loki's solo they seemed downright friendly with each other. So for him to turn around and threaten Loki and drive a wedge between them, making him bow, the hammer. when, seriously, Loki seemed like he just wanted to talk for no other reason than because they were brothers, he accomplished nothing aside from piss Thor off, but with stuff that should have cused minor annoyance at best (well, asking about the hammer a bit more, but Thor had already been a dick at that point) what does that accomplish? Sure he may have been trying to accomplish something, but got blocked, I know Loki often has ulterior motives, but what could he have been hoping to achieve there, really, by asking how it felt to sit on the throne and talking about how Thor isn't so hot at being all royal? If he had an agenda there, he gave up on it awfully quick. He was just... chatting. That's the kind of stuff a brother would say, and given that things had been friendlier between them recently, Thor's reaction was extreme.

Anyway, as I said in the previous thread, I really don't want them to go back to antagonists, especially if it means reverting Loki. I want things move forward, not backwards. I am hoping we are just getting some of the usual new-run oddness, where they are trying to set the stage for people who are kinda jumping on after missing stuff. So they are antagonistic to start, even if it conflicts with Loki's solo and stuff, because that's what people expect, and that they will end up working together by the end of it. I know they already have kinda made up, but if someone is coming into this with just the basic idea of Thor and Loki in mind, then antagonistic would make more sense to most people, i guess. As long as it doesn't keep going down that path, i will be ok with it. Cus yeah, i think that's just kinda done now, with all that Loki in particular has been through.

[Karabaja]

In Hel, Thor trusted Loki with his life and told him that he loved him. Even if Loki's mini is completely ignored, that's where they Aaron more or less left them, so this change of attitude really seems to come out of nowhere.

[Raye]

yeah, Thor placed an enormous amount of trust in Loki, and Loki came through. Though at the end, when Loki was like 'I'm outta here' (even tho Thor wanted him to stay!) they instantly thought he had stolen a weapon, when he had in fact just taken a picture, so... But like i said, hoping this is just a sort of shorthand for a new run, and things will get ironed out (again) by the end of the arc

[DragonsRazor]

I enjoyed the issue however I felt bad for Loki because it did seem like he just wanted to talk but Thor just went to the extremes with the threats and was a pure jerk. It didn’t help that Thor was already grumpy, tired, irritated and on top of that nervous too, so Loki pointing out the stuff about him being nervous, starting on how a king should act and about Mjolnir getting heavy just made him snap. There’s some understanding but it doesn’t justify that Thor went too far especially in tossing his hammer at him when all Loki was doing was being worried in showing concern. Which is nice on Loki’s part considering Thor made him mad by having him bow just seconds ago. So, under normal circumstances maybe the situation might’ve turned different but, in this case, it ended up hostile. I hope it does get smoothed over near the end too which I’m sure it will maybe things have to start off rough for it to get better I was still surprised how hostile Thor was though. But one good thing is we don’t have to wait long to see what happens next and as far as we’ve seen there hasn’t been any hints at Loki making a face turn yet.
On the topic of Loki being bullied I got the hint when Thor in AoA mentions that he was a bully to Loki when they were younger, that and all the other implications already talked about. Despite him being bullied and everything else in that one WotR war scrolls mini it showed that he did have at least some happy moments.

[Prof. Aegis]

I just read Thor 1 by Cates. What I got out of it was an angry Thor that didn't want to admit his "weaknesses" and he already didn't want to be king. His toxic leadership style of demanding the other Heralds to tell him what's going on and to demand Loki to bow and to tell him to not come back till summoned are all marks of a controlling leader who needs to show his power to maintain control. It's all back to force and power to rule. What I thought Thor had moved passed by the end of Aaron's run. And yeah his relationship with Loki had taken a turn for the better. They were both kings of their realms and more of equals. Now it seems Loki is a bother and nuisance.

Yet Loki, while maybe being more direct and with a bit of Loki swagger, was trying to connect with his brother, Thor just slams him down and once again makes him feel less than worthy of his attention and their relationship. I don't see Loki as the bad one, but Thor. Yes, Thor maybe worried and concerned about Mjolnir and of being King, but to be such a controlling and demanding ruler, not leader, is bad form for Thor. And does not make me seem him as the compassionate and caring leader he needs to be, but the ruler by way of hammer and thunder to control his people. I'm curious as to where these next few issues will go, but as of right not, I'm not liking the personality and behavior of Thor and his attitude toward Loki. But we will see.

[Raye]

Donny Cates was on Stegman's podcast again: http://stegmanandfriends.com/e/venom...ow-and-laters/

They actually spend most of it talking Star Wars, but they do get into Thor at the end. A lot of it isn't related to Loki, he spends a lot of time kinda going off about how everyone thinks the Black Winter is related ot Knull (it isn't) and how he wanted to do the new costume and stuff to kind of make a statement that it was his Thor rather than Aaron's (tho he was a very big fan of his run and says he will be keeping other aspects of that in place) but at one point he is asked if Loki will have a part to play, and that he think Cates would do a killer Loki. to which Cates replies that he HAS written Loki, in Dr Strange, and that it's nice to go back to write him again now, that he is a really fun character to write. And he says that with the new dynamic of Loki and Thor is fun because they are both kings, and that they are in peace time but normally they would be 'warring kings'. and he says that the scene which we have endlessly been picking apart was actually his favorite scene of the issue. He says that Loki just knows what to say to dig at him and piss him off, but that this is maybe not the Thor you should poke at, because he might literally have your head cut off, and like "now I'm at war with Jotunheim, good, I was bored anyway" kinda thing which is... yeah... anyway, he says that "hell yeah" Loki will show up more, and he has plans further on with arcs down the road with lots of Loki.

Overall it sounds like his Thor is going to skew towards being brutal and aggressive, which, yeah would lead to a fairly toxic style of leadership as Prof. Aegis says, and I think is what is giving off the Odin 2.0 vibe. He also said that Sif would be the character that would be telling Thor the hard truths he needs to hear, but may not like, which, while it does make sense, is kind of what I was hoping for from Loki, and is kind of what i saw in the interaction between them, except Thor wasn't willing to listen. But Cates seemed to be coming from the angle that Loki was intentionally just trying to piss off Thor, (even though I could see what Loki said coming from, say, Balder, and it wouldn't seem out of place) so... we may not be getting Thor and Loki being friends. :-/ That he referred to Thor and Loki as 'warring kings' is also kind of troubling to me, I really don't want them fighting, YET AGAIN. I'm just, so over that. But it sounds like Thor may be the aggressor if it does happen, which s at least a bit of a different twist, but still not one I particularly want to see.

and oh yeah, I remember that scene in AoA, and that was from Thor, too, because he was apologizing for how how he'd treated him when they were children, so no lies.

[Karabaja]

I'll be disappointed if Thor and Loki are enemies once again. but as long as Loki isn't back to full blown villainy, I'm still in. If he turns heel again, I'm giving up.

[DragonsRazor]

He sounds like he’s really into their dynamic and I’m happy that there’s going to be plenty of Loki. Him writing Thor as someone who lashes out when they’re insecure explains why he lashed out at Loki. I hope they don’t become enemies and I don’t think they will but I’m sure they’re going to butt heads a bit because siblings do that. Rereading I guess you could say Loki was being annoying and pushing Thors buttons at first with Thor already not being in the mood but he definitely dropped it after being told to bow then he was just curious and worried. I didn’t see him as purposely trying to piss him off though even after reading the directors cut. Like if one of my younger siblings talked to me that way, I’d probably be annoyed but not to that extreme. After hearing that Thor's still learning, that he’s gonna **** up and he’s not super good at being king right now then Thor will get better at it and hopefully in turn have a better relationship with his brother. Because I agree his style of leadership is pretty toxic right now and if your trying to keep peace among the realms and be a leader you shouldn't be acting this way towards people. It seems at least to me he was just mentioning that if they weren’t at peace time that they would be warring kings however I’d rather they not go at each other like that and try to be at least mutual despite their history.

[Karabaja]

There it is. It's just a mention, but still.

[Rosebunse]

I've said it before and I'll say jt again, but I think it's real easy to have learned your lesson and start on a new path until you're hit with stress and every day problems.

So I can totally see some of Thor's characterization taking a bit of a back slide. It's hard to keep that change every single day.

And I actually do agree with Cates when it comes to Sif. Loki is Thor's brother, but even at the best of times, their relationship is a bit strained from all the crap that's happened. And frankly, the potential for violence is always there. The two of them can and will attack each other.

Thor is simply not going to physically harm Sif. Maybe in a playful spar or friendly match, but Thor would never going after Sif the way he does Loki, even if he was upset with her. Her own new powers make her a very interesting development; he can't lie to her, he can't hurt her, and with her new role, he can't exactly get rid of her without crippling Asgard.

[Prof. Aegis]

I've said it before and I'll say jt again, but I think it's real easy to have learned your lesson and start on a new path until you're hit with stress and every day problems.

So I can totally see some of Thor's characterization taking a bit of a back slide. It's hard to keep that change every single day.

And I actually do agree with Cates when it comes to Sif. Loki is Thor's brother, but even at the best of times, their relationship is a bit strained from all the crap that's happened. And frankly, the potential for violence is always there. The two of them can and will attack each other.

Thor is simply not going to physically harm Sif. Maybe in a playful spar or friendly match, but Thor would never going after Sif the way he does Loki, even if he was upset with her. Her own new powers make her a very interesting development; he can't lie to her, he can't hurt her, and with her new role, he can't exactly get rid of her without crippling Asgard.

Rosebunse, I agree that a true test of change is how one acts and behaves when confronted with those stressors that caused their negative behaviors before. Currently it seems that Thor is behaving as he has done in the past, in his use of strength and anger to get what he wants. It will be telling to see if that changes over the course of the story. However, based upon what Raye wrote up from the interview, this is Cates Thor. And his seems to run the course of the brutish and warrior Thor. Even to the point that Cates will have Thor and Loki fight between their kingdoms.

It'll be interesting to see what developments, if any, Cates creates with Loki, or if he just uses him as a focus for Thor's rage.

[Raye]

Yeah, I think Cates' take on Thor is just generally more aggressive. And I don't know if Jotunheim and Asgard will fight, but it is looking likely that there will be tensions at the very least. Which does make me worry a bit about what I said before, about how when Cates had Loki before, he didn't really have a say about how he was portrayed, he was kind of obligated to just stick to how he was being portrayed in Thor etc. But with how he's talking about Thor here, he's making it clear that he's going to do his own take on the characters and not stick TOO closely to what came immediately prior, so if he's doing this with Thor, what does he have planned for Loki? Especially with Loki's book being cancelled, and it's definitely looking more and more like that was because it would have clashed with what Cates was doing, and clashing more than I would have initially thought, even.

That being said, I really don't think his way of doing things can possibly lead any place good, it's likely going to lead to war of some kind, and he may learn a lesson from that, one could hope. But right now, he's very 'me' focused, very aggressive, it doesn't seem like he's out to make peace with the realms through diplomacy but through threats and acting tough... oh.... no.... What if he's Trump? Asgard = USA, Jotunheim = well, pick a country, Cates would have been planning his story since before the recent thing with Iran happened, but it fits. What if he's taking on American exceptionalism (the more modern version f it anyway, where it's more about asserting superiority over other countries, and like they are somehow immune from the international standards and rules that govern other countries) and how they act and think like they are the good guys, even when they're often not, they're just the most powerful and throwing their weight around.... (on a political level, i mean. know lots of very nice and good Americans) Saying 'don't do war or else, even if I do something shitty to you' really isn't likely to work long term, it will just create a lot of resentment and anger which more than likely boil over at some point. I'm not saying this doesn't have story potential, the more i thin about it the more i can see how it could fit, and how you could say something with the story. I just was really kind of more interested in the characters right now than making a statement. though this is not based on much right now, just saying, I think it could easily fit.

There it is. It's just a mention, but still.

Hah, why didn't i remember that right from the start, that would have saved so much trouble, lol. but i knew I wasn't pulling it out of my ass.

[Karabaja]

I feel like many Thor fans were unhappy about Aaron's portrayal of him and saw him as being turned into an insecure loser, so now Cates is trying to do the opposite and show him as a ruthless, no-nonsense type of leader. Which is again another extreme and I don't like it. It woukd go well with young Thor, but at this point he really should be wiser, mature and in control. Nothing speaks insecurity more than a person who yells "I'm big bad powerful and you all fear me and obey me". As an internet meme says, a lion doesn't have to tell you it's a lion. That's exactly how Loki was before, and I still feel like that might turn out to be the reason why Mjolnir gets heavier for Thor (again).

[Prof. Aegis]

I agree. With all that Thor has gone through with Aaron and previous writers since JMS, I would think he would be more wiser, mature and in control. He's supposed to be a leader, no longer the blunt force. But it does seem that Cates is moving him back to the other side of the scale and bringing back the force and power. Especially since he is now being powered up by Galactus.

Raye, that's a good theory on the story points. Perhaps it will be paralleling American government actions and perceptions from other realms. I know we're pulling a lot from one issue, but based upon past behaviors and story beats, this could be the case. I'm sure the next several issues will help to bring that to light more. Although, already I'm wondering how somethings will work. Thor goes off with Galactus to battle the Black Winter, which is what he really wants anyway. Who will be overseeing Asgard and the realms while he is gone? Will that be addressed? Will we just fly with Thor? And yeah, how will Loki fit with this. The Black Winter story seems like a big story and not just a 4 issue romp.

When Thor said to Loki "begone till you are summoned" (paraphrasing), my first thought was, well that's one way to move Loki out of the story till he's needed. And wonder if we'll see him during this storyline or if he'll be more prominent in the next one?