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  1. #196
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Most the Batgirls are similar enough that a number of storyline ideas could conceivably be interchanged between one to another. The same is true for the Robins. Burnside was important because it was being done with the iconic Batgirl. It was the same with Grayson at the time.
    I find that an disingenous argument to make.

    Of course you can take a plot seed and move it around between characters. But that ignores that each character—if they are well-written and well-developed—will react to and interact with the story in very different ways. And not every story fits into each and every phase of a character's life in the same way.

    If we take Burnside as an example, it'd have worked for Steph, and possibly even Cass, because the setting wanted a character with limited "real-world" experience but still some "cape" experience. It could have worked for Babs, but that would have required setting it before TKJ, and possibly also reworking her entire background.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #197
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    In a 2009 DC Nation page, it was stated that before they chose Steph to be the new Batgirl, they were considering bringing Barbara back to the mantle. In Batman Inc in 2011, Barbara was able to act as a virtual Batgirl. Steph's book was also pretty much setting up Wendy Harris as a potential new Oracle (she took the codename Proxy). And Batgirl #24, Steph's final issue, had her drugged and seeing her future. Which included a scene in which all three Batgirls (Babs walking and Cassandra also back in her original costume) time travel to the 1940s and work with the Blackhawks - a future arc that never got to happen due to the reboot, I'm guessing. Seems that Babs would've always become Batgirl again sooner or later. It just wouldn't have been at Steph's expense.
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  3. #198
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I find that an disingenous argument to make.

    Of course you can take a plot seed and move it around between characters. But that ignores that each character—if they are well-written and well-developed—will react to and interact with the story in very different ways. And not every story fits into each and every phase of a character's life in the same way.

    If we take Burnside as an example, it'd have worked for Steph, and possibly even Cass, because the setting wanted a character with limited "real-world" experience but still some "cape" experience. It could have worked for Babs, but that would have required setting it before TKJ, and possibly also reworking her entire background.
    What is disingenuous is the idea that it didn’t work for Babs when it was only done with Babs. The Batgirls share a inherent familiarity, most superheroes in general share a familiarity. Wanting one to get a particular Batgirl storyline isn’t much different then wanting one to have the role in general. Could Burnside have been told with Steph or even Cass, conceivably, would it have has the same impact or success though. Harder to say.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-18-2020 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #199
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I don't see Cass working in a Burnside setting unless she took a huge genre shift to comedy.

  5. #200
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    Cass’ out of costume life is one of the most underdeveloped things about the character. Would things be the exact same, no, but the same basic premise could be adapted. Cass looking for change, moves to a new part of town to explore life outside of Batgirl. Would actually be a good opportunity to take her out of her usual element and develop more of her out of costume identity. I’d argue even the dichotomy of Cass in that setting would create for a lot of new and interesting situations.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-18-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  6. #201
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Cass’ out of costume life is one of the most underdeveloped things about the character. Would things be the exact same, no, but the same basic premise could be adapted. Cass looking for change, moves to a new part of town. Would actually be a good opportunity to take her out of her usual element and develop more of her out of costume identity.
    Her lack of a life outside of the costume was kind of a character point. Even if she did move to a Burnside like setting it would have probably had to have been handled very differently.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    What is disingenuous is the idea that it didn’t work for Babs when it was only done with Babs. The Batgirls share a inherent familiarity, most superheroes in general share a familiarity. Wanting one to get a particular Batgirl storyline isn’t much different then wanting one to have the role in general. Could Burnside have been told with Steph or even Cass, conceivably, would it have has the same impact or success though. Harder to say.
    Not really.

    Given that Cass not Barbara was the first Batgirl to get a solo title, and had I believe one of the longest runs of any female hero not named Wonder Woman or Supergirl or ethnic hero, never mind both (a couple of Milestone titles last longer, but that's about it on the second point), IMO an mpartial view of the character's history supports the idea that Cass would be more or similarly successful than Barbara.

  8. #203
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrock Holmes View Post
    Not really.

    Given that Cass not Barbara was the first Batgirl to get a solo title, and had I believe one of the longest runs of any female hero not named Wonder Woman or Supergirl or ethnic hero, never mind both (a couple of Milestone titles last longer, but that's about it on the second point), IMO an mpartial view of the character's history supports the idea that Cass would be more or similarly successful than Barbara.
    It's an amazing feat when you look at it that way, I wonder why it lasted so long. Was it a combo of luck and quality?
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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrock Holmes View Post
    Not really.

    Given that Cass not Barbara was the first Batgirl to get a solo title, and had I believe one of the longest runs of any female hero not named Wonder Woman or Supergirl or ethnic hero, never mind both (a couple of Milestone titles last longer, but that's about it on the second point), IMO an mpartial view of the character's history supports the idea that Cass would be more or similarly successful than Barbara.
    And Tim was the first Robin to get a solo, this is a testament to the times more then the characters. Neither could likely replicate those feats currently. And that’s not even taking everything outside of floppies into consideration.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-19-2020 at 12:49 PM.

  10. #205
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Why didn't Dick get a solo in the 80s anyway? Wasn't New Teen Titans a big seller? Solo spin-offs would've made sense. All he got was a feature in Action Comics Weekly. Barbara was pretty much in the same boat, limited to Detective Comics.
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  11. #206
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    And Tim was the first Robin to get a solo, this is a testament to the times more then the characters. Neither could likely replicate those feats currently. And that’s not even taking everything outside of floppies into consideration.
    I think it should be seen as a testament to both the times and the characters because I doubt the books would have done as well as they did if people weren't enjoying the stories with Tim and Cass.

  12. #207
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I find that an disingenous argument to make.

    Of course you can take a plot seed and move it around between characters. But that ignores that each character—if they are well-written and well-developed—will react to and interact with the story in very different ways. And not every story fits into each and every phase of a character's life in the same way.

    If we take Burnside as an example, it'd have worked for Steph, and possibly even Cass, because the setting wanted a character with limited "real-world" experience but still some "cape" experience. It could have worked for Babs, but that would have required setting it before TKJ, and possibly also reworking her entire background.
    Just because you're not into Barbara Gordon, doesn't mean it didn't work. That run was pretty successful, and a lot of fun. It 100% worked'. A lot of people really dug it and it was high quality.

  13. #208
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    Burnside Babs felt more like Barbara suffering from a midlife crisis of sorts and trying to be hip with the youth of today.
    She's, like, 22. She IS "the youth of today". That's why she's called BatGIRL, and not Batwoman.

  14. #209
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    She was 21 at the time, yes, but has since been retconned. Around the time she started wearing her current costume, she was aged up to late 20s (as was Dick, who said he lost nearly two decades of memories).

    Truthfully, there probably isn't much age gap between Babs and Kate any more.
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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Why didn't Dick get a solo in the 80s anyway? Wasn't New Teen Titans a big seller? Solo spin-offs would've made sense. All he got was a feature in Action Comics Weekly. Barbara was pretty much in the same boat, limited to Detective Comics.
    I guess they don't trust enough on the characters to give them a solo in the 80s.

    Solo comics weren't so common at that time, right?


    PS: New Teen Titans was pretty successful, but I have understood it was not the case with the previous Teen Titans comics.

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