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  1. #286
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    His peers not respecting him has nothing to do with him not being Batman-lite enough. It’s a general DC management issue, and the lack of character protection.
    Well, I don't want him Batman-lite, either. I hate what Batman has become (and how DC has other characters react to that). But I really like the 1980s-1990s (and even 1970s) Dick Grayson a lot more than the one we have now. I like him being - and acting - mature. It was very cool to me that anyone who knew him reasonably well (even in civilian life) knew he was a very intelligent, mature young man. That he could and did command respect, even among those heroes older than him. They weren't still playing the mentor - he was done and grown treated like a peer (not necessarily by Bruce, but by others).

    I liked him differing from Bruce in preferring emotional intimacy with his sexual partners. I liked him someone people knew was intelligent - that villains regarded as worthy foes. I don't mind characters that play the fool (occasionally - it's annoying in the long-term) - but I don't want Dick Grayson to be one. I hate that he's lost his "detective" status (part of parceling up Batman's and handing them out to different Robins instead of them all being well-rounded). He was brilliant in the past at both detecting and tactics and now so many people - characters and fans alike - think he's not especially bright. Not a big thinker, when he used to be such a big thinker. So, while I don't Batman-lite, I don't want him to be (or have as a disguise) a Brucie-knockoff personality, either. Hell, I liked Bruce better when he didn't have a "Brucie" and yes, Bruce played a socialite, but not an idiot or an airhead and he actually enjoyed going to parties and on dates and so on. When he just hid that he was Batman instead of having an entirely false personality.

    I hate that I can read a story from 1982 when he was 19 years old and think he's more mature and inspiring and generally able to gain respect of both people who casually know him and those who know him well (and much more likable to me) than I perceive him today. I think he is too often depicted as something of a manchild, as least in a personal sense.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-26-2020 at 04:01 PM.

  2. #287
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    We'll have to disagree. I see a lot more of his old peers not respecting him as much as they used to and that goes about triple for general comic fans. And like I said, not entertaining to me at all.
    Well, Dick's standing in the Superhero community isn't what it used to be but I don't think that has anything to do with his general attitude and more the mis-managing of the Titans franchise and Dick's history.

    In Seeley's run he got a lot of respect from Batman, Superman, and other characters.
    If one person is in charge and giving the instructions, the at the very least are not equal partners.
    I think it's also an issue of Batman being the main character of the franchise so every spinoff character is subordinate to him even if they're not direct sidekicks.
    I don't really care what the general public is used to. I mean, it matters to DC, of course, but not for my preferences. I feel she has been demoted from someone who debuted as independent hero, a peer, to sidekick (or rather, former side kick) in many regards. I don't like it. Even if everyone else loves it, I still don't like it. I don't care if she's a librarian at all. I do care that she comes on the scene as an independent hero, and that she never be an underling/sidekick/protege of Batman's. I do care that her dynamic and relationship to Dick be more important than the one to Bruce. I much prefer her running the BoP (preferably not out of building Bruce owns or with Bruce's equipment) than to running Batman's electronic security/IT, since that makes her seem like an employee to me. And it seems like "make work" since he manged his own just fine before she had the job. As Batgirl, I prefer her independent. It matters to me.

    And yes, her relationship to Jim is most important, but I don't see why it needs to be mentioned in this regard, which about Bruce and Dick. Unless you're comparing father/mentor figures, which I really dislike Batman in that role for her.
    I don't think being a sidekick means she can't be independent. Her origin has always been her coming into her own and using Batman's iconography for herself, and him recognizing that to various degrees.

    I don't think Bruce ever treated Oracle as an employee. She was a valuable and instrumental part of the Batfamily's operations, and an important part of the family. I mean, that's part of what I enjoy about the character on a personal level. I don't like her separated from the family.

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  4. #289
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I missed these comics .

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  6. #291
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I love Babs but I been wondering do people love Batgirl over Oracle for Babs?

  7. #292
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    I love Babs but I been wondering do people love Batgirl over Oracle for Babs?
    In my case yes. I didn't there were other batgirls until Tynion's detective comics run.

  8. #293
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I love Babs but I been wondering do people love Batgirl over Oracle for Babs?
    I see more Oracle fans online. Wider audience goes for Batgirl, because they don't know comics. I think I'm in a minority on both sets. I never wanted her to be Batgirl again, hate the de-aging, but did want her to be healed of her paralysis and become an active crime-fighter again (with a new codename, because a 30+ year old should not re-adopt a name with "girl" in the title, and to be less Bat-dependent).

    I liked her when she was Batgirl (took a little time to reach her groove, IMO, but she had done so before she became a congresswoman). I admit she was completely neglected as a character later, but I liked some '70s stuff. I enjoyed her characterization as Oracle under Dixon (I read a bit after Dixon, but not much of her before because Suicide Squad is not my thing), but honestly didn't find the case-aspect of the stories as interesting. Firstly, I don't think watching someone run mission command is usually as fun (I have seen maybe one exception, but there was still a team for action, as Babs had Dinah). Secondly (and it's a disagreement that comes up for Dick with me, too), I like a consistent home base and supporting cast. The hero(s) being somewhere else each story just is not my thing, as a general rule. Ralph and Sue traveled together, so they were okay, but even then I might have gotten tired of with years of a regular on-going. And Dinah seemed to go a lot of places when I read. Heck, I didn't even much care for when Tim left the city - I like consistent supporting characters. And, okay, I really didn't care much for that version of Dinah.

    I was very much in favor of paralysis being cured. I understand all the real-world reasons against it, but I wanted it because I was very unhappy with how she was paralyzed, because other bats who got paralyzed got cured so it felt like a double-standard, and because it made no sense with several technologies/healers in the DC universe existing. While I enjoyed her interacting with the other Batfam, I didn't like her being Batfam or JLA tech-support - running her own team was better from an independence perspective. And she wanted it, and it makes sense to me she'd want it. I know a lot of people call it ableism and maybe it is, but I see a lot of people who act like within the story Barbara should be happier paralyzed and not feel like the lost anything, and that bugs me a lot. Because it's not how she actually felt and because it's not true - even if she were to think she ended up gaining more than she lost, she absolutely lost something. Also a lot of fic writers just completely ignore many of the issues that would come with complete paralysis below the waist (nowhere more obvious than smut fic) and act like she just can't can feel below mid-thigh, but has no other issues at all. To be fair, the comics do that, too sometimes. It's much the same bullet wounds and head injuries, so I don't know why it bothers me here when I can take a tv-coma without blinking. And, in-universe, there is nothing she can do while paralyzed that she couldn't do without being paralyzed. She wouldn't suddenly lose her computer skills or personal growth, from her perspective.


    As with a particular era of Batgirl, I have a particular era of Barbara as Oracle. Later she, like the others, started absorbing more of Batman's bad traits and treating her allies poorly and so forth. Very annoying. I'm also very much against the post-COIE setup of her having been Batman's protege and of youthifying her to make her younger on starting and so forth.

    I did like the dynamic with her and Cass to start. Did not like what they did with Steph at all. I don't like her being the boss of Steph any more than I like Batman the boss of Barbara. I feel it was a demotion for Steph (very unpopular opinion), and I especially disliked her as teacher, too, so she's in authority over Steph in more than one aspect of her life. I also don't have the legacy fondness many do. I like heroes having their own names and deeply dislike them giving up identities they forged to take one someone else's (Steph and Bart).

    Of course that protege continues in New 52 with Barbara being even younger when becoming Batgirl and not even getting to an adult hero operating independently before present, really. I haven't read much of, but I understand they even had Bruce fire her? Yuck. I don't like him having that type of authority over her ever. Nor over any of the others after they are adults. And she's way less mature than we'd ever seen her - I hated seeing mature adult heroes become less mature quasi-kids.

    Also, I think many of the Batfamily, including Barbara have become too super-geniusy at way too many things since the 2000s. Batman probably earlier.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-28-2020 at 12:38 PM.

  9. #294
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I love Babs but I been wondering do people love Batgirl over Oracle for Babs?
    The general audience knows Batgirl more and DC is perfectly happy with that.

  10. #295
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean didn't Young Justice have Oracle now and Steph is Batgirl? I think that's one way. Because I think it's time for a wider audience to learn the other Batgirl. I love Babs, I mean whatever hero names could she take? I mean Oracle could still be her own while she is crime-fighting.

    Okay with the whole genius think where should Babs and the rest be. I don't mind if they're are genius it's more of a slight realism might be better.

  11. #296
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I mean didn't Young Justice have Oracle now and Steph is Batgirl? I think that's one way. Because I think it's time for a wider audience to learn the other Batgirl. I love Babs, I mean whatever hero names could she take? I mean Oracle could still be her own while she is crime-fighting.

    Okay with the whole genius think where should Babs and the rest be. I don't mind if they're are genius it's more of a slight realism might be better.
    She was Oracle, but neither Steph nor Cass were Batgirl yet for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I did like the dynamic with her and Cass to start. Did not like what they did with Steph at all. I don't like her being the boss of Steph any more than I like Batman the boss of Barbara. I feel it was a demotion for Steph (very unpopular opinion), and I especially disliked her as teacher, too, so she's in authority over Steph in more than one aspect of her life. I also don't have the legacy fondness many do. I like heroes having their own names and deeply dislike them giving up identities they forged to take one someone else's (Steph and Bart).
    I didn't really think of her as Steph's boss moreso then a mentor and operator, but I enjoy those kind of legacy relationships so it's not something that would have really bothered me. But I thought it showed Babs in a good light as an experienced hero with a strong sense of legacy.
    Of course that protege continues in New 52 with Barbara being even younger when becoming Batgirl and not even getting to an adult hero operating independently before present, really. I haven't read much of, but I understand they even had Bruce fire her? Yuck. I don't like him having that type of authority over her ever. Nor over any of the others after they are adults. And she's way less mature than we'd ever seen her - I hated seeing mature adult heroes become less mature quasi-kids.
    I don't remember Bruce firing her. It's more like she fired herself because she didn't feel worthy of wearing the bat-symbol after believing she killed her brother.

  12. #297
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay if Babs were to have her own movie should it follow what most origins do? Or a new one. Also, has her father ever known who she was?

  13. #298
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Okay if Babs were to have her own movie should it follow what most origins do?
    I didn't know any of the other media followed anything consistent. B:TAS, and The Batman, and the old Batman show all had different versions and I don't recall any matching the first comic version.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Also, has her father ever known who she was?
    Yes, he has. He knew from 1971 until COIE, at least (I'm really not sure if he knew in early post-Crisis or not). She slipped up and referred to him as "Dad.".
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-28-2020 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #299
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I thought the animated one followed her Adam West origin. I know Batman: Brave and the Bold recalls her Adam West origin.

  15. #300
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I thought the animated one followed her Adam West origin. I know Batman: Brave and the Bold recalls her Adam West origin.
    Maybe. It's been a loooong time since I watched it.

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