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  1. #271
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think you're being unfair to Marieke Nijkamp, and comparing the book you got with the book that you wanted, rather than reading the book that you got.
    […]
    Actually not: if she uses the name Oracle in the title of her book, she makes a promises to her readers: «I'm going to tell you a story about Oracle» and her readers will buy her book just because of that promise, but if she doesn't maintain her promise, then we are facing the classical Chekov's gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    […]
    The main theme of the book is Babs coming to terms with her changed body, and it arguably places it even more on-camera than any earlier Oracle story, perhaps because Nijkamp has a real background with these types of institutions and with disabilities. The psychological mechanism where Babs's denies help as a way to deny what has happened to her feels very real, and so does that the way out of that self-defeating pattern is to set out to help someone asking for help.
    […]
    I think you didn't understand what I wrote: in this story we see Barbara enter in this Arkham Institute, start the rehabilitation, face a mystery and at this point the book end, so we have in this book two plot: the plot of a girl who have to deal with her paralysis and the "dear old plot" of the secret experiments made on human guinea pigs. This is the actual problem I was talking about: the writer didn't told about how her Barbara deals with her paralysis, instead she use this mystery and the final fight against the bad guy to solve the story. In fact we see the bad guy defeated and immediately after the fight all the anger, all the resentment her Barbara had is "magically" vanished, like if the fight was the cathartic experience she needed to heal her soul. You have all the right to have different opinions about this way to write, but to me it is a very childish way to solve a plot, I thought it was childish in movies like "Happy feet" and I think it is childish in this book; so like you see it isn't a problem of book i thought to read, it is a problem a storytelling.

  2. #272
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think you didn't understand what I wrote: in this story we see Barbara enter in this Arkham Institute, start the rehabilitation, face a mystery and at this point the book end, so we have in this book two plot: the plot of a girl who have to deal with her paralysis and the "dear old plot" of the secret experiments made on human guinea pigs. This is the actual problem I was talking about: the writer didn't told about how her Barbara deals with her paralysis, instead she use this mystery and the final fight against the bad guy to solve the story. In fact we see the bad guy defeated and immediately after the fight all the anger, all the resentment her Barbara had is "magically" vanished, like if the fight was the cathartic experience she needed to heal her soul. You have all the right to have different opinions about this way to write, but to me it is a very childish way to solve a plot, I thought it was childish in movies like "Happy feet" and I think it is childish in this book; so like you see it isn't a problem of book i thought to read, it is a problem a storytelling.
    On the title, this is a classic origin story. It's as much an Oracle story as, say, Born of Hope.

    As for "deals with her paralysis", it's an ongoing process for Babs, but the key is her decision to help Jena. That is the decision that Babs makes that makes it possible to rebuild her sense of self-worth and her social connections.

    Solving the mystery is of course important, in affirming that she is just as—if not more—capable of solving puzzles as before, and in rescuing the lost children, but to me Babs in this story became Oracle the moment she decided to find Jena.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #273
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea this is her first outing. Has she said is this what it’s like to be Batman. So I have to ask where is Dick? Is he not cannon in this universe?

    Anyway who would be a good Babs actor?

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea this is her first outing. Has she said is this what it’s like to be Batman. So I have to ask where is Dick? Is he not cannon in this universe?

    Anyway who would be a good Babs actor?
    Anna Kendrick

  5. #275
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Barbara in the trailer for the second season of the Harley Quinn cartoon:


  6. #276
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    45 was quite wordy, but I guess there is the KG Beast confrontation coming. Not gonna lie though, from this issue it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be as big a deal as the solicitation for 46 suggests.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-25-2020 at 09:00 AM.

  7. #277
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Barbara's been aged down multiple times, but have there been a characterization change every time that happened?

  8. #278
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Barbara's been aged down multiple times, but have there been a characterization change every time that happened?
    Maybe not a characterization change, but her relationship with Bruce and Dick have been impacted by it, I feel.

  9. #279
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Dick was often juvenile in Grayson. Annoying the hell out of his partners.
    I so miss the mature Dick of the old days. I really like who he used to be. Can't say I've read much of him in a long while. I check him out here and there, but usually didn't care for what I saw. And that was before Ric.

    It's also distressing how every romantic relationship has to be a roller coaster. It seems like any couple with enough years of history gets to the point where you have to sweep it under the rug or else just think they are bad for each other and need to move on. I do think that writers have gotten to the point where they think lots of conflict between romantic partners (or allies or family) is the only way they can be interesting. I think it can be interesting for one storyline, but when it keeps happening (and it seems to always repeat), the entire dynamic just becomes toxic. But I will also consider I may just be too dang old. I could enjoy the make-up-break-up (though not cheating, lies, or jerkish behavior - never liked a bad boy) when I was in my teens and earlier 20s. Now it's just irritating that no one thinks a stable, positive, healthy relationship amidst fighting villains can be entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe not a characterization change, but her relationship with Bruce and Dick have been impacted by it, I feel.
    I have a particular hostility to her being shifted to a protege of Bruce's. It's one of those things that the more I think about, the more I dislike. Kinda like Alfred-the-parent-to-Bruce. As long as she doesn't date Dick until he's an adult (and she didn't, as originally played out) they don't need to be the same age. And I don't feel like the Bruce/Barbara vibe was ever heavy in the comics, even in the early days. Though there was that one issue, that was ghastly disservice to both Barbara and Diana. Nor do I like the idea of a underage Dick deeply crushing on her or carrying a torch for her for years (even if I do ship them when done in a way I do like - as two adults).

    While Barbara has gone though characterization changes (who hasn't?), I don't feel like they were correlated with the deagings prior to at least 2000 (haven't read as much of the later Batstuff), the way I know it was with New52.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-25-2020 at 06:04 PM.

  10. #280
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I so miss the mature Dick of the old days. I really like who he used to be. Can't say I've read much of him in a long while. I check him out here and there, but usually didn't care for what I saw. And that was before Ric.

    It's also distressing how every romantic relationship has to be a roller coaster. It seems like any couple with enough years of history gets to the point where you have to sweep it under the rug or else just think they are bad for each other and need to move on. I do think that writers have gotten to the point where they think lots of conflict between romantic partners (or allies or family) is the only way they can be interesting. I think it can be interesting for one storyline, but when it keeps happening (and it seems to always repeat), the entire dynamic just becomes toxic. But I will also consider I may just be too dang old. I could enjoy the make-up-break-up (though not cheating, lies, or jerkish behavior - never liked a bad boy) when I was in my teens and earlier 20s. Now it's just irritating that no one thinks a stable, positive, healthy relationship amidst fighting villains can be entertaining.
    I think Dick is mature but he acts juevenile to mess with people. It's a performance, in part.
    I have a particular hostility to her being shifted to a protege of Bruce's. It's one of those things that the more I think about, the more I dislike. Kinda like Alfred-the-parent-to-Bruce. As long as she doesn't date Dick until he's an adult (and she didn't, as originally played out) they don't need to be the same age. And I don't feel like the Bruce/Barbara vibe was ever heavy in the comics, even in the early days. Though there was that one issue, that was ghastly disservice to both Barbara and Diana. Nor do I like the idea of a underage Dick deeply crushing on her or carrying a torch for her for years (even if I do ship them when done in a way I do like - as two adults).

    While Barbara has gone though characterization changes (who hasn't?), I don't feel like they were correlated with the deagings prior to at least 2000 (haven't read as much of the later Batstuff), the way I know it was with New52.
    I'm personally kind of fascinated by Bruce and Babs relationship (in a heavy non-romantic sense) and I prefer a Batgirl who's more into the core Batfamily then one who's just off on her own even though they end up working together enough to where she practically is part of the team.

    I think Dick and Babs being the same age is cute. Maybe make her one or two years older but I doubt we'd ever get as big an age difference as in the original books.

  11. #281
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    So nothing as extreme as "Batman is a jerk now" or "Cass Cain is evil once"? It's just age, but she acts as she would if she's that age?

  12. #282
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think Dick is mature but he acts juevenile to mess with people. It's a performance, in part.
    I don't like that. I liked that was less false (in a modern era) than Bruce. Plus, frankly, I find the juvenile attitude really annoying, not entertaining. And that the character doesn't get the respect he used to from anyone. He's not treated as anything like as mature, capable, intelligent, etc. as he used to be.

    I'm personally kind of fascinated by Bruce and Babs relationship (in a heavy non-romantic sense) and I prefer a Batgirl who's more into the core Batfamily then one who's just off on her own even though they end up working together enough to where she practically is part of the team.
    I admit that I don't. I like her forming a close relationship with Dick, as she initially did, with Batman on the periphery. A relationship that he wasn't part of - and certainly not one where he was the center they revolved around or the more important one to Barbara. Also, in modern times, everyone with a relationship to Bruce has to be subordinate to him, and I really don't like that. With an intensity that cannot be overstated.

    Maybe make her one or two years older but I doubt we'd ever get as big an age difference as in the original books.
    I agree with you we won't get it, but I'm disappointed about that.

  13. #283
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't like that. I liked that was less false (in a modern era) than Bruce. Plus, frankly, I find the juvenile attitude really annoying, not entertaining. And that the character doesn't get the respect he used to from anyone. He's not treated as anything like as mature, capable, intelligent, etc. as he used to be.
    As long as it's clear that beneath the veneer he's still intelligent and capable, I don't have a problem with the "act." Especially if his jokes are funny.

    I think he still gets a lot of respect from people, and tends to subvert the expectations of those who don't, at least from what I read. Particularly in Grayson and Tim Seeley's Nightwing run.
    I admit that I don't. I like her forming a close relationship with Dick, as she initially did, with Batman on the periphery. A relationship that he wasn't part of - and certainly not one where he was the center they revolved around or the more important one to Barbara. Also, in modern times, everyone with a relationship to Bruce has to be subordinate to him, and I really don't like that. With an intensity that cannot be overstated.
    I'm not positing that Bruce should be the most important relationship between the two of them, and obviously Babs' biggest relationship is with Jim, just that Bruce can be an important relationship for her. Preferably without her constantly needing to yell out or complain about him, which seems like the bulk of their major interaction these days.

    I prefer the term "partners" to "subordinate" .

    Of course, this is probably my bias showing from my first major experience with the Batfamily being the DCAU where Batgirl became a regular presence in the Batcave.
    I agree with you we won't get it, but I'm disappointed about that.
    I'm not really sure what it adds at this point to be honest. Other then reflecting original continuity but the general public are probably more used to a teenage or younger version of Babs as Batgirl then they are the adult librarian version.

  14. #284
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think he still gets a lot of respect from people, and tends to subvert the expectations of those who don't, at least from what I read. Particularly in Grayson and Tim Seeley's Nightwing run.
    We'll have to disagree. I see a lot more of his old peers not respecting him as much as they used to and that goes about triple for general comic fans. And like I said, not entertaining to me at all.

    I prefer the term "partners" to "subordinate" .
    If one person is in charge and giving the instructions, the at the very least are not equal partners.

    I'm not really sure what it adds at this point to be honest. Other then reflecting original continuity but the general public are probably more used to a teenage or younger version of Babs as Batgirl then they are the adult librarian version.
    I don't really care what the general public is used to. I mean, it matters to DC, of course, but not for my preferences. I feel she has been demoted from someone who debuted as independent hero, a peer, to sidekick (or rather, former side kick) in many regards. I don't like it. Even if everyone else loves it, I still don't like it. I don't care if she's a librarian at all. I do care that she comes on the scene as an independent hero, and that she never be an underling/sidekick/protege of Batman's. I do care that her dynamic and relationship to Dick be more important than the one to Bruce. I much prefer her running the BoP (preferably not out of building Bruce owns or with Bruce's equipment) than to running Batman's electronic security/IT, since that makes her seem like an employee to me. And it seems like "make work" since he manged his own just fine before she had the job. As Batgirl, I prefer her independent. It matters to me.

    And yes, her relationship to Jim is most important, but I don't see why it needs to be mentioned in this regard, which about Bruce and Dick. Unless you're comparing father/mentor figures, which I really dislike Batman in that role for her.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-26-2020 at 02:43 PM.

  15. #285
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    His peers not respecting him has nothing to do with him not being Batman-lite enough. It’s a general DC management issue, and the lack of character protection.

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