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  1. #106
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's defensible in the same way that making Dick Nightwing again after being Batman is defensible. What's really indefensible, as you point out so well, is deleting all her history - especially her relationships with Dinah, Helena, and above all, Steph and Cass.
    Yeah, you take that history from her and she is so much less a rich character because of it and you get stuff like Burnside which, while fine in it's own right, felt like a much shallower take on the character.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's defensible in the same way that making Dick Nightwing again after being Batman is defensible. What's really indefensible, as you point out so well, is deleting all her history - especially her relationships with Dinah, Helena, and above all, Steph and Cass.
    Dick Grayson going from Nightwing to Batman and then back to being Nightwing again isn't really comparable. The comparable situation to Babs would be that Dick went from Robin to Nightwing and then back to Robin.

    To add to that, there are certain social expectations with the -girl moniker, which has continued to bite Babs in the butt.
    Last edited by kjn; 01-27-2020 at 02:53 AM. Reason: clarity
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  3. #108
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    Its not comparable cause Dick went from starring in multiple books with top tier creators, to one book with creators no one heard of. Babs went from being the Obi Wan in another Batgirl’s book, to the star of her own Batgirl book.

    And say what you want about Burnside, but that kind of experimentation and new world building is something Oracle would no longer see. So while she lost history yes, as was the New 52, she eventually gained opportunities for new takes. Ideally I’d prefer they try new things with Oracle to further grow her as a character, but that wasn’t happening.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-27-2020 at 01:34 AM.

  4. #109
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They flat out deleted Helena, Steph, and Cass.
    Yeah, the Rebirth Birds of Prey series had Barbara and Dinah meet Huntress - and they had no history together, despite that they also mentioned that the old Birds of Prey team disbanded when Barbara got out of the chair and became Batgirl again (retconning out the New 52 run and seemingly restoring the original one - except for Helena's involvement!). And Batgirl of Burnside, when Steph showed up there, they didn't know each other. Babs, of course, had been a mentor to both of the other Batgirls.

    Hopefully that'll all be fixed soon.
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  5. #110
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    My main difficulty with Burnside era Batgirl arc isn't that it wasn't good storytelling, I'm willing to take that on faith, it's the fact that from what I can tell, they could just as easily have tweaked it to use Steph, building on the successful and well regarded Batgirl (2009) in a more progressive rather than regressive way. Which IMO is a the most common, accurate complaint about Nu52.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Dick Grayson going from Nightwing to Batman and then back to being Nightwing again isn't really comparable. The comparable situation to Babs would be that Dick went from Robin to Nightwing and then back to Robin.
    Not really Batgirl is (at least ins Babs incarnation) more compatible to Nightwing as to Robin. Started as an adult and operated mostly independently of Batman.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrock Holmes View Post
    My main difficulty with Burnside era Batgirl arc isn't that it wasn't good storytelling, I'm willing to take that on faith, it's the fact that from what I can tell, they could just as easily have tweaked it to use Steph, building on the successful and well regarded Batgirl (2009) in a more progressive rather than regressive way. Which IMO is a the most common, accurate complaint about Nu52.
    A lot of the difficulty people had with anything they did with Babs as Batgirl could often boiled down to not my Batgirl.

  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.

  9. #114
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-27-2020 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #115
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    As Futures End teased. Babs quit, and her three proteges took over. Two of whom were Cass and Steph.
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  11. #116
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    100% on board with Babs leading a League of Batgirls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    As Futures End teased. Babs quit, and her three proteges took over. Two of whom were Cass and Steph.
    I liked the Future's End one-shot, but I would have preferred Nell Little instead of Tiffany Fox. And Babs not quitting for silly reasons.
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  12. #117
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    To add to that, there are certain social expectations with the -girl moniker, which has continued to bite Babs in the butt.
    If we're talking how her characterization was handled with Burnside, I would agree, but in general I don't think using the -girl moniker has to be a negative.

    Supergirl going by Supergirl didn't infantile her character on her TV show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Babs as Batgirl is/was fine. What wasn't fine was erasing her history and relationships (friendships and mentorships). Her helping Cass function outside of the cowl and mentoring Steph to be Batgirl were both quite big for her. And honestly, I'm open to a "League of Batgirls", with Babs as the head of them.
    It would probably be a reasonable attempt at placating all the Batgirl fans. Not that I see DC doing it.

  13. #118
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It would probably be a reasonable attempt at placating all the Batgirl fans. Not that I see DC doing it.
    I would hope it would bring better sales than Babs' title is getting currently.
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  14. #119
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I would hope it would bring better sales than Babs' title is getting currently.
    Maybe, although with 5G looming it probably won't be going on for much longer anyways.

  15. #120
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    What do you think will happen? One of the others takes over the mantle (like when Babs was Oracle)? Babs retires and joins the police (like in Batman Beyond)? The Futures End status quo?
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