View Poll Results: Which backstory of Rey did you prefer

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  • She is a nobody (Last Jedi)

    21 38.89%
  • She is Palpatine's Grand child (Rise of Skywalker)

    20 37.04%
  • Neither

    13 24.07%
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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    The whole idea that Rey is "overpowered" never really fit, given the world building of the series to this point and the conditions of the duel.
    Building? There was ZERO character development with Rey.

    Rey hears the Force is Real.

    Shortly after....

    - Never flew the Millennium Falcon before but manages to out-maneuver two Tie Fighter Pilots
    - Resists Mind Control
    - Uses Mind Control
    - Telekinesis
    - Never picked up a Lightsaber but beats Kylo Ren

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Almost doesn't count. The bottom line is Rey won.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Building? There was ZERO character development with Rey.
    Au contraire, as I shall explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Rey hears the Force is Real.

    Shortly after....
    FIY, Rey did know about the Force from the beginning of the movie (she knew the stories about Luke, even if she wasn't sure it was a real thing). However:

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    - Never flew the Millennium Falcon before but manages to out-maneuver two Tie Fighter Pilots
    She had prior piloting experience ("I've flown some ships, but I've never left the planet!") and did have first-hand knowledge about the Falcon ("Some moof-milker put a compressor on the ignition line!"/"Unkar Plutt did. I thought it was a mistake too, puts too much stress on the hyperdrive"). (The canon books Before the Awakening, Rey's Story, and TFA novelization also establish that Rey had been level-grinding on a flight simulator -- including dogfight scenarios -- for years and that she'd often on snuck into the Falcon at night to study it's workings.)

    We also know that latent Force users often have a leg up in piloting scenarios ("You must have Jedi reflexes if you race pods." "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait. - Phantom Menace). Circumstantial evidence from the Rebels short "Property of Ezra Bridger" and the pilot "Spark of Rebellion" also strongly imply that untrained users often inherently have this "Spidey Sense" hardwired into them. The episode "The Siege of Lothal" also shows how effective Force usage would be in a dogfight. It is very strongly implied in TFA that Rey was unconsciously drawing on the Force during the fight ("Now that was some flying! How did you do that?!"/"I... I don't know!").

    (Also, before anyone pulls the "instant master" card, remember that the first thing Rey did with the Falcon was plow through the town's gateway and she did need to work with Finn to actually survive the dogfight.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    - Resists Mind Control
    "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded" (A New Hope). Thank you, next. (If you need more context, Kylo believed he could get the information from her in a second go and Snoke was too strong to resist. So, good start, not invincible.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    - Uses Mind Control
    A stretch, maybe, but the movie earned a break, given how well everything else was set up. Besides, the canon novelization's clarification that she reverse engineered what Kylo was doing to her makes enough sense in context of the film. Also, three tries is hardly mastery. (In case you're wondering, we do know that mind tricks are beginner's skills, per the Rebels episode "Homecoming.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    - Telekinesis
    Unfortunately, we know that telekinesis can be used untrained; Luke used it on his saber in ESB, despite never being taught how and having less then a day of Jedi lessons -- exactly like Rey (the canon novel Heir to the Empire confirms that Luke taught himself and that he did so by just trying until he did it). So, Rey using on Starkiller Base was a "fair" decision, since it was following information we already knew and therefore, irrelevant to the Mary Sue question.

    (Also, for what it's worth, we know from the canon novels Ahsoka and Force Collectorthat latent Force sensitives can have a Force skill or trait that they just inherently know how to do. While it's unconfirmed if Rey was one such person, it could be possible that she was and had telekinesis -- or mind trick, for that matter -- as her gift.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    - Never picked up a Lightsaber but beats Kylo Ren
    Watch. The. Dang. Movie! Every detail of why Rey wins and Kylo loses was set up before the fight. Let this fallacy die; kill it if you have to!

    (Cliff Note version: Kylo was badly injured and not fighting as full capacity and Rey only one because she was able to connect with the Force like Maz showed her. Remember who would've won the last duel on the Death Star wreck when both were at their best had Leia not sent a Force message in TROS?)

    Nice tries, but I've heard them all before and none of them stick. It's time to get a new theory.

    Last edited by WebLurker; 01-05-2020 at 04:11 PM.
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Rey said in the movie she never flew the Falcon. Nothing else about any prior experience. But the book said she became an ace pilot from playing a video game on a busted up AT-AT?



    As for Anakin, he built and previously raced before. Rey said she never flew. So the stories she heard about Luke made her an expert with the force and fighting with a saber.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Rey said in the movie she never flew the Falcon. Nothing else about any prior experience. But the book said she became an ace pilot from playing a video game on a busted up AT-AT?



    As for Anakin, he built and previously raced before. Rey said she never flew. So the stories she heard about Luke made her an expert with the force and fighting with a saber.
    The force has shown to grant great skill before, why does this strain credibility now?

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Rey said in the movie she never flew the Falcon. Nothing else about any prior experience. But the book said she became an ace pilot from playing a video game on a busted up AT-AT?



    As for Anakin, he built and previously raced before. Rey said she never flew. So the stories she heard about Luke made her an expert with the force and fighting with a saber.
    No, when she and Finn are celebrating her escape, she mentions that she has actually piloted before, just not in space (as seen in Before the Awakening).
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  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Rey said in the movie she never flew the Falcon. Nothing else about any prior experience. But the book said she became an ace pilot from playing a video game on a busted up AT-AT?



    As for Anakin, he built and previously raced before. Rey said she never flew. So the stories she heard about Luke made her an expert with the force and fighting with a saber.
    Not wanting to take the books for anything is fair. But she says in the movie explicitly that she does have piloting experience. She's just never flown that particular ship. This isn't an issue. There's tons of cars I've never personally driven but I know how to drive.

    Looking at all the films and how the Force is portrayed, using the mind trick is the only thing that sticks out as OP.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-05-2020 at 09:29 PM.
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  7. #37
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The force has shown to grant great skill before, why does this strain credibility now?
    The force doesn't grant people skill, the way that Disney treats the force like some sort of cheat code shows they have a great ignorance of the source material. Consider how Anakin's abilities are explained in Episode 1. The force gives Anakin heighted reaction times and possible even the ability to foresee danger before it happens. His piloting skills however are entirely his own and a skill he had to work out.

    Conversely, the only way that Rey seemingly learns anything is by stealing the knowledge from other beings, like she did with Kylo Ren in TFA. If Rey turned out to be some kind of force vampire then all her inexplicable skills would make a certain kind of sense, especially in light of her being part of the Palpatine bloodline. You could take it even further, everyone seems to get dumber around Rey, as though she is passively draining all their mental faculties.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    The force doesn't grant people skill, the way that Disney treats the force like some sort of cheat code shows they have a great ignorance of the source material.
    Yeah, see two posts ago r.e. that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Consider how Anakin's abilities are explained in Episode 1. The force gives Anakin heighted reaction times and possible even the ability to foresee danger before it happens. His piloting skills however are entirely his own and a skill he had to work out.
    And yet when Rey is given the same backstory, people object. Can only think of a couple reasons why, none very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Conversely, the only way that Rey seemingly learns anything is by stealing the knowledge from other beings, like she did with Kylo Ren in TFA. If Rey turned out to be some kind of force vampire then all her inexplicable skills would make a certain kind of sense, especially in light of her being part of the Palpatine bloodline. You could take it even further, everyone seems to get dumber around Rey, as though she is passively draining all their mental faculties.
    Not quite; the idea was that she "downloaded" some things from Kylo during the mind-reading scene because he was trying to read her mind. That was the extent of that. Her grandfather being Palpatine does make her being above average make a lot of sense, but no vampirism involved. A lot of the things she's shown just doing are things we already know latent Force sensitives can tap into untrained or self-teaching. And you think the stories don't get the source material?
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  9. #39

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    @Weblurker: I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure people complained about kid Anakin too as soon as the negativity about the prequels came out.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    @Weblurker: I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure people complained about kid Anakin too as soon as the negativity about the prequels came out.
    Maybe? I don't remember that one way or the other. In the present, it seems like Anakin (and Luke) are considered the Force emergent done right while Rey is a "Mary Sue," despite them having functionally the same kinds of setup and explanations when you look at the nuts and bolts.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    The force doesn't grant people skill, the way that Disney treats the force like some sort of cheat code shows they have a great ignorance of the source material. Consider how Anakin's abilities are explained in Episode 1. The force gives Anakin heighted reaction times and possible even the ability to foresee danger before it happens. His piloting skills however are entirely his own and a skill he had to work out. .
    So basically, it doesn't give you skill, it just gives you everything you would need. Six of one...

  12. #42
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    @Weblurker: I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure people complained about kid Anakin too as soon as the negativity about the prequels came out.
    You are not wrong people did complain about kid Anakin, it harmed Jack Lloyds career and he resents the entire movie. Sigh, and to think Rey has turned out to be a more negative character.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    So basically, it doesn't give you skill, it just gives you everything you would need. Six of one...
    Skill will always be a learnt trait. Some people may be born with bodies ideally suited to becoming fast runners or heavy-weight boxers but if they don't develop such talents the potential they have amounts to nothing. The same is true of the force, quick reflexes and a keen sense for danger might lend themselves well to becoming a starfighter pilot but the person still has to learn from scratch. Of which I'm sorry to say that Anakin got a better chance to develop his skills as a podracer then Rey ever could as a scavenger.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    As if Disney was going to put out an entire trilogy of Star Wars movies and not have the heroine be a princess somehow.
    Haha, well, you just made this thread worth reading.

  15. #45
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe? I don't remember that one way or the other. In the present, it seems like Anakin (and Luke) are considered the Force emergent done right while Rey is a "Mary Sue," despite them having functionally the same kinds of setup and explanations when you look at the nuts and bolts.
    Anakin in "Phantom Menace" was definitely a Mary Sue. (Obviously, people hated him so much it ruined the child actor's life ) in "Attack of the Clones" we see Anakin actually fail several times (giving into the Dark Side and murdering a village, losing the fight with Dooku and his arm in the process, and needing rescue by Master Yoda.) So George course corrected the problem and the character was no longer Mr. perfect.
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