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  1. #811
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Pretty good analysis, also is good to see you Redbird, it has been a while.
    Hey, thanks TheCape!

    Good to see you too

  2. #812
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    Was never a fan of it, but Bruce and Babs is an especially bad idea in todays social climate.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-25-2020 at 03:37 PM.

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Was never a fan of it, but Bruce and Babs is an especially bad idea in todays social climate.
    it would not fly

  4. #814
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Can we just have Babs be single for at least a whole year?
    Agreed. And I think this question hits to a core problem with a lot of the canonical (that is, done by DC or its licensees) shipping. A single male hero is OK, or a male hero with other relationships that are at handled as being as important as a romantical relationship. But it's mostly not the case for the female heroes. A woman should, under these patterns, be attached to (and thus in some way under control of) a man.

    DC is by far not alone in this, they have inherited it from culture at large. A good girl should have a boyfriend.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    Kind of how I feel on the matter. It doesn't really bother me, even if a little suspect Jason and Dick aren't even that close, not how Grayson is with Damian and Tim at least. I'll take this 10x over Bruce/Babs.

    On another note, never did view the Babs/Dick romantic link on the same level as; Bruce/Selina, or even Tim/Steph, largely due to their relationship in that regard not sustaining for long(mainly due to the both of them having their own series and adventures to follow), and also Dick having a large romantic link with Starfire takes away from it as well.

    I also don't agree with the whole notion of 'Babs being passed around'. In regards to Bruce and especially Tim(if we can really call Arkham Tim.. you know, Tim), her romantic link with those two were at least non cannon, Babs/Tim only happened in the game because of the whole Batgirl/Robin angle, feel confident in saying that. Neither really have any barring on what we're seeing now in the story. Luke really isn't close with the robins, so again, I see no problem with him and Babs.
    From a storytelling standpoint, having Babs jump around between what is for all purposes a set of brothers can work, as long as it is the point of the story. But it's not. It's cheap and lazy storytelling that's only there because the creators want to include a romantic angle, without having to do the work of a romantic angle. So I think the take that Babs is passed around is a perfect take on it. Each relationship, taken on its own, can be made perfectly fine, but they really aren't made fine, and taken together they start to smell.

    That's also part of why the original Dixon and Simone Birds of Prey runs were so important, because Babs was allowed to have important relationships with other women, that were treated to be as important as—or more important than—her connection with Dick.
    Last edited by kjn; 09-26-2020 at 04:07 AM.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Agreed. And I think this question hits to a core problem with a lot of the canonical (that is, done by DC or its licensees) shipping. A single male hero is OK, or a male hero with other relationships that are at handled as being as important as a romantical relationship. But it's mostly not the case for the female heroes. A woman should, under these patterns, be attached to (and thus in some way under control of) a man.

    DC is by far not alone in this, they have inherited it from culture at large. A good girl should have a boyfriend.
    However, according to that culture, a good girl shouldn't have many different boyfriends either.

    In fact, Dick and Jason have different girlfriends all the time (I don't think they are single a whole year either). So, it will be weird that Barbara is the only one that needs to be single.

    In the same way it is weird that (so far) Barbara doesn't seem to have a bed scene with a character that isn't Dick, but Dick has bed scenes with different characters.


    PS: A single male hero wasn't exactly so good in that culture either (the male character shouldn't be celibate at least). I have understood it was a problem so big that they created the first Batwoman and Bat-Girl to solve that.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-26-2020 at 04:08 AM.

  6. #816
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    The problem was that people mistook Bruce and Dick's relationship for homosexual. So they gave them both love interests.
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  7. #817
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    However, according to that culture, a good girl shouldn't have many different boyfriends either.
    Yep, which adds another wrinkle to the equation, complicated by that DC is much less capable of introducing and sustaining women as superheroes or sidekicks than they are of introducing men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    In fact, Dick and Jason have different girldfriends all the time (I don't think they are single a whole year either). So, it will be weird that Barbara is the only one that needs to be single.

    In the same way it is weird that (so far) Barbara doesn't seem to have a bed scene with a character that isn't Dick, but Dick has bed scenes with different characters.

    PS: A single male hero wasn't exactly so good in that culture. I have understood it was a problem so big that they created the first Batwoman and Bat-Girl to solve that.
    AIUI, the original Batwoman and Bat-Girl were created to address the accusations of homo-eroticism between Batman and Robin.

    There is also a different dynamic for romantic relationships between the genders. A female character is seen as needing a husband or boyfriend. But for a male character, a wife or girlfriend—or even a one-night-stand—is viewed as a sign of success. Female characters are defined by their relationships to a much larger degree than male characters.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    The problem was that people mistook Bruce and Dick's relationship for homosexual. So they gave them both love interests.
    I know. That is still related that the culture wouldn't be OK with single male heroes.

    My main problem with the argument "it is OK that male heroes are single, but it isn't for female héroes" is with the characters that is used.

    I have problems if it is used to show that Barbara should be single, because every male main character in the Batfamily has romantic love interests (or sex, at least) all the time.


    PS: Also, it is always sad that the big problem they have with a ronantic relationship between Bruce and Dick was homosexuality. There was a lot of real problems in a romantic relationship there.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-26-2020 at 04:38 AM.

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yep, which adds another wrinkle to the equation, complicated by that DC is much less capable of introducing and sustaining women as superheroes or sidekicks than they are of introducing men.



    AIUI, the original Batwoman and Bat-Girl were created to address the accusations of homo-eroticism between Batman and Robin.

    There is also a different dynamic for romantic relationships between the genders. A female character is seen as needing a husband or boyfriend. But for a male character, a wife or girlfriend—or even a one-night-stand—is viewed as a sign of success. Female characters are defined by their relationships to a much larger degree than male characters.
    I mean, I understand the dynamic for romantic relationships between the genders is different.

    That's why I'm uncomfortable that DC only seems to allow bed scenes for Barbara if these are with Dick (obviously, the opposite isn't true).

    However, I don't think the answer is that the female heroes should be single, while the male heroes are allowed to constantly have female love interests (or one-night-stand).


    Not to mention that, in Barbara's case, she could be single in her stories, but she will still be linked to Dick (in the "Will They or Won't They?" trope).
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-26-2020 at 05:11 AM.

  10. #820
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    However, according to that culture, a good girl shouldn't have many different boyfriends either.

    In fact, Dick and Jason have different girlfriends all the time (I don't think they are single a whole year either). So, it will be weird that Barbara is the only one that needs to be single.

    In the same way it is weird that (so far) Barbara doesn't seem to have a bed scene with a character that isn't Dick, but Dick has bed scenes with different characters.


    PS: A single male hero wasn't exactly so good in that culture either (the male character shouldn't be celibate at least). I have understood it was a problem so big that they created the first Batwoman and Bat-Girl to solve that.
    Babs has had quite a bit of throwaway boyfriends and love interests since her return to Batgirl. At least as many, if not more, then Dick and Jason. The thing with the bed scenes though is that Batgirl is also marketed to a younger audience more so then they are.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-26-2020 at 12:05 PM.

  11. #821
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Yeah, these things are quite messy. And if we get a return to Oracle, then a lot of the usual narratives for women and relations suddenly gets changed, and that she was depicted as a sexual being (even if objectified) and sorta-dating Dick was a huge thing, because that's something usually denied disabled people.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I have understood it was a problem so big that they created the first Batwoman and Bat-Girl to solve that.
    I love Kathy and Betty

  13. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    I love Kathy and Betty
    I like Betty too (I hadn't read enough about Kathy to have an opinion). My only point is that was related to their creation.

  14. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Babs has had quite a bit of throwaway boyfriends and love interests since her return to Batgirl. At least as many, if not more, the Dick and Jason. The thing with the bed scenes though is that Batgirl is also marketed to a younger audience more so then they are.
    My commentary was connected about the first commentary that says "Can we just have Babs be single for at least a whole year?".

    I know Barbara has throwaway boyfriends, like Dick and Jason have throwaway girlfriends. However, I don't usually see people saying Dick or Jason should be single for one year.

    I've understood Batgirl comic is marketed to the same audience than Nightwing and Red Hood. And Barbara still has bed scenes with Dick (although I think this doesn't happen in Batgirl comic).
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-26-2020 at 12:12 PM.

  15. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I like Betty too (I hadn't read enough about Kathy to have an opinion). My only point is that was related to their creation.
    Kathy's pretty cool. Her and Betty were an adorable mother/daughter duo

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