Page 8 of 88 FirstFirst ... 4567891011121858 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 1306
  1. #106
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's defensible in the same way that making Dick Nightwing again after being Batman is defensible. What's really indefensible, as you point out so well, is deleting all her history - especially her relationships with Dinah, Helena, and above all, Steph and Cass.
    Yeah, you take that history from her and she is so much less a rich character because of it and you get stuff like Burnside which, while fine in it's own right, felt like a much shallower take on the character.

  2. #107
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,875

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's defensible in the same way that making Dick Nightwing again after being Batman is defensible. What's really indefensible, as you point out so well, is deleting all her history - especially her relationships with Dinah, Helena, and above all, Steph and Cass.
    Dick Grayson going from Nightwing to Batman and then back to being Nightwing again isn't really comparable. The comparable situation to Babs would be that Dick went from Robin to Nightwing and then back to Robin.

    To add to that, there are certain social expectations with the -girl moniker, which has continued to bite Babs in the butt.
    Last edited by kjn; 01-27-2020 at 02:53 AM. Reason: clarity
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #108
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,843

    Default

    Its not comparable cause Dick went from starring in multiple books with top tier creators, to one book with creators no one heard of. Babs went from being the Obi Wan in another Batgirl’s book, to the star of her own Batgirl book.

    And say what you want about Burnside, but that kind of experimentation and new world building is something Oracle would no longer see. So while she lost history yes, as was the New 52, she eventually gained opportunities for new takes. Ideally I’d prefer they try new things with Oracle to further grow her as a character, but that wasn’t happening.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-27-2020 at 01:34 AM.

  4. #109
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    36,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They flat out deleted Helena, Steph, and Cass.
    Yeah, the Rebirth Birds of Prey series had Barbara and Dinah meet Huntress - and they had no history together, despite that they also mentioned that the old Birds of Prey team disbanded when Barbara got out of the chair and became Batgirl again (retconning out the New 52 run and seemingly restoring the original one - except for Helena's involvement!). And Batgirl of Burnside, when Steph showed up there, they didn't know each other. Babs, of course, had been a mentor to both of the other Batgirls.

    Hopefully that'll all be fixed soon.
    Appreciation Thread Indexes
    Marvel | Spider-Man | X-Men | NEW!! DC Comics | Batman | Superman | Wonder Woman

  5. #110
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    263

    Default

    My main difficulty with Burnside era Batgirl arc isn't that it wasn't good storytelling, I'm willing to take that on faith, it's the fact that from what I can tell, they could just as easily have tweaked it to use Steph, building on the successful and well regarded Batgirl (2009) in a more progressive rather than regressive way. Which IMO is a the most common, accurate complaint about Nu52.

  6. #111
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    9,338

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Dick Grayson going from Nightwing to Batman and then back to being Nightwing again isn't really comparable. The comparable situation to Babs would be that Dick went from Robin to Nightwing and then back to Robin.
    Not really Batgirl is (at least ins Babs incarnation) more compatible to Nightwing as to Robin. Started as an adult and operated mostly independently of Batman.

  7. #112
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrock Holmes View Post
    My main difficulty with Burnside era Batgirl arc isn't that it wasn't good storytelling, I'm willing to take that on faith, it's the fact that from what I can tell, they could just as easily have tweaked it to use Steph, building on the successful and well regarded Batgirl (2009) in a more progressive rather than regressive way. Which IMO is a the most common, accurate complaint about Nu52.
    A lot of the difficulty people had with anything they did with Babs as Batgirl could often boiled down to not my Batgirl.

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    10,388

    Default

    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.

  9. #114
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,843

    Default

    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-27-2020 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #115
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    36,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    As Futures End teased. Babs quit, and her three proteges took over. Two of whom were Cass and Steph.
    Appreciation Thread Indexes
    Marvel | Spider-Man | X-Men | NEW!! DC Comics | Batman | Superman | Wonder Woman

  11. #116
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    12,796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    100% on board with Babs leading a League of Batgirls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    As Futures End teased. Babs quit, and her three proteges took over. Two of whom were Cass and Steph.
    I liked the Future's End one-shot, but I would have preferred Nell Little instead of Tiffany Fox. And Babs not quitting for silly reasons.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  12. #117
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    To add to that, there are certain social expectations with the -girl moniker, which has continued to bite Babs in the butt.
    If we're talking how her characterization was handled with Burnside, I would agree, but in general I don't think using the -girl moniker has to be a negative.

    Supergirl going by Supergirl didn't infantile her character on her TV show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    It would probably be a reasonable attempt at placating all the Batgirl fans. Not that I see DC doing it.

  13. #118
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    12,796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It would probably be a reasonable attempt at placating all the Batgirl fans. Not that I see DC doing it.
    I would hope it would bring better sales than Babs' title is getting currently.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  14. #119
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I would hope it would bring better sales than Babs' title is getting currently.
    Maybe, although with 5G looming it probably won't be going on for much longer anyways.

  15. #120
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    36,490

    Default

    What do you think will happen? One of the others takes over the mantle (like when Babs was Oracle)? Babs retires and joins the police (like in Batman Beyond)? The Futures End status quo?
    Appreciation Thread Indexes
    Marvel | Spider-Man | X-Men | NEW!! DC Comics | Batman | Superman | Wonder Woman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •