Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[sorboares]

Yeh I saw those pages and I hope she is just being Oracle while her implant is being fixed.

[Restingvoice]

Starting to see why Tynion implied they're all gonna be Batgirls. That seems to be the smartest decision if those are the response.

[sorboares]

Starting to see why Tynion implied they're all gonna be Batgirls. That seems to be the smartest decision if those are the response.

Id be happy with all of them being Batgirl and Babs is their leader or something like that but I wont be happy if Babs is Oracle again full time.

[Restingvoice]

I guess if the importance of Oracle is in disability representation they can always bring back Frankie Charles

[atomicbattery]

It does appear that, if Barbara is returning to disembodied head status, she now gets to wear a Batgirl top.

So there’s that

[kjn]

Oracle is important for far more than disability representation. It is an important piece, but I'd posit that even if you skip that aspect, Oracle would still be an important character from a meta-narrative standpoint. Oracle is at least as much a natural outgrowth from what was a derivative and supporting character to an independent character in their own right as Nightwing. Oracle also represents an intrinsic critique of the misogyny of DC and their handling of their female characters, and that's why I think there is a tendency within DC to try to destroy or discredit Oracle, like with the various evil robot Oracle stories floating around. Every time she wheels into the room she is a reminder that DC treated her—and other women—like ****. Babs as Oracle also carries a historic gravitas that is second to none among DC's characters.

Babs is the woman who walked out of the fridge, and she did so as Oracle.

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

The Killing Joke, says I to her
Her watching like a seer
They shot and raped and left you, Babs
Says Babs, But I'm still here
Says Babs, But I'm still here

The DC bosses wrote you out,
They turned you into grist
Takes more than pens to unwrite me
Says Babs, And I persist
Says Babs, And I persist

And sitting there as real as life
And smiling with her eyes
Babs says, What they can not erase
My life that I devise
My life that I devise

Oracle's here, she says to me
Oracle still abides
Where girls are fridg'd and written out
Oracle's at their sides
Oracle's at their sides

In songs and films and comic books
The valley and the hill
Where women build their life anew
You'll find Oracle still
You'll find Oracle still

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

[Digifiend]

I guess if the importance of Oracle is in disability representation they can always bring back Frankie Charles

And she's their second attempt at a replacement Oracle. Remember when Wendy and Marvin (the non-powered kids from the Superfriends cartoon) joined the Teen Titans? Marvin was killed, and Wendy ended up in a wheelchair. She moved to Steph's Batgirl series, where she took the identity of Proxy, taking over some of Barbara's duties with Steph (as her mission control) so that Babs could focus on the Birds of Prey.

Starting to see why Tynion implied they're all gonna be Batgirls. That seems to be the smartest decision if those are the response.

That's what it looks like to me too. Babs is doing oracle duties but is still also a Batgirl, while Cass and Steph both get the mantle back as well.

[sorboares]

And she's their second attempt at a replacement Oracle. Remember when Wendy and Marvin (the non-powered kids from the Superfriends cartoon) joined the Teen Titans? Marvin was killed, and Wendy ended up in a wheelchair. She moved to Steph's Batgirl series, where she took the identity of Proxy, taking over some of Barbara's duties with Steph (as her mission control) so that Babs could focus on the Birds of Prey.


That's what it looks like to me too. Babs is doing oracle duties but is still also a Batgirl, while Cass and Steph both get the mantle back as well.

Lets hope Babs still is a Batgirl and still goes on missions as Batgirl with the other 2 Batgirls but then she also helps as Oracle too.

Also why cant Frankie be Oracle? She is a great character to take over the Oracle role and I dont understand why DC havent done it yet?

How are they going to explain why Babs cant walk again? Does she choose to not walk again after Batgirl #47? That would be stupid after regaining her mobility it would be ridiculous that she chooses to not walk again. Do they try and say she cant get the chip fixed again? If so that's stupid coz other characters come back from the dead but she cant regain her mobility?

Leave Babs as Batgirl!

[Digifiend]

A lot of the information Oracle would "broker" could be done by an app now a days, the last BoP before the relaunch even kind of realized this, and Oracle's skill set has been so bastardize we have seen it with characters from Tim to Steph now. Oracle would need to be updated and modernized to make it fresh and unique beyond her disability, hell Oracle 10 years ago needed to be updated. Same as any character.

The Arrowverse proves it can still work. Felicity Smoak is basically an adaptation of Oracle, minus the disability. Cisco Ramone serves the same role for Team Flash, when he isn't being Vibe.

[Fergus]

I prefer Barbara as batgirl.

[Godlike13]

The Arrowverse proves it can still work. Felicity Smoak is basically an adaptation of Oracle, minus the disability. Cisco Ramone serves the same role for Team Flash, when he isn't being Vibe.

They prove it can work as a supporting character to announce information, they also prove that's not a particularly novel role. Im talking about making Oracle viable beyond being just a supporting character to the likes of Arrow or Flash, and beyond that generic person on the computer support role. Felicity Smoak is the trope Oracle needs to avoid.

[Frontier]

I don't think they were that different in terms of quality. It's just that before Cass and Steph's runs they never had their own solo stories. Their fans had nothing to compare it to and it felt character defining. It can make them feel a lot better than they actually were, and with what happened to their characters after their runs it elevated those runs even more in their fans' eyes. Babs had Batgirl Year One first and that was her defining story and it completely blows any other Batgirl story out of the water in my opinion. That is what I count as a great or defining story and nothing from Cass, Steph, or even Babs since her return came close to that. So maybe that is why I don't see Babs' Batgirl stories since the New 52 as being that dissimilar to Steph or Cass' runs.

I agree that collectively none of Babs' stores since she put on the suit again have been even close to the level of Year One, but that seems to be the only story people cite when it comes to worthwhile Babs as Batgirl stories, whereas I think collectively Cass and Steph's run hold up much better and more consistently than Babs' post New 52 run.

The traditional ongoing superhero comics are probably in as weak of a state as they have ever been in. I think the future is going to more original stories built for GNs, which it feels like DC is producing much more of recently, but because of how comics are now it is even more damaging to lose one of those iconic identities like a Robin or Batgirl. It's increasingly more difficult to stay relevant. A Red Robin or an Oracle don't have the staying power they did a decade or more ago. I look at a character like Tim and it feels like things are getting more and more difficult for him the longer he is removed from the Robin IP even when he was still using the Red Robin name.

Well, we got an Oracle GN and a Cass as Batgirl GN, so...

It isn't like Nightwing since the New 52 has been appearing in a ton of things. So it isn't something limited to just Batgirl. I mean Batgirl not appearing in more things isn't because Babs is now Batgirl. It has more to do with DC since the New 52 disconnecting their universe and segmenting it more. Although I'd take a consistent solo over being limited to smaller supporting roles in other books or random guest appearances.

My standpoint was Oracle was more integral to the Batfamily than Batgirl was or has been. I feel like it let Babs excel and feel important in a way that she didn't as Batgirl beyond being another crime-fighter in Gotham.

Maybe if her solo stories did a better job of emphasizing her importance or what she brings to the table in the identity, but I feel like we've only gotten that in very brief spurts.

Also why cant Frankie be Oracle? She is a great character to take over the Oracle role and I dont understand why DC havent done it yet?

I don't think Frankie is relevant or major enough to replace Babs as Oracle, something that is so synonymous with Barbara Gordon, which is probably why the Burnside writers never made her Oracle.

[Godlike13]

Cass and Steph's runs holds up to Cass and Steph fans the same way Dixon's run holds up to Nightwing fans. Made even more overblown by the sample size and that there is just generally less with them, as Badou was saying. But that doesn't mean they hold up generally anymore then Babs' various runs.

[ChangingStation]

Cass and Steph's runs holds up to Cass and Steph fans the same way Dixon's run holds up to Nightwing fans. Made even more overblown by the sample size and that there is just generally less with them, as Badou was saying. But that doesn't mean they hold up generally anymore then Babs' various runs.

Hmmm. Or maybe, the fact that Cass had 72 issues with various writers having their own runs, while Steph had her own Batgirl run of 24 issues, plus the Dixon and Lee years of the Robin title making her a mainstay (which was over 100 issues) means that they have a large enough sample size that no, their own runs aren't being overblown that way. People genuinely enjoy their stories without the major complaints that Barbara's recent runs have been facing (post Rebirth) while comparing them to bad runs the characters recieved.

And that's not to say they're perfect, but those runs also shouldn't be called overrated because of the editorial mistreatment the characters received making them look better.

Barbara after all, is unfortunately defined by Killing Joke, but that doesn't mean her stories before it are automatically good. They have to earn that quality.

[Godlike13]

Hmmm. Or maybe, the fact that Cass had 72 issues with various writers having their own runs, while Steph had her own Batgirl run of 24 issues, plus the Dixon and Lee years of the Robin title making her a mainstay (which was over 100 issues) means that they have a large enough sample size that no, their own runs aren't being overblown that way. People genuinely enjoy their stories without the major complaints that Barbara's recent runs have been facing (post Rebirth) while comparing them to bad runs the characters recieved.

And that's not to say they're perfect, but those runs also shouldn't be called overrated because of the editorial mistreatment the characters received making them look better.

Barbara after all, is unfortunately defined by Killing Joke, but that doesn't mean her stories before it are automatically good. They have to earn that quality.

I see no evidence that those runs have transcended fan favorite status, nor do you even see story arc's singled out as stories that stand out beyond their overall run. They are often overrated by their fans (not saying they were bad). They also weren’t immune to there fair share of complaints. Steph’s run especially I remember not having it that easy when it was actually going on. They are also pretty much all they have when it comes to content as Batgirl, and tend to get looked on with rose colored glasses in retrospect by their fans.
Nevertheless these are not stories that broke out in a general sense anymore then Babs current run has. From a general perspective Batgirl Year One is still at the top of Batgirl stories, and after that Burnside probably came closest to knocking at the door of a real general audience response. Going back to Dixon, one of my favorite runs with Nightwing. There is a difference in Nightwing fans pointing to Dixon's run as a great run that still holds up, and general audiences pointing to it as a great run that holds up.