Carol Danvers: Captain Marvel Appreciation 2020

[MadFacedKid]

They've barely commented on the origin, this is the only thing of real consequence they've actually done. She's even worked with/under the Kree before, and she spends most of her time in space nowadays anyways, before the retcon.

Outside the time she thought she from Hala I don’t really remember much being incorporated outside a few Kree rogues that come to the planet.

The retcon gives her access to a history of a warrior space race. Same way we get issues dealing with Krypton, Themyscira, Attilan we can get that now understandably with Carol. We can get back stories involving her ancestors from her mother’s side and learn more about her heritage. We can get a actual supporting cast of badass characters playing off this retcon without borrowing characters from other franchises to guess star. It’s awesome for world building perspectives

Carol also doesn’t really hangout that often in space in her own runs. She had one run where she was primarily in space and it didn’t have many issues.

I’m not saying she didn’t already have a connection with the Kree I just feel the retcon deepened that connection

[LordUltimus]

Outside the time she thought she from Hala I don’t really remember much being incorporated outside a few Kree rogues that come to the planet.

The retcon gives her access to a history of a warrior space race. Same way we get issues dealing with Krypton, Themyscira, Attilan we can get that now understandably with Carol. We can get back stories involving her ancestors from her mother’s side and learn more about her heritage. We can get a actual supporting cast of badass characters playing off this retcon without borrowing characters from other franchises to guess star. It’s awesome for world building perspectives

Carol also doesn’t really hangout that often in space in her own runs. She had one run where she was primarily in space and it didn’t have many issues.

I’m not saying she didn’t already have a connection with the Kree I just feel the retcon deepened that connection

We could have new characters without borrowing without the retcon, that's entirely on the writer. It certainly didn't STOP borrowing characters to add to her cast.

All the retcon does is take away her uniqueness and maker more of a rip-off of Superman/Wonder Woman/Aquaman/Namor/dozens of other characters. If I wanted to read about a hybrid hero I'd read about a character that's already a hybrid hero. By that logic every character Marvel has should be retconned in such a such a way.

And she's up in space all the time, I don't know what your talking about.

[AndersonHoran]

I really hate the retcon of Carol being a born half kree, and just the story of the Life of Captain Marvel in general. The tumblr post from illuminatingcomics a while back conveys most of the main issues I have on it but there is so much more fundamentally wrong with it.

It seems to fail to understand Carol’s kree nature or the nature of what the kree are about. The kree are not kryptonians and should not be treated as such. Carol does not and has never gotten her powers because she kree, she is kree because she has superpowers. The Kree are at an evolutionary dead end, it has been an incredibly consistent aspect to the race and has driven many of their actions throughout their publication history. From the creation of the inhumans, motivations of characters like Minevra and the Supreme Intelligence, the events like the original Kree-Skrull War and Operation Galactic Storm. Hell, even the reason given to why Mar-Vell and Rick Jones were bonded together was explained by the Supreme Intelligence trying to gain access to the latent potential of humanity which the Kree lacked. The reason the Carol was special to the Kree was that she represented an anomaly in the universe of all that the aimed for, circumventing their evolutionary stagnation as revealed in Ms. Marvel volume 1 issue #19. Carol got her powers from Mar-Vell more specifically the Psyche-Magnetron replicating the powers of Mar-Vell’s Nega Bands as well as grant her the knowledge of the Kree ,and because this is a machine created by a bunch of racist, xenophobic aliens it tried to make her Kree as her wish was to stand as Mar-Vell’s equal so how better to do that than to make her a Kree, or at least try.

Having Carol get her powers from being Kree opens up too many questions that really can’t be answered. If Carol’s mother was Kree how was she able to naturally produce a child with a human? If it was that easy wouldn’t the Supreme Intelligence have tried that originally? Or Minevra? You have to remember that while the Kree while they look human aren’t and they don’t have the Skrulls shapeshifting powers as a crutch for hybrids. I mean Genis and Phylla were produced through the technology of Titan, plus are non base human to begin with. Even if I ignore the whole breeding thing, why would Carol if she was half Kree born exhibit powers like flight? The Kree can’t fly, they use technology for that, always have. If I accept the retcon I have to completely redefine the Kree as a people, throw out Mar-Vell’s entire original run because it now makes very little sense as well as Carol’s whole first run as a huge conflict in that run is Carol coming to terms with a new part of her that is alien.

Even ignoring all of that, the simple fact is anything that is gained by making Carol’s mother a Kree is better done just by using Mar-Vell. Why was Carol’s mother on Earth? I don’t know, earth was a backwater nothing planet that the Kree had not visited in thousands of years far from any of their trade routes. Why did Mar-Vell come? As a direct reaction to the Fantastic Four’s defeat of a Kree Sentry and Ronan, with him there to investigate humanity. The love affair between Carol’s mother and father, why would I not just expand on Carol’s and Mar-Vell’s romance. He has to be important enough to her that she opted to take a variation of his name and costume when becoming a superhero. The idea of Carol’s mother being a great traitor to the Kree, well that is just blatantly ripped off from Mar-Vell’s character, less well explained too as Mar-Vell actively went against the Kree on multiple occasions, while Marie simply seemed to fall off the map. Well what about the idea of introducing a whole new Kree family around the idea. With Mar-Vell you already have Hulkling, Genis, Phyla, the potential tension between Carol and his former love Elysis, his almost never mentioned scientist parents, and any number of siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces. They aren’t Carol’s family but still could be used for some fascinating dynamics. Why do I need to introduce a bunch of Kree family members when her relationship with brother is so underdeveloped and I can just have her interact with Mar-Vell kids and have her teach them about their father so that they can see him as more than just a legacy but understand through Carol what the man he was.

The Life of Captain Marvel seems to think that Carol getting her powers from Mar-Vell is somehow a bad thing, that it is disempowering, that by changing the origin story in this way Carol will become a stronger character. But how I have always seen Carol’s origin all it really does is strip away what is essentially her Uncle Ben moment. Let me explain. Carol was someone who even since she was a little girl was fascinated by outer space, she consumed all forms of sci-fi literature (her childhood crush being someone like Flash Gordon), took up stargazing, and astronomy. She decides that she is going to become an astronaut so that she can reach out and touch the sky. She excelled in the air force, becoming a pilot at a very young age, but instead of the narrative that she experienced sexism in the air force quite the opposite happened, her excellence is noted and she is brought into military intelligence. She finds herself so wrapped up in her duty, so wrapped up in saving the world and protecting her country that she loses sight of her dream. Then after a failed mission Carol is captured by terrorists, and while they are unable to break her spirit, they do break her body to the point where she would no longer be able to be an astronaut or even fly planes anymore. Think how Dr. Strange lost his ability to be a surgeon. Carol gets herself a post at the Cape, surrounded by the prospect of everything she ever wanted but unable to live it. Then Mar-Vell shows up, and reignites Carol’s passion for the unknown. This mystery man who turns out to be from another world would become her Superman and through his actions eventually gives Carol her powers. Carol now has the ability to explore the depths of space something that she never dreamed would be possible, all because of this one man. Then Mar-Vell dies, and it's not that he died that is important but how he died. Exposure to a canister of nerve gas that Carol was supposed to be guarding. The fact that she had her powers but was not aware of them, that if she had just acted then she could have saved him, but she didn’t and he died. The man who gave her everything. That fulfilled her heart's desire and she failed him. So now as Captain Marvel (or even as Ms Marvel) she opts to try to pay it forward because she can never pay him back. This is her Uncle Ben moment, this is why she goes by the name Captain Marvel and I don’t like writers changing it for no good reason.

They did the retcon because they wanted to disassociate Carol's image from Mar-Vell, but regarding how Carol's mom was able to have children all pink kree are the product of mating with other species. Mar-Vell had children with a Skrull, so it's not shocking that they can have children with humans.

[MadFacedKid]

We could have new characters without borrowing without the retcon, that's entirely on the writer. It certainly didn't STOP borrowing characters to add to her cast.

All the retcon does is take away her uniqueness and maker more of a rip-off of Superman/Wonder Woman/Aquaman/Namor/dozens of other characters. If I wanted to read about a hybrid hero I'd read about a character that's already a hybrid hero. By that logic every character Marvel has should be retconned in such a such a way.

And she's up in space all the time, I don't know what your talking about.

Eh I agree with the first sentiment

You’re right who appears in her book is all up to the writers. I just think the retcon gives them more storytelling potential on characters they could make to delve into the mythos.


Second part is a what..? By that logic Aquaman is a rip-off of Wonder Woman whose a ripoff to Superman. Being from a mythological civilization doesn’t make you have the same origin especially when each civilization is different.

1.) Atlantis and Themyscira are mythical they exist outside the comic books. Krypton, Hala, Wakanda and Attilan are make believe by the comic companies

2.) I don’t get the whole the retcon makes her a rip-off of those characters, you’d have to explain that to me. I think getting your powers by a accident is more generic than the child of two worlds angle especially at Marvel who the only other mainstream hybrid is I believe is Namor

3.) The only other race you listed that is a race of fighters is Themyscira, which Hala does share the fact that their a warrior race. Difference being Hala is a planet spanning through multiple planets and Themyscira is a small island on one planet. Diana also having the Greek Pantheon to play with though.


On your third statement. She’s doing absolutely nothing up in space when she’s there and it’s usually not in her own parent book. It’s in other stories where her role is pretty cut to fit in other characters.

[Ichijinijisanji]

What was unique about carol is that she got her powers from a wishing well type thing with an ironic kick to it.
Another time she got her life changed was House of M, another universe where your deepest desires are granted, where she was shown her true potential.

Can you think of many characters who got their powers from a monkey's paw or a wishing well but fate has a cruel irony for them, but they soldier on despite it?

[MadFacedKid]

What was unique about carol is that she got her powers from a wishing well type thing with an ironic kick to it.
Another time she got her life changed was House of M, another universe where your deepest desires are granted, where she was shown her true potential.

Can you think of many characters who got their powers from a monkey's paw or a wishing well but fate has a cruel irony for them, but they soldier on despite it?

I don’t see what the cruel irony part is. I also still don’t completely get the complaint the Kree-Psyche Magnitron even with the retcon is still part of her getting powers. The retcon didn’t really take anything away it just added to it

[Ichijinijisanji]

I don’t see what the cruel irony part is. I also still don’t completely get the complaint the Kree-Psyche Magnitron even with the retcon is still part of her getting powers. The retcon didn’t really take anything away it just added to it

http://www.community.cbr.com/showthr...=1#post5055874

I mention the irony part here

edit: post 790

[MadFacedKid]

It might be my internet but the page won’t load up

[Ichijinijisanji]

It might be my internet but the page won’t load up

just go to post 790 (

its not the cannister of nerve gas part that played a role, although his cancer did (Marvel Fanfare 24) where she felt guilt for not having been there in case her genetics might've held the key to his salvation.

No, its closer to when he saved her from yon rogg, when she wished to be able to save herself and mar-vell and metaphorically stand with him as an equal instead of a damsel who needed to be rescued and thus endangered marv's life.

Of course, the irony is that in part she wanted to be her own woman, but now she struggled with alien memories/identity and genetics so she had an existential crisis. She wanted to save her friend, but the new Ms. Marvel persona had no friends. Even after she overcame this "curse" of the monkey's paws-esque wishing well of the magnitron, her life would have ironies.

She'd be unable to save herself, if anything it made her a bigger target for rogue, supremor, marcus (and many of them would compromise her sense of identity as well). She'd be unable to save Mar-vell because she was unable to save herself (over and over, from cancer, from the phoenix, even the skrull versions).

This theme even comes up during the brood saga

Attachment 98892

[MadFacedKid]

I really don’t get the Irony or what it has to do with the retcon. All of that stuff still happened even with the retcon in place.

Rogue still took her powers at one point. The current Captain Marvel series tells us this
Mar-Vell still had a role in Carol gaining her abilities and so did the Kree device.

Arguably the only thing that might never get referenced again is the Marcus stuff and that’s due to other reasons outside the retcon I’d assume.

[Ichijinijisanji]

I really don’t get the Irony or what it has to do with the retcon. All of that stuff still happened even with the retcon in place.

Rogue still took her powers at one point. The current Captain Marvel series tells us this
Mar-Vell still had a role in Carol gaining her abilities and so did the Kree device.

Arguably the only thing that might never get referenced again is the Marcus stuff and that’s due to other reasons outside the retcon I’d assume.

Well Thompson didn't shy away from Marcus reference.
Anyway the point is that it dilutes or takes focus away from the original.

Take the star arc for example. Stars whole philosophy is based on gathering power because she was helpless to save herself. But Carol's initial origin has a similar philosophy and her life's ironiEs show the bad side of it which would completely demolish stars motivstions. While her new origin is used it's only as a plot device to turn the world against her. Rather than as a fundamental hero vs villain philosophy defined by life experience it could have been

[Digifiend]

Lauri-Ell’s father was a blue Kree with the last name Ell? The fated love saga of Romeo Kree and Juliet Kree

My only issue with the retcon honestly was the name choice comes off way to Superman parody

As if Carol's name hasn't been a Supergirl rip-off from the beginning? Carol sounds very similar to Kara, and her surname Danvers is the same one Supergirl took when she found a human family. They pretty much merged Supergirl's two names, Kara Zor-El and Linda Danvers, and altered the first name slightly. Of course, DC have now done that themselves, as since the New 52, Supergirl has no longer been called Linda, and is now called Kara Danvers.

[MadFacedKid]

As if Carol's name hasn't been a Supergirl rip-off from the beginning? Carol sounds very similar to Kara, and her surname Danvers is the same one Supergirl took when she found a human family. They pretty much merged Supergirl's two names, Kara Zor-El and Linda Danvers, and altered the first name slightly. Of course, DC have now done that themselves, as since the New 52, Supergirl has no longer been called Linda, and is now called Kara Danvers.

I get the original inspiration and similarities but I don’t understand the need to keep playing with the idea of paralleling to Supergirl

[MadFacedKid]

Well Thompson didn't shy away from Marcus reference.
Anyway the point is that it dilutes or takes focus away from the original.

Take the star arc for example. Stars whole philosophy is based on gathering power because she was helpless to save herself. But Carol's initial origin has a similar philosophy and her life's ironiEs show the bad side of it which would completely demolish stars motivstions. While her new origin is used it's only as a plot device to turn the world against her. Rather than as a fundamental hero vs villain philosophy defined by life experience it could have been

I still don’t see it like that her old origin still stands it just goes further back than what we thought it did now due to the retcon. She still got her powers from the Kree device it was just activated rather than being given to her. She still yearned to be able to fight beside Mar-Vell, stuff like Generations shows she still fought to stand on her own as her own woman, and it doesn’t change the House of M stuff either. She’s still that same character she just has a lineage that goes further back now and instead of getting her powers from Mar-Vell she got it from her mother, but activated due to her fate of meeting Mar-Vell. I see it as a addition not a take away.

Carol also never really sought power in the same way Star did. The philosophy could still be in place in a different way. Carol was given power unexpectedly, and was born with power due to her genetics. Where as opposed to her Star went and sought out power.
The difference is Genetics vs Drive in a way. Almost a Superman vs Lex situation where the villain envies the hero despite the hero being who they are despite their powers.

Carol didn’t seek power from the Kree Device she wanted to help Mar-Vell as a equal. It was to not be a damsel. Not her wanting to have super powers. The Brood experimentation wasn’t of her own free will. Star on the other hand purposely went and sought out powers from Minn-Erva and then when she lost those she unexpectedly got the reality stone. So in a way it’s a reverse situation. Carol originally wanting to be Mar-Vell’s equal her abilities being activated by chance and then later on being experimented. While Star was experimented on first lost her abilities (similar) and then by chance got the reality stone.

[Keyotheseasons]