Loki Appreciation 2020

[Raye]

Don't feel like you need to drop it, I like talking like this, and with no new comics, what else we gonna talk about?

And I guess what I'd say to that, is yeah, I do think they are kinda soulmates, and that may make Zelma (or whoever else) feel like kind of a third wheel, but, first, the same maybe could have happened with a guy. Like, I would definitely say a lot of same sex platonic friendships you see both in real life and in fiction have that sort of soulmate aspect, but there is no expectation there that it become romantic, and it's just kind of dealt with in terms of the romantic partner(s) of the Platonic Life Partners. And secondly, as for the drama that may cause.... While I know we may think we want things to go super smoothly for our fave characters, a bit of drama helps keep the story interesting. It may complicate things for Loki, but will make the story more interesting for us to read. I don't want it to become mired in drama, but a bit of jealousy or weirdness about having to share Loki's attention could lead to some interesting story beats.

I mean, same deal with Thor in, er, Thor. On the one hand, as a fan who wants the brothers to get along, it was disappointing to see Thor chuck Mjolnir at Loki's face, when he was doing nothing wrong, (and Bill and Sif, and whoever else he may throw it at next, maybe his mom at this rate) but I also recognize that if things always went smoothly between them, it wouldn't be as interesting. But I do still have hope that they can work things out, and think they can, once Thor gets over what he's going through.

Very tangentially related, but that is also kind of why I keep hoping for this 'roles' thing to play out the way it seems like it might. I actually don't think that the whole 'roles' hierarchy thing is a GOOD system for them as characters, even if Loki does land a good role this time around. I think it's suffocating, it downplays or even negates free will and character agency, it might lead to characters acting in ways they don't like, especially Tyr this time around, but that goes for all of them, just acting in a way that doesn't seem to fit their inner selves. Like how Loki seemed to feel he was forced to fill a certain role in the leadup to WotR. Just, the characters are not free to be their authentic selves because they are shackled to this system that they are unable to escape from. BUT, I think that conflict and the restrictions it imposes is exactly why it could be interesting. Whether they become aware of this system or not, if they recognize that they are being pulled down a path they would not have actually chosen for themselves, that creates some interesting inner conflict. and if they do become aware of the system, then you could get into existential questions, meta stuff, and a debate over whether it would be better if the system stay in place for the good of the universe, despite the cost it takes from the characters locked to the system, or if it would be better for the characters to try and dismantle it so they can be free. Or is the hierarchy and the roles it supports more important than their personal happiness? when you think about it, it really makes sense why Loki may have landed the central role this time, because these exact questions have been plaguing him for the past 10 years, since his entire motivation for all of that always boiled down to trying to change his role in one way or another, but he couldn't, at least not fully. He could change his inner self, but the role kept trying to force him down a different path in terms of his actions. It just was never quite explained why it never worked until now, just kind of hinted at, and now it looks like we (and he) may be getting answers.

[Karabaja]

I'd like to see how Those who sit in shadows fit into all that now, if at all. If I remember right, the whole Ragnarok cyclic thing, and maybe the role thing too?, was their doing. Both Thor and Loki kicked their asses, one at the time. I'd love to see them join forces aigainst their fatemakers again.

[Raye]

Well, if the ending of Agent of Asgard meant anything, then those Who sit Above in Shadow have no real power, it's sort of a mirage, which may be the same for the Asgardians themselves in relation to humans. Like, they exist and can do things and in that sense they have power, but they exist and fill the roles they do because of belief, they're just filling another role in the story, just one dreamed up by the Asgardians themselves rather than humans. Of course, none of the Asgardians besides Loki have figured this out, so they could still come into play.

But like i said a few times before, the roles are narrative roles, they function in the same way as character roles in fiction, because that's exactly what they are, it's just that the story has taken physical living breathing form in the MU, and apparently the roles can change hands, so it's kind of more like a role in a play, with the role holders putting on a performance of a story, even if they aren't actually aware that this is what they are doing. Loki could not become the God of Stories because humans or whatever is in charge have no role for that in the story they created for the gods, and Loki can't force that, it's something beyond his control except as far as he can change opinions about himself in the eyes of others. And of course the people of the MU are sort of a reflection of the readers, to an extent, so that's where the meta aspect comes in. Though in-universe, they lack some of the insight we have, so may come to a some different conclusions. Like, we see motivations, but they only see actions, so some subtle but important differences between the in universe and out of universe observers. And their influence only extends to the gods, not like, Wolverine and Captian America, unlike the readers. Loki was right that stories have power, but he was wrong that he could take control of that narrative himself. The thing that has power is the stories themselves, and how people perceive him, and that's what likely shapes the roles. that's why it was so incredibly risky to do what he did during WotR, because all that did was reinforce negative beliefs about him, and why I think it is important that he get Mjolnir, since that is a way to demonstrate to people that he's a good guy now, he's got to perform the role in order to change, it but the role he's in also influences things, so it's a catch 22.

The real question is who is creating the story. Is there some higher being in charge of the stories as a mirror to the writers? (it's definitely been implied before, most notably in FF) Or is it something that's just born of people's collective minds? Or a combination of the two? Well there was the Teller in JIM, which tried to devour Loki's story in JIM, but was stopped by Thor, and said it would watch and claim it's debt. (and did so, when Kid Loki died) A lot of his dialogue (just re-read it) definitely seems to imply they were related to destiny. But the Children of Eternity seemed to have control over the story as well, since they guaranteed Loki he could die a hero. Since they are more recent, an the Teller came across as more like a demon, I think Now and Then and the House of Ideas may be more likely at the moment, or they may be tied to the Teller somehow, and we just never got to that reveal. If there is something higher controlling things, this could actually be good for Loki, and the rest of the Asgardians, because then they can nudge the gods into new roles before the general public can come to a consensus on what their role is, and it also means there is something that can be, in theory, beaten. Like none of this has been put to page, but what makes the most sense to me is that there is some kind of primordial universal force, it may be the Children of Eternity and the House of Ideas, that are calling the shots, and writing out the details of the gods lives, but they themselves are influenced by the people's beliefs. so they write things that generally conform with the peoples broad beliefs. But the ones who sit above the story are still needed because while the people may be able to come to a vague agreement, they will always disagree on details (see: literally any fandom) and need someone to refine that into something with structure and direction (the writers). but I dunno it's all very vague and out there right now.

(ok done editing now, just, this is kinda heady territory, hard to explain. It makes sense in my head....)

[Karabaja]

Great, now my head hurts
And I suddenly have this idea of Loki and Deadpool going to change their destinies by literally breaking the fourth wall and entering our world so they could reshape their stories in their own. Deadpool has already kinda done that, though it's probably not canon for 616.

[Raye]

hehehe, I know, like i said, makes sense in my head! but yeah, I know, it's weird. Like, have you read/watched American Gods? It's kinda like that, I guess. Except rather than whole new gods popping into existence when people's ideas about the gods evolve and change, new people who have the right qualities step into the previous one's place. Assuming I am right, they will have a lot more room to explain it, complete with visual aid, and will presumably do a better job of it.

As for Deadpool, it's weird, because though Loki has broken the 4th wall on occasion, they break it in a much different way most of the time. Deadpool addresses the writers and audience directly, often by name, and is fully aware he is in a comic book specifically (and the same goes for Gwenpool) when he does break the 4th wall. But Loki, well first of all he does it a lot less frequently, but when he does, seems to be breaking the 4th wall of the in universe narrative, if that makes sense? He's become aware of the whole story aspect of the gods and the MU to a degree that the others are not, and can use that to his advantage at times, even going back to JIM. But it's all still contained within the story we in the real world are reading, because there are two narratives at work here, the one we are reading, and the one that is governing the lives of the gods within that, and that is the narrative he's manipulating, not the one we are reading. But it has also been a bit inconsistent at times, in that regard.

[Karabaja]

Aaand the headache intensifies

Speaking of Deadpool...other that that one time when Loki was still super evil and gave Wade the curse of pretty face, those two didn't get the chance to interact much. I'm not sure if they would make a great team, considering how many things they have in common, or would that be an epic disaster (again, considering how much they have in common).

[Pallux]

Man I'd love some Deadpool and Loki interaction. Whether they get along or not at least it's gotta be funny, right? I remember semi-seriously fantasizing about a Deadpool-Loki-Gambit comic bc here we have 3 fun characters who won't shut their damn mouths. But then Deadpool v. Gambit happened and it was... not exactly what I'd have asked for lol.

To go back to the Zelma "vs" Verity thing one more time: I've also been looking at it as if Verity and Loki are soulmates of a sort. And I've been thinking this for a long time, when it comes to the potential filling-Thor's-role thing, I wouldn't mind Loki's "Jane" to be Verity, an in this case platonic relationship that keeps him coming back to earth. Of course if Loki/Zelma or Loki/any Midgardian becomes a capital T Thing, that would potentially cause some "you spend all your time with her" drama. But I think it could easily be balanced. It's not as if it's uncommon to have both a best friend and a partner, right?


EDIT: btw Raye, I'm just absolutely in love with that Amigo The Devil stuff you posted a while back, especially that Cocaine and Abel performance. Thanks so much for sharing! And ofc the lyrics are perfect for Loki.

[Lambadelta]

I think you can have more than one soul mate but not more than one soul mate of the same type. For example, I see Verity as his soul mate but his platonic soul mate while maybe Zelma will be his romantic soul mate. That is just how I see it though. But either way you can have both a love life and still be awfully close to your best friend at the same time. I also think Verity and Zelma would get on great.

About the pull to earth thing though. Does Loki actually need it? I mean he is already quite attracted to earth as it is. I think if Loki had the choice, he would probably spend more time on earth eating bacon and hotdogs and spending his time with Verity or in Casinos than anywhere else at the moment.

I would love a Deadpool-Loki team up, but it’s got to be done in a comical way. I think these two characters would produce a really funny one time comic that would ultimately end in disaster since as already pointed out, they are two remarkably similar characters.

On the 4th wall thing. I think Loki is aware of the 4th wall, as in our 4th wall but he’s only aware, unlike Deadpool or Gwenpool he can’t break that 4th wall but he can break the 4th wall in the story setting itself. I hope that made sense.

[Pallux]

I think you can have more than one soul mate but not more than one soul mate of the same type. For example, I see Verity as his soul mate but his platonic soul mate while maybe Zelma will be his romantic soul mate. That is just how I see it though. But either way you can have both a love life and still be awfully close to your best friend at the same time. I also think Verity and Zelma would get on great.

yeah also I really like this multiple soulmates concept. (I mean not that I'm very strict or literal when it comes to soulmates stuff in the first place but still) AND I was actually gonna say in my previous post how it'd be cool if Verity and Zelma/whoever would get along and hang out while Loki is off kinging or whatever but then I deleted it haha. I can def see these two appreciating each other.

About the pull to earth thing though. Does Loki actually need it? I mean he is already quite attracted to earth as it is. I think if Loki had the choice, he would probably spend more time on earth eating bacon and hotdogs and spending his time with Verity or in Casinos than anywhere else at the moment.

I agree actually. IF this whole role filling business is happening and IF having a "Jane" is required to hit the Thor story beats, it's fun to theorize who it'll be though. (Could also maybe be more than one person? As in "bonds with humanity" is what counts here and not it being a Person? idk could be cool). Thinking of it, I don't actually know enough about early Thor to know for sure he wouldn't have loved earth anyway without Jane?

[Pallux]

btw, some more sketchbook Lokis

[Raye]

Heh, cute!

and yeah Amigo the Devil is amazing, just stumbled across him on youtube at random a while back and have since listened to everything he's done, he's great.


As for the Deadpool and Loki stuff, yeah, the Gambit and Deadpool thing was not what I had hoped for, but we did also have this:



And Loki was in Deadpool's Art of War in a really prominent role, BUT, though it happened more recently it was old-school Loki because Deadpool was like 'I can't make use of this kid' so he broke the 4th wall and pulled classic Loki into things.


(Ironically, Art of War is by Peter David, who went on that big rant against the illusion of change)

I don't think modern Loki and Deadpool have had much to do with each other on panel, they were both technically on the same team during Axis, but I don't think they really spoke to each other on panel.

I agree actually. IF this whole role filling business is happening and IF having a "Jane" is required to hit the Thor story beats, it's fun to theorize who it'll be though. (Could also maybe be more than one person? As in "bonds with humanity" is what counts here and not it being a Person? idk could be cool). Thinking of it, I don't actually know enough about early Thor to know for sure he wouldn't have loved earth anyway without Jane?

I don't think Loki or Thor ever really needed a person to bring them to Earth, in Aaron's run, we spent a lot of time with pre-worthy Thor, and while the timeline there is fuzzy, pretty sure a lot of it happened prior to him meeting Erika (his first 'Jane') and in fact Erika came about because Odin was frustrated with how much time Thor was spending on Midgard. BUT I think that though both Thor and Loki would continue to hang out on Earth without a relationship with some mortal pulling them there, having their motivation being (at least in part) 'I want to go to/protect Midgard because a person i love is there' is more compelling than 'going to Midgard is fun.' And like, the story with Erika showed that Thor's relationship with her helped him understand mortals better, and made him value their lives more, even if he was totally down for adventures on Midgard even without her, and I think the same could hold true for Loki with Verity and/or Zelma. Loki previously saw humans as little more than game pieces to be toyed with, and i think it is his relationship with Verity and later Zelma that helped him realize that their lives had value. (well, I think he first started to realize this with the Young Avengers as well, but...) That he did save Zelma's life (and Verity's before that, thankfully, though it was uncertain there for a while) rather than just rip out the spell and let her die, as Strange feared he would do, demonstrated that he valued her as an individual, he would not have done that before.

[Pallux]

Okay it got a laugh out of me that Deadpool's reason for not using BodySnatcherLoki is "I can't operate under these conditions" lmao

BTW I've been meaning to say. Even though I'm still absolutely mourning Loki's solo, I think it will actually be better for Loki in the long term for his story to be happening in Thor right now. (If we can assume they're good things that are happening.) These past years have just been so draining lol constantly seeing people not be aware of/accept his face turn. Not helped of course by the fact that his appearances tended to have this BUT CAN WE REALLY TRUST THIS NON-VILLAINOUS BEHAVIOUR flavour to them. And with the misleading covers and solicits and everything. idk how much influence that sort of out-of-universe reputation actually has on the security of a new direction, but it made me much more worried nonetheless. Either way, if this phase of Loki's story is going to add to solidifying his face turn, it'll do a lot for Loki's reputation if it happens in another character's more popular book than in a more niche solo. At this stage.


(EDIT: also general agreement @ the other stuff you wrote)

[Raye]

Yeah, in the long run, I think it's better this all go down in Thor's book, assuming we're on the right track here. Just so it gets seen by more people, and has a higher profile. But I have faith in Cates, he did well with Loki last time. Same reason I am keen on him joining the Avengers, even though I'm not too hot on the book itself right now. But yeah, most of the turn has happened in the kinda side books, which, just judging by the difference in sales numbers, a good chunk of readers probably didn't read, so... I mean, some happened in Aaron's run, but it was like, he played it a bit too close to the vest there, and if you hadn't been following Loki's story up until then, you probably would not have really gotten that he was doing a double agent kinda thing until his spotlight issue towards the end of the run, maybe a bit with the Hel arc. Like, it kinda needs more than a couple scattered issues, even if they were pretty good ones. And then you add in the usual fan cynicism because lasting change is pretty rare (but not unheard of!) so even some that do know the situation are just like 'it will never last' to absolutely anything that happens. And to be fair, that is often true, but... I think the foundations of this change run so deep that we've reached a point where you need more justification to undo the turn than you would to move him in a more heroic direction, even if some readers don't realize that due to not, like, reading a lot of it. So I think to get it to really sink it, we may need a bit of a recap of some key moments, as well. Show people how he got from point A to point B, even if they had not read JIM onward. I think us having to sit through some stuff we already know is worth it for that.

And afterwards, we can have another go at a solo, maybe! And the story in Thor could give it a bit of a boost, assuming it's good and sets up an interesting status quo.

[Fanto.mx]

I can definitely see how bringing Those Who Sit Above in Shadow in a story about fulfilling archetypal roles would make sense, but honestly, I think it may have been too long and they probably were too minor in the greater scheme of the story to be brought back. Then again, frickin' Molecule Man was the hinge point for an entire huge crossover, so it's a little hard to predict.

I do think that having a mirror group might be useful when trying to explore the boundaries of belief- or story-based archetypes, but just as easily the could cloud the water, since you would have to really clearly establish differences and similarities, requiring twice as many things to keep track of. On the other hand, that might be exactly what you need for a long-term deep dive.

But back to the points about the type of narrative roles we're pointing at, I think it might be useful to think of them as archetypes, rather than roles? Like Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Shadow Moon, and Marty McFly all fulfill the same archetype, but they're not really all that similar in how they fill that role.

[Raye]

Those Who Sit Above in Shadow have been a part of the Thor stories for a long time, though, even if they fell out of use for a while there, so I could see why they may want to bring them in. But it kind of also feels like it might be using old continuity more to tie up random loose ends and to appease the people who care more about the minutia of continuity fitting together in an airtight way than they do about just a good story. But I could see it if they are setting up a new Ragnarok Cycle kinda deal, tho maybe not actually called Ragnarok this time, just some cataclysmic event that comes in cycles. Could be the Black Winter, could be the Rokkva, (tho since everyone only JUST took their new places for the most part, it feels too soon for it to be those, but they couple play a part) or something else, with a new cast of characters to face it, and new parts to play in that event, then I could see them bringing Those Who Sit Above in Shadow back, though they may be getting replaced themselves, in that case. It might be that Loki sort of dispelling them and poking holes in their supposed power was the first step in this big role switchup, even if that wasn't his intent. Like, if he deflated the power they had over the gods and Ragnarok, and the Ragnarok Cycle itself was ended even earlier by Thor, then the narrative all these roles are there to support kind of falls apart, doesn't it? It becomes directionless when looking at it from a big picture angle rather than individual arcs. Rather than freeing them of a horrible fate, breaking the Ragnarok Cycle may justhave made it so that a NEW horrible fate has to take Ragnarok's place, so that the story has structure again. But it can't really just be straight up Ragnarok again, because though the new roles the characters are stepping into broadly fit the old ones, they can't really fit the specific events of Ragnarok. Like, some of the specifics, which are part of prophecy, are just too much to tack on to a group of new characters, because they rely too much on pretty specific relationships, abilities, histories, etc. Also, if this is happening to keep the structure, but also keep the impact of the story intact, then the sense of peril is lessened if they are just going through the exact same beats that their predecessors faced, it becomes following a plan and going through the motions, and the readers have seen it all play out before as well so it won't have as much impact. A new cataclysm would restore emotional weight to the events and no one would just know what was going to happen beyond the fact that it would be pretty devastating. I feel like with a shakeup this large, with as many characters changing roles as there are, it should also come with their own version of Ragnarok that has vaguely the same end result, but happens in a different way that relies on the specfic personalities and histories of the characters in their new roles, it just feels right. But the catch there is that we may not know the New Ragnarok when we see it. Especially since this is comics, so earth shattering events are kinda... normal.

(for some reason Firefox's spell check stopped working in CBR, so i apologise in advance for the typos that probably will be the bane of my existence from now on until it is fixed. Seems to be jsut in CBR, still get my lovely squiggly red lines in Hangouts, tumblr, and stuff...)