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  1. #781
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Personally, I am fine with the half-Kree retcon. For one, I am not a life-long Carol fan and I have always been a fan more of her space-faring, solo Captain Marvel adventures than of her more grounded stories and traits (Not that I dislike them either, I just have a preference with the former) so I think tying her heritage to the Kree and giving her a half-alien sister is definitively an interesting interaction. As others said, I would like to see how she plays off between her grounded Earth origin and her ties with space and the Kree.

    Furthermore, I don't see the issue about it, really. To me it mostly adds on top as opposed to subtracting from her already established origins. From what I remember, The Life of Captain Marvel didn't outright say that Carol was drawn to space because of her genes or something along those lines (although it is a logical conclusion to draw) but it mostly explained why her alien warrior mother didn't step up for her (Which, I'll concede, is one of the sillier things about the retcon. Her mother is space Wonder Woman and she can't stop her drunken human husband?) But otherwise that doesn't change the experiences Carol had on Earth, her likes or who she is entirely, at least not until she learned of her true origins. So again, I am very interested to see where they will take all these plot lines.
    It literally stated it was because of her kree heritage. Multiple times, in fact. So her motivations were changed.

  2. #782
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    I wonder how a patriacal society somehow ended up with -ell as the family name, especially a racist one with blue supremacy
    Lauri-Ellís father was a blue Kree with the last name Ell? The fated love saga of Romeo Kree and Juliet Kree

    My only issue with the retcon honestly was the name choice comes off way to Superman parody

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Sure you can, just make it be a big Kree conspiracy. That wasn't Carol's mom, that was an actress. If it worked for Aunt May when she died...
    Iíd be more upset if they didnít stick with the retcon due to the potential of it and the stories were getting now where her supporting cast could actually be characters of a growing mythos of her own, than the greater Marvel universe as well as adding onto Kree lore and giving Carol a deeper connection to space


    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    It literally stated it was because of her kree heritage. Multiple times, in fact. So her motivations were changed.
    Not really it just added onto why she was motivated all the other stuff could still stick, thereís no reason it couldnít.

  3. #783
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I didn't think of this before, but I guess Carol's mom was probably not there at all for Carol's sister while she was on Earth? I never got the sense Kree parents were ever close to their kids, but it would be something she has in common with Mar-Vell...

  4. #784
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    Lauri-Ell’s father was a blue Kree with the last name Ell? The fated love saga of Romeo Kree and Juliet Kree

    My only issue with the retcon honestly was the name choice comes off way to Superman parody



    I’d be more upset if they didn’t stick with the retcon due to the potential of it and the stories were getting now where her supporting cast could actually be characters of a growing mythos of her own, than the greater Marvel universe as well as adding onto Kree lore and giving Carol a deeper connection to space




    Not really it just added onto why she was motivated all the other stuff could still stick, there’s no reason it couldn’t.
    They've barely commented on the origin, this is the only thing of real consequence they've actually done. She's even worked with/under the Kree before, and she spends most of her time in space nowadays anyways, before the retcon.

  5. #785
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I didn't think of this before, but I guess Carol's mom was probably not there at all for Carol's sister while she was on Earth? I never got the sense Kree parents were ever close to their kids, but it would be something she has in common with Mar-Vell...
    Now you just made me think that maybe she'll turn out to be a villain who's jealous of Carol for having the love of their mother.

  6. #786
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Now you just made me think that maybe she'll turn out to be a villain who's jealous of Carol for having the love of their mother.
    The art makes her look too jovial and straightforward for that. I wouldn't be surprised if Carol expects she's resentful Carol got to spend all that time with her mom when she really isn't.

  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    It literally stated it was because of her kree heritage. Multiple times, in fact. So her motivations were changed.
    they call her a homing bird idek how that makes sense lul

  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The art makes her look too jovial and straightforward for that. I wouldn't be surprised if Carol expects she's resentful Carol got to spend all that time with her mom when she really isn't.
    she basically anniilates a city to draw carols attention honestly

  9. #789
    All-New Member VirusChan's Avatar
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    I really hate the retcon of Carol being a born half kree, and just the story of the Life of Captain Marvel in general. The tumblr post from illuminatingcomics a while back conveys most of the main issues I have on it but there is so much more fundamentally wrong with it.

    It seems to fail to understand Carolís kree nature or the nature of what the kree are about. The kree are not kryptonians and should not be treated as such. Carol does not and has never gotten her powers because she kree, she is kree because she has superpowers. The Kree are at an evolutionary dead end, it has been an incredibly consistent aspect to the race and has driven many of their actions throughout their publication history. From the creation of the inhumans, motivations of characters like Minevra and the Supreme Intelligence, the events like the original Kree-Skrull War and Operation Galactic Storm. Hell, even the reason given to why Mar-Vell and Rick Jones were bonded together was explained by the Supreme Intelligence trying to gain access to the latent potential of humanity which the Kree lacked. The reason the Carol was special to the Kree was that she represented an anomaly in the universe of all that the aimed for, circumventing their evolutionary stagnation as revealed in Ms. Marvel volume 1 issue #19. Carol got her powers from Mar-Vell more specifically the Psyche-Magnetron replicating the powers of Mar-Vellís Nega Bands as well as grant her the knowledge of the Kree ,and because this is a machine created by a bunch of racist, xenophobic aliens it tried to make her Kree as her wish was to stand as Mar-Vellís equal so how better to do that than to make her a Kree, or at least try.

    Having Carol get her powers from being Kree opens up too many questions that really canít be answered. If Carolís mother was Kree how was she able to naturally produce a child with a human? If it was that easy wouldnít the Supreme Intelligence have tried that originally? Or Minevra? You have to remember that while the Kree while they look human arenít and they donít have the Skrulls shapeshifting powers as a crutch for hybrids. I mean Genis and Phylla were produced through the technology of Titan, plus are non base human to begin with. Even if I ignore the whole breeding thing, why would Carol if she was half Kree born exhibit powers like flight? The Kree canít fly, they use technology for that, always have. If I accept the retcon I have to completely redefine the Kree as a people, throw out Mar-Vellís entire original run because it now makes very little sense as well as Carolís whole first run as a huge conflict in that run is Carol coming to terms with a new part of her that is alien.

    Even ignoring all of that, the simple fact is anything that is gained by making Carolís mother a Kree is better done just by using Mar-Vell. Why was Carolís mother on Earth? I donít know, earth was a backwater nothing planet that the Kree had not visited in thousands of years far from any of their trade routes. Why did Mar-Vell come? As a direct reaction to the Fantastic Fourís defeat of a Kree Sentry and Ronan, with him there to investigate humanity. The love affair between Carolís mother and father, why would I not just expand on Carolís and Mar-Vellís romance. He has to be important enough to her that she opted to take a variation of his name and costume when becoming a superhero. The idea of Carolís mother being a great traitor to the Kree, well that is just blatantly ripped off from Mar-Vellís character, less well explained too as Mar-Vell actively went against the Kree on multiple occasions, while Marie simply seemed to fall off the map. Well what about the idea of introducing a whole new Kree family around the idea. With Mar-Vell you already have Hulkling, Genis, Phyla, the potential tension between Carol and his former love Elysis, his almost never mentioned scientist parents, and any number of siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces. They arenít Carolís family but still could be used for some fascinating dynamics. Why do I need to introduce a bunch of Kree family members when her relationship with brother is so underdeveloped and I can just have her interact with Mar-Vell kids and have her teach them about their father so that they can see him as more than just a legacy but understand through Carol what the man he was.

    The Life of Captain Marvel seems to think that Carol getting her powers from Mar-Vell is somehow a bad thing, that it is disempowering, that by changing the origin story in this way Carol will become a stronger character. But how I have always seen Carolís origin all it really does is strip away what is essentially her Uncle Ben moment. Let me explain. Carol was someone who even since she was a little girl was fascinated by outer space, she consumed all forms of sci-fi literature (her childhood crush being someone like Flash Gordon), took up stargazing, and astronomy. She decides that she is going to become an astronaut so that she can reach out and touch the sky. She excelled in the air force, becoming a pilot at a very young age, but instead of the narrative that she experienced sexism in the air force quite the opposite happened, her excellence is noted and she is brought into military intelligence. She finds herself so wrapped up in her duty, so wrapped up in saving the world and protecting her country that she loses sight of her dream. Then after a failed mission Carol is captured by terrorists, and while they are unable to break her spirit, they do break her body to the point where she would no longer be able to be an astronaut or even fly planes anymore. Think how Dr. Strange lost his ability to be a surgeon. Carol gets herself a post at the Cape, surrounded by the prospect of everything she ever wanted but unable to live it. Then Mar-Vell shows up, and reignites Carolís passion for the unknown. This mystery man who turns out to be from another world would become her Superman and through his actions eventually gives Carol her powers. Carol now has the ability to explore the depths of space something that she never dreamed would be possible, all because of this one man. Then Mar-Vell dies, and it's not that he died that is important but how he died. Exposure to a canister of nerve gas that Carol was supposed to be guarding. The fact that she had her powers but was not aware of them, that if she had just acted then she could have saved him, but she didnít and he died. The man who gave her everything. That fulfilled her heart's desire and she failed him. So now as Captain Marvel (or even as Ms Marvel) she opts to try to pay it forward because she can never pay him back. This is her Uncle Ben moment, this is why she goes by the name Captain Marvel and I donít like writers changing it for no good reason.

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusChan View Post
    I really hate the retcon of Carol being a born half kree, and just the story of the Life of Captain Marvel in general. The tumblr post from illuminatingcomics a while back conveys most of the main issues I have on it but there is so much more fundamentally wrong with it.

    It seems to fail to understand Carol’s kree nature or the nature of what the kree are about. The kree are not kryptonians and should not be treated as such. Carol does not and has never gotten her powers because she kree, she is kree because she has superpowers. The Kree are at an evolutionary dead end, it has been an incredibly consistent aspect to the race and has driven many of their actions throughout their publication history. From the creation of the inhumans, motivations of characters like Minevra and the Supreme Intelligence, the events like the original Kree-Skrull War and Operation Galactic Storm. Hell, even the reason given to why Mar-Vell and Rick Jones were bonded together was explained by the Supreme Intelligence trying to gain access to the latent potential of humanity which the Kree lacked. The reason the Carol was special to the Kree was that she represented an anomaly in the universe of all that the aimed for, circumventing their evolutionary stagnation as revealed in Ms. Marvel volume 1 issue #19. Carol got her powers from Mar-Vell more specifically the Psyche-Magnetron replicating the powers of Mar-Vell’s Nega Bands as well as grant her the knowledge of the Kree ,and because this is a machine created by a bunch of racist, xenophobic aliens it tried to make her Kree as her wish was to stand as Mar-Vell’s equal so how better to do that than to make her a Kree, or at least try.

    Having Carol get her powers from being Kree opens up too many questions that really can’t be answered. If Carol’s mother was Kree how was she able to naturally produce a child with a human? If it was that easy wouldn’t the Supreme Intelligence have tried that originally? Or Minevra? You have to remember that while the Kree while they look human aren’t and they don’t have the Skrulls shapeshifting powers as a crutch for hybrids. I mean Genis and Phylla were produced through the technology of Titan, plus are non base human to begin with. Even if I ignore the whole breeding thing, why would Carol if she was half Kree born exhibit powers like flight? The Kree can’t fly, they use technology for that, always have. If I accept the retcon I have to completely redefine the Kree as a people, throw out Mar-Vell’s entire original run because it now makes very little sense as well as Carol’s whole first run as a huge conflict in that run is Carol coming to terms with a new part of her that is alien.

    Even ignoring all of that, the simple fact is anything that is gained by making Carol’s mother a Kree is better done just by using Mar-Vell. Why was Carol’s mother on Earth? I don’t know, earth was a backwater nothing planet that the Kree had not visited in thousands of years far from any of their trade routes. Why did Mar-Vell come? As a direct reaction to the Fantastic Four’s defeat of a Kree Sentry and Ronan, with him there to investigate humanity. The love affair between Carol’s mother and father, why would I not just expand on Carol’s and Mar-Vell’s romance. He has to be important enough to her that she opted to take a variation of his name and costume when becoming a superhero. The idea of Carol’s mother being a great traitor to the Kree, well that is just blatantly ripped off from Mar-Vell’s character, less well explained too as Mar-Vell actively went against the Kree on multiple occasions, while Marie simply seemed to fall off the map. Well what about the idea of introducing a whole new Kree family around the idea. With Mar-Vell you already have Hulkling, Genis, Phyla, the potential tension between Carol and his former love Elysis, his almost never mentioned scientist parents, and any number of siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces. They aren’t Carol’s family but still could be used for some fascinating dynamics. Why do I need to introduce a bunch of Kree family members when her relationship with brother is so underdeveloped and I can just have her interact with Mar-Vell kids and have her teach them about their father so that they can see him as more than just a legacy but understand through Carol what the man he was.

    The Life of Captain Marvel seems to think that Carol getting her powers from Mar-Vell is somehow a bad thing, that it is disempowering, that by changing the origin story in this way Carol will become a stronger character. But how I have always seen Carol’s origin all it really does is strip away what is essentially her Uncle Ben moment. Let me explain. Carol was someone who even since she was a little girl was fascinated by outer space, she consumed all forms of sci-fi literature (her childhood crush being someone like Flash Gordon), took up stargazing, and astronomy. She decides that she is going to become an astronaut so that she can reach out and touch the sky. She excelled in the air force, becoming a pilot at a very young age, but instead of the narrative that she experienced sexism in the air force quite the opposite happened, her excellence is noted and she is brought into military intelligence. She finds herself so wrapped up in her duty, so wrapped up in saving the world and protecting her country that she loses sight of her dream. Then after a failed mission Carol is captured by terrorists, and while they are unable to break her spirit, they do break her body to the point where she would no longer be able to be an astronaut or even fly planes anymore. Think how Dr. Strange lost his ability to be a surgeon. Carol gets herself a post at the Cape, surrounded by the prospect of everything she ever wanted but unable to live it. Then Mar-Vell shows up, and reignites Carol’s passion for the unknown. This mystery man who turns out to be from another world would become her Superman and through his actions eventually gives Carol her powers. Carol now has the ability to explore the depths of space something that she never dreamed would be possible, all because of this one man. Then Mar-Vell dies, and it's not that he died that is important but how he died. Exposure to a canister of nerve gas that Carol was supposed to be guarding. The fact that she had her powers but was not aware of them, that if she had just acted then she could have saved him, but she didn’t and he died. The man who gave her everything. That fulfilled her heart's desire and she failed him. So now as Captain Marvel (or even as Ms Marvel) she opts to try to pay it forward because she can never pay him back. This is her Uncle Ben moment, this is why she goes by the name Captain Marvel and I don’t like writers changing it for no good reason.
    its not the cannister of nerve gas part that played a role, although his cancer did (Marvel Fanfare 24) where she felt guilt for not having been there in case her genetics might've held the key to his salvation.

    No, its closer to when he saved her from yon rogg, when she wished to be able to save herself and mar-vell and metaphorically stand with him as an equal instead of a damsel who needed to be rescued and thus endangered marv's life.

    Of course, the irony is that in part she wanted to be her own woman, but now she struggled with alien memories/identity and genetics so she had an existential crisis. She wanted to save her friend, but the new Ms. Marvel persona had no friends. Even after she overcame this "curse" of the monkey's paws-esque wishing well of the magnitron, her life would have ironies.

    She'd be unable to save herself, if anything it made her a bigger target for rogue, supremor, marcus (and many of them would compromise her sense of identity as well). She'd be unable to save Mar-vell because she was unable to save herself (over and over, from cancer, from the phoenix, even the skrull versions).

    This theme even comes up during the brood saga

    RCO005_1469331471.jpg

  11. #791
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    also while it isn't mentioned that lubyanka made it impossible for her to become an astronaut or pilot, that would be a good narrative.
    I reckon its more that she had her official flight license revoked to maintain her cover for the ghazi rashid thing with some fake ailment disqualifying her from official flight that happened in reed's run

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusChan View Post
    I really hate the retcon of Carol being a born half kree, and just the story of the Life of Captain Marvel in general. The tumblr post from illuminatingcomics a while back conveys most of the main issues I have on it but there is so much more fundamentally wrong with it.

    It seems to fail to understand Carol’s kree nature or the nature of what the kree are about. The kree are not kryptonians and should not be treated as such. Carol does not and has never gotten her powers because she kree, she is kree because she has superpowers. The Kree are at an evolutionary dead end, it has been an incredibly consistent aspect to the race and has driven many of their actions throughout their publication history. From the creation of the inhumans, motivations of characters like Minevra and the Supreme Intelligence, the events like the original Kree-Skrull War and Operation Galactic Storm. Hell, even the reason given to why Mar-Vell and Rick Jones were bonded together was explained by the Supreme Intelligence trying to gain access to the latent potential of humanity which the Kree lacked. The reason the Carol was special to the Kree was that she represented an anomaly in the universe of all that the aimed for, circumventing their evolutionary stagnation as revealed in Ms. Marvel volume 1 issue #19. Carol got her powers from Mar-Vell more specifically the Psyche-Magnetron replicating the powers of Mar-Vell’s Nega Bands as well as grant her the knowledge of the Kree ,and because this is a machine created by a bunch of racist, xenophobic aliens it tried to make her Kree as her wish was to stand as Mar-Vell’s equal so how better to do that than to make her a Kree, or at least try.

    Having Carol get her powers from being Kree opens up too many questions that really can’t be answered. If Carol’s mother was Kree how was she able to naturally produce a child with a human? If it was that easy wouldn’t the Supreme Intelligence have tried that originally? Or Minevra? You have to remember that while the Kree while they look human aren’t and they don’t have the Skrulls shapeshifting powers as a crutch for hybrids. I mean Genis and Phylla were produced through the technology of Titan, plus are non base human to begin with. Even if I ignore the whole breeding thing, why would Carol if she was half Kree born exhibit powers like flight? The Kree can’t fly, they use technology for that, always have. If I accept the retcon I have to completely redefine the Kree as a people, throw out Mar-Vell’s entire original run because it now makes very little sense as well as Carol’s whole first run as a huge conflict in that run is Carol coming to terms with a new part of her that is alien.

    Even ignoring all of that, the simple fact is anything that is gained by making Carol’s mother a Kree is better done just by using Mar-Vell. Why was Carol’s mother on Earth? I don’t know, earth was a backwater nothing planet that the Kree had not visited in thousands of years far from any of their trade routes. Why did Mar-Vell come? As a direct reaction to the Fantastic Four’s defeat of a Kree Sentry and Ronan, with him there to investigate humanity. The love affair between Carol’s mother and father, why would I not just expand on Carol’s and Mar-Vell’s romance. He has to be important enough to her that she opted to take a variation of his name and costume when becoming a superhero. The idea of Carol’s mother being a great traitor to the Kree, well that is just blatantly ripped off from Mar-Vell’s character, less well explained too as Mar-Vell actively went against the Kree on multiple occasions, while Marie simply seemed to fall off the map. Well what about the idea of introducing a whole new Kree family around the idea. With Mar-Vell you already have Hulkling, Genis, Phyla, the potential tension between Carol and his former love Elysis, his almost never mentioned scientist parents, and any number of siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces. They aren’t Carol’s family but still could be used for some fascinating dynamics. Why do I need to introduce a bunch of Kree family members when her relationship with brother is so underdeveloped and I can just have her interact with Mar-Vell kids and have her teach them about their father so that they can see him as more than just a legacy but understand through Carol what the man he was.

    The Life of Captain Marvel seems to think that Carol getting her powers from Mar-Vell is somehow a bad thing, that it is disempowering, that by changing the origin story in this way Carol will become a stronger character. But how I have always seen Carol’s origin all it really does is strip away what is essentially her Uncle Ben moment. Let me explain. Carol was someone who even since she was a little girl was fascinated by outer space, she consumed all forms of sci-fi literature (her childhood crush being someone like Flash Gordon), took up stargazing, and astronomy. She decides that she is going to become an astronaut so that she can reach out and touch the sky. She excelled in the air force, becoming a pilot at a very young age, but instead of the narrative that she experienced sexism in the air force quite the opposite happened, her excellence is noted and she is brought into military intelligence. She finds herself so wrapped up in her duty, so wrapped up in saving the world and protecting her country that she loses sight of her dream. Then after a failed mission Carol is captured by terrorists, and while they are unable to break her spirit, they do break her body to the point where she would no longer be able to be an astronaut or even fly planes anymore. Think how Dr. Strange lost his ability to be a surgeon. Carol gets herself a post at the Cape, surrounded by the prospect of everything she ever wanted but unable to live it. Then Mar-Vell shows up, and reignites Carol’s passion for the unknown. This mystery man who turns out to be from another world would become her Superman and through his actions eventually gives Carol her powers. Carol now has the ability to explore the depths of space something that she never dreamed would be possible, all because of this one man. Then Mar-Vell dies, and it's not that he died that is important but how he died. Exposure to a canister of nerve gas that Carol was supposed to be guarding. The fact that she had her powers but was not aware of them, that if she had just acted then she could have saved him, but she didn’t and he died. The man who gave her everything. That fulfilled her heart's desire and she failed him. So now as Captain Marvel (or even as Ms Marvel) she opts to try to pay it forward because she can never pay him back. This is her Uncle Ben moment, this is why she goes by the name Captain Marvel and I don’t like writers changing it for no good reason.
    A long read...but to the point....and sums up much of what I feel about the retcon. The Kree were an evolutionary dead end til the Kree-Shi'ar war and the Supreme Intelligence used the Nega Bomb to kickstart their evolution. This whole 'Kree have this potential in them' is nonsense...at least at the time that Carol would have been born. Should have just left it as she is human (a species that has the potential for power in their genes) who overcame her father's chauvinism to excel in a 'man's world' and got powers like any other super hero.

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    There's also enough lore there in the first version of her origin.

    The psyche-magnitron is a wish granting machine with a crystal power core of sorts, was able to give minnerva powers and was used by the supreme intelligence to kickstart evolution in operation galactic storm. It also created doomsday man, but irony of his life was korman was fused with doomsday man. Why?

    We know why the kree actually have issues with evolution, its because years ago some kree failed the test of the Crystal of the Ultimate Vision.

    We've got enough lore right there to explore how the supreme intelligence would've sought to create a form of the crystal that robbed the kree of their evolutionary glory, and he may have sought similar means to reverse it. He may have even got some inspiration from Carol's accident where negabands combined with the magnitron are able to awaken carol's psionic powers and abilities by splicing kree dna into her perfectly.

    Also, like,, pink kree exist, who are supposed to be hybrids of sorts instead of the pure blue skins
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 07-18-2020 at 01:27 PM.

  14. #794
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Should have just left it as she is human (a species that has the potential for power in their genes) who overcame her father's chauvinism to excel in a 'man's world' and got powers like any other super hero.
    Was the origin change Disney's doing?
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Was the origin change Disney's doing?
    no
    but it might've been based on a rumor that mar-vell was gonna be her mom?

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