Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[AmiMizuno]

I mean if you get the basic of the character of Star you can do anything. She was a princess and her sister hated her. They patch things up. Many writers have taken many characters that no one knew what to do with and did something with them. So it’s not impossible. I mean Starfire comic did work well. So it’s not like it’s impossible for her to get character development. I mean she lost everything and still made things work for herself.

[Konja7]

That's because DC has purposefully stunted Babsgirl. As Oracle, Babs and Dick worked beautifully together.

I don't totally agree.

Before Pre-Flashpoint, Barbara as Oracle returned to Gotham st the end. Even if she has international missions with BOP, the centre was still on Gotham.

In theory, DC could make exactly the same for Barbara as Batgirl, but they don't want her too far from Gotham.

It is similar for Dick, since they don't really left him get too far from Gotham either.

[Frontier]

Starfire is just a character and love interest that lacks utility. I know she has a lot of fans, and I wouldn't say she is a bad character, but you can't do very much with her because she is this superpowered orange alien with fire for hair from an alien race that isn't all that important in the DCU. For modern stories it is a bit of an issue. When you look at romances from Marvel or DC it is incredibly rare for a normal human character to date a superpowered alien-looking character. That isn't a coincidence. It is very tough to make romances like that work now.

Even when Lobdell had Starfire and Roy become a couple in the New 52 he immediately ran into problems with her in the Outlaws book where he had to find ways to write around the fact that she is a superpowered character. You are limited in what you can really do for stories, and everything that can be done with her and Dick together has already been told too. They can't really just start dating casually when they were nearly married. I'm not saying that Dick and Babs is any better, nor do I want them together, but she is a character you can do a lot more with in modern comics, especially in the Batman family of books, I feel like.

I think it's more of an issue of the debate between Dick being a Titans character (where he's more connected to Starfire) rather than a Bat character (where he's more tied to Barbara).

[Tsukiakari1203]

That's because DC has purposefully stunted Babsgirl. As Oracle, Babs and Dick worked beautifully together.

I hundred percent agree. Dickbabs right now feels wrong and uneven. Back when she was Oracle and they were dating they felt like they were on equal footing.

[AmiMizuno]

Yea. That’s the issue. He can’t be a titan and a Batfam. He can’t truly leave Gotham. Dc wants that status quota. Dick and Babs can’t unless they make them cut ties. I mean Babs wasn’t in the Titans. Dick should be in the Titans and Batfam.

[Badou]

I think it's more of an issue of the debate between Dick being a Titans character (where he's more connected to Starfire) rather than a Bat character (where he's more tied to Barbara).

Those 80s NTT stories were written very differently to how modern stories are written though. Things like them all living in Titans Tower as older teens, Starfire working as a model, all the melodrama, and so on aren't really how stories are told today. I just don't think Starfire is a character that has a lot of utility for modern stories because of her being a superpowered orange alien stuck on Earth. You are limited in the kind of stories you can tell with her while Batgirl as a romance you aren't as limited. Then there is the issue of Dick and Starfire's romance having covered basically all there is to cover too. There is no new ground. Batgirl generally works easier because she is a very similar character where Dick can be a Batman character and date her or he can even be a Titans character and date her and it isn't out of place, but Starfire is limited to just one of those in specific situations.

I mean look at that live action Titans show. Starfire in it is just a black woman basically, but in the comics she is much more alien-looking. Had they adapted her 100% a romance between Dick and this orange alien with fire for hair would have been kind of awkward to show, right? To make it work they have to make her look more and more human. That is what I'm talking about. Those kind of romances with a human and an alien-looking character are very rare these days.

[AmiMizuno]

I don’t know a good writer can do anything. I mean Starfire could easily appear in other books. It’s the fact writers don’t know what to do with her. Much like how they don’t know what to do with Babs. Vampirella has been around for a long time. Starfire’s own comic worked fine. Maybe he shouldn't date any of them. Maybe he should be single if Dc is going to go back and forth. I love both pairs. I just think it's maybe time to skip the two pair.

[Frontier]

Those 80s NTT stories were written very differently to how modern stories are written though. Things like them all living in Titans Tower as older teens, Starfire working as a model, all the melodrama, and so on aren't really how stories are told today. I just don't think Starfire is a character that has a lot of utility for modern stories because of her being a superpowered orange alien stuck on Earth. You are limited in the kind of stories you can tell with her while Batgirl as a romance you aren't as limited. Then there is the issue of Dick and Starfire's romance having covered basically all there is to cover too. There is no new ground. Batgirl generally works easier because she is a very similar character where Dick can be a Batman character and date her or he can even be a Titans character and date her and it isn't out of place, but Starfire is limited to just one of those in specific situations.

I mean look at that live action Titans show. Starfire in it is just a black woman basically, but in the comics she is much more alien-looking. Had they adapted her 100% a romance between Dick and this orange alien with fire for hair would have been kind of awkward to show, right? To make it work they have to make her look more and more human. That is what I'm talking about. Those kind of romances with a human and an alien-looking character are very rare these days.

I mean, I dunno. I think Starfire as a super-powered orange alien stuck on Earth is plenty popular, just looking at her reception in the cartoons. A show like Titans doesn't really have the budget to do her or some of the other Titans justice (I mean, look at how they handled Beast Boy).

The Titans Tower setting is well-established and accepted, I think.

[Badou]

I mean, I dunno. I think Starfire as a super-powered orange alien stuck on Earth is plenty popular, just looking at her reception in the cartoons. A show like Titans doesn't really have the budget to do her or some of the other Titans justice (I mean, look at how they handled Beast Boy).

The Titans Tower setting is well-established and accepted, I think.

But even in the cartoon they had to make her look more human so she could be more relatable, and the cartoon is very different from the comics as well. Then a lot of the cartoon dynamic was about her adapting to life on Earth, but that doesn't work in the comics when she has been here for like a decade. The cartoon version was just very different to her comic's version.

I mean can anyone name another romance where there is a normal human and an alien-looking character that is working in comics now? One that was a long term romance before? Or even one that is in the cartoons and live action adaptations? All I can really think for a current one is Star-Lord and Gamora in the movies, but they have the luxury of being in space for their setting. It's a type of relationship that is very difficult to do in modern comics now I think.

[WonderNight]

Even if babs returned to Oracle that wouldn't fix the problem of dick and babs. Dick's character growth is about him movie on from Gotham and the bat into his own,Barbra as a character is all about Gotham and the bat.

Remember when the batgirl movie new was happening? People were saying maybe nightwing should be in it. But that's the problem, nightwing would just be running around Gotham fighting bat villains. At that point he mind as well be Robin again.

Nightwing needs to grow beyond the batfamily and Gotham or his just going to be batman oldest sidekick and the character DC what'd to kill off because he's redundant and serves no purpose.

[Frontier]

But even in the cartoon they had to make her look more human so she could be more relatable, and the cartoon is very different from the comics as well. Then a lot of the cartoon dynamic was about her adapting to life on Earth, but that doesn't work in the comics when she has been here for like a decade. The cartoon version was just very different to her comic's version.

I mean can anyone name another romance where there is a normal human and an alien-looking character that is working in comics now? One that was a long term romance before? Or even one that is in the cartoons and live action adaptations? All I can really think for a current one is Star-Lord and Gamora in the movies, but they have the luxury of being in space for their setting. It's a type of relationship that is very difficult to do in modern comics now I think.

I don't think her design in the show was that much more human looking compared to the comics. They toned down her skin color but otherwise it wasn't much different to me. I don't think she needs to be a fresh to Earth ingenue anymore either, but I think the show still retained the core of the character.

Does there need to be a precedent? I don't think that's what's holding back Dick and Kori any more than Bat Editorial prioritizing Nightwing and comic writers not seeming to be all that nostalgic for the relationship as much as they are the DickxBabs relationship.

[AmiMizuno]

Big Bab is an Alien in many ways. Once again not really writers just don't want to do it. The issue remains if he is with Batgirl he is more tied to Batman. They have to have both Batgirl and Dick be out of Gotham but that isn't going to happen at least not with Babs. Dick has done work with the Titans and JL. So it's not like he is always in Gotham. This is why I kind of feel that Babs relationship isn't a thing until they let her just not be Batgirl and she moves out of Gotham. The best thing is a combination of the two.

Diana was written to be out of a fish story and then they were able to flesh her out more after that. So it's not like they can't make Starfire more of a character with or without Nightwing in her life.

[Badou]

I don't think her design in the show was that much more human looking compared to the comics. They toned down her skin color but otherwise it wasn't much different to me. I don't think she needs to be a fresh to Earth ingenue anymore either, but I think the show still retained the core of the character.

Does there need to be a precedent? I don't think that's what's holding back Dick and Kori any more than Bat Editorial prioritizing Nightwing and comic writers not seeming to be all that nostalgic for the relationship as much as they are the DickxBabs relationship.

I think her design was pretty different. But my point is that even if Dick and Starfire started dating I don't think it would really work anymore for the list of reasons I said. Even if Dick was a Titans character again. Their romance was something very of its time, and in modern comics you are heavily limited in the kind of stories you can tell with them together. Babs isn't limited in those ways and offers much more utility, imo. I say this as someone that doesn't want either relationship but this feels obvious to me.

And I never said it was the only factor holding them back, but it is a factor. It not being something that you are seeing work across modern stories is kind of a big deal wouldn't you think? It is a romance that has far more obstacles than most relationships that goes beyond just which editorial department Dick's character is in. Just go back and look at how the Starfire and Roy romance was handled. They constantly had to undermine or write around the characters to make it work and it kind of failed. It would be the same thing for Dick and Starfire again, but people want to ignore that.

[AmiMizuno]

But with Babs it's no different she is still tied to Gotham while Nightwing wants to help his family his other commits are also to Bludhaven.OVerall Dc should just make Dick Single. I mean if we look at it from a real-life point Starfire is now a naturalized, citizen. It's not like we can't build off this. It's not like there aren't real couples If it's really just going to be Babs or Star nearly dividing the base then no. He should just stick to being single or the current girlfriend. That way no one gets what they want. We just can have elsewhere stories of either relationship The issue with Babs is they will always have her tied to Gotham that's a no-no. With star, it's not just her being an alien but changing the status quota. With Babs, it's sticking to it

[Badou]

But with Babs it's no different she is still tied to Gotham while Nightwing wants to help his family his other commits are also to Bludhaven.OVerall Dc should just make Dick Single. I mean if we look at it from a real-life point Starfire is now a naturalized, citizen. It's not like we can't build off this. It's not like there aren't real couples If it's really just going to be Babs or Star nearly dividing the base then no. He should just stick to being single or the current girlfriend. That way no one gets what they want. We just can have elsewhere stories of either relationship The issue with Babs is they will always have her tied to Gotham that's a no-no. With star, it's not just her being an alien but changing the status quota. With Babs, it's sticking to it

I just can't agree with that. Babs works as a romance if Dick is a solo Batman character, a Titans character, or something else because both characters operate in a similar way. Just look at Tim and Steph dating each other while running around in the Young Justice book. That wouldn't be too different if it was Dick and Babs, or you have Dick and Babs dating on the Young Justice show. Starfire only works if Dick is a Titans character and in a specific way. That is what I mean by Starfire lacking utility as a romantic option. You are very limited in the kind of stories you can tell with Starfire because she is a superpowered alien. I mean how would you fit Starfire into modern solo Niwhgting stories that have been the status quo for 25 years now? She doesn't really have a place in them and the only way to make her fit is to write Dick's solo more like a Titans book.

The only reason Dick and Babs don't work isn't because she is tied to Gotham, since they worked when she was tied to Gotham as Oracle, but because both are solo characters with their own books. It's very rare for two characters to date when each are solo characters with their own title. Writers just prefer to have a romantic option they can control and that doesn't work when each have their own book. So they just keep teasing the romance to keep it relevant but won't actually do anything with it in favor of focusing on options in their own book they can control.