Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

I don't know. I don't think Oracle should be package with Batgirls. At least not initially. They do this Nightwing and pair up all the ex-Robins together, and they have turned those roles basically into just adult Robins. If Oracle is above the role of Batgirl, then Oracle should be above the role. I wouldn’t want to see the role of Oracle be reduced to the teacher of new Batgirls or the adult Batgirl.

I would agree that Oracle shouldn't JUST be a teacher. She should be a planner, coordinator, monitor of the world.

[Frontier]

I mean, if we're talking about bringing back Oracle, then she should be leading the BoP while at the same time mentoring the new Batgirls.

[Godlike13]

BoP is Harley’s team now. Oracle will need a new venue now.

[Restingvoice]

Oracle's not coming back until the old farts who view Barbara Batgirl as their fantasy girlfriend similar to Jean Girl are out of the way.

The Oracle graphic novel is just fanservice and they've been making present-day canon Oracle a villain twice now, while in the other script comparing Oracle to Robin instead.

I forgot which one, but there's a panel of Babs saying she should be able to move on from Oracle just like Dick moved on from Robin to Nightwing, which I remember because I was so angry reading that.

[kjn]

Oracle's not coming back until the old farts who view Barbara Batgirl as their fantasy girlfriend similar to Jean Girl are out of the way.

Sad, but likely true.

The Oracle graphic novel is just fanservice and they've been making present-day canon Oracle a villain twice now, while in the other script comparing Oracle to Robin instead.

I'm not sure the The Oracle Code is "just fanservice". The Ink line seems to run on a philosophy that is very different from the rest of DC.

I forgot which one, but there's a panel of Babs saying she should be able to move on from Oracle just like Dick moved on from Robin to Nightwing, which I remember because I was so angry reading that.

WTF? Who tell hell comes up with that line of strained logic?

[Digifiend]

BoP is Harley’s team now. Oracle will need a new venue now.

She could work with the Justice League, Titans, or Young Justice. Before BOP, Oracle did work with both the Suicide Squad and the JLA.

[kjn]

BoP is Harley’s team now. Oracle will need a new venue now.

Is it?

Sure. The movie will push the Birds of Prey towards being associated with Harley Quinn, but compared to the rich history that Babs has with the team, both as Oracle and as Batgirl? And it's not like DC will ever let Harley Quinn be an organic member of the team.

[Jackalope89]

Is it?

Sure. The movie will push the Birds of Prey towards being associated with Harley Quinn, but compared to the rich history that Babs has with the team, both as Oracle and as Batgirl? And it's not like DC will ever let Harley Quinn be an organic member of the team.

DC is already making her into a part of the Justice League, for some inexplicable reason.

[Badou]

Other than fans wanting Steph or Cass to be Batgirl because that is "their Batgirl" I don't really understand all the desire to see Barbara removed from the role and go back to being Oracle. I thought Oracle was fine but ran its course and I have no desire to see Barbara go back to that role and give up Batgirl again. There was a lot of dry years with Oracle before the reboot. It is a downgrade for her character. As Batgirl she has had more exposure and stories about her than she has ever had before. Why would any fan of hers want to see her give that up to go back to being a lesser character? Batgirl is the more iconic identity and is a far bigger brand.

[Shamrock Holmes]

There was a lot of dry years with Oracle before the reboot. It is a downgrade for her character. As Batgirl she has had more exposure and stories about her than she has ever had before. Why would any fan of hers want to see her give that up to go back to being a lesser character? Batgirl is the more iconic identity and is a far bigger brand.

The only part of that that is even remotely correct is Batgirl being the bigger brand. Which is true as far as it goes.

However, as Oracle Barbara was still part of the Batgirl brand and I can't put into words how offensive I find it that Batman is allowed to have a broad cast of characters that he mentors but that somehow Barbara isn't.

Besides, I'd argue that in-universe Barbara had far more exposure as the A-list "Data Central" -- with a protagonist/deuteragonist role in Birds of Prey, both Cass and Steph's Batgirl, and supporting roles in Batman, Detective, Justice League and more -- whereas currently (apart from occassional guest spots) she's basically relegated to a single 2nd to 3rd tier title but that's supposed to be an "improvement" purely because she can join the nearly a dozen or so somewhat interchangeable "not Batman" members of the Bat Fam, rather than be "stuck" in a supporting role.

Sorry, YMMV, but I'm not buying it.

[Godlike13]

Is it?

Sure. The movie will push the Birds of Prey towards being associated with Harley Quinn, but compared to the rich history that Babs has with the team, both as Oracle and as Batgirl? And it's not like DC will ever let Harley Quinn be an organic member of the team.

I think it is. BoP is going to live and die on the Harley sword for good while now. Movie with a hot blonde in short shorts trumps history.

[Badou]

The only part of that that is even remotely correct is Batgirl being the bigger brand. Which is true as far as it goes.

However, as Oracle Barbara was still part of the Batgirl brand and I can't put into words how offensive I find it that Batman is allowed to have a broad cast of characters that he mentors but that somehow Barbara isn't.

Besides, I'd argue that in-universe Barbara had far more exposure as the A-list "Data Central" -- with a protagonist/deuteragonist role in Birds of Prey, both Cass and Steph's Batgirl, and supporting roles in Batman, Detective, Justice League and more -- whereas currently (apart from occassional guest spots) she's basically relegated to a single 2nd to 3rd tier title but that's supposed to be an "improvement" purely because she can join the nearly a dozen or so somewhat interchangeable "not Batman" members of the Bat Fam, rather than be "stuck" in a supporting role.

Sorry, YMMV, but I'm not buying it.

Everything I said was correct. Batgirl is the bigger brand, it is far more iconic, and Barbara has had more exposure and influence since returning to Batgirl than she has ever had in the history of her character. She has her own solo book, has more merchandise made for her, has more public awareness, is DC's biggest female hero/character only behind Wonder Woman and Harley, and has headlined multiple cartoon series as Batgirl. The idea that Barbara returning to Batgirl has been some failure is a completely false narrative. Sure, you can not like it but that doesn't change it from not being a major improvement for her character to be in the spotlight as a leading hero rather than a supporting character.

This idea that as Oracle before the New 52 Barbara was in some wonderful place where she was leading or a main central figure in the DCU is just incorrect. She was a supporting character that starred in other character's stories and sporadically showed up in bigger titles like JL, but that was far from the norm. The golden days of the BoP series was behind her at that time as well and her character was stuck in a pretty big rut with BoP not really knowing what to do with her, but readers didn't pay a ton of attention to her or her situation because they were more focused on the Batgirls, Steph and Cass, and their stories because they were in the iconic identity that Barbara revolved around.

[Shamrock Holmes]

I never said that Batgirl wasn't the bigger brand. That would like saying that Alfred Pennyworth is a bigger brand than Batman. He clearly isn't, but that doesn't mean he's not iconic. I think most people would agree that he is the defining and iconic "support character" in comics, not just DC comics.

Barbara Gordon has always been in the Top 3 to 5 iconic female heroes for DC (possibly even the "Big Two"). Traditionally the other two were Wonder Woman (the top) and Supergirl, but Power Girl -- due to a combination of originally being the "other Kara" and completed executive meddling in her back story -- never really took her place and Black Canary arguably became the (distant) number three, a state of affairs that largely persisted to the New 52, save perhaps for brief periods of Kara Zor-El/In-Ze's revival in the 2000s and a slight increase in Vixen's popularity over the same period.

The peak of Barbara's status as Oracle was under Grant Morrison on JLA, which quite explictedly touted her as the (behind the scenes) second most important female in the DCU and the one of the leaders of the superhero community. In fact if you consider that in the RW, the highest ranking leaders are the ones back at the base that co-ordinate the "big picture", then she's arguably more important during that period where JLA membership is explicitly described as "being on Mount Olympus among the pantheon", and when she is again explicitly shown as the premier co-ordinator of heroes worldwide.

Frankly, I wouldn't have minded her "return to the field" if -- like her journey to Oracle -- it had been something that was shown on-camera and she'd taken something like the co-leader role that Kate had during early Rebirth (or that she had during Future's End), which built on what came before to progress her back into her iconic role, rather than the regressive approach that demoted her to a generic Bat Fam hero that implicitly couldn't stand as a character on her own without throwing away much of the backstory and "competing" Batgirls (both of which had solo titles that were integrated into the DC 'verse far more than and at least as popular as the Barbara Gordon solo title)

[kjn]

Everything I said was correct. Batgirl is the bigger brand, it is far more iconic, and Barbara has had more exposure and influence since returning to Batgirl than she has ever had in the history of her character. She has her own solo book, has more merchandise made for her, has more public awareness, is DC's biggest female hero/character only behind Wonder Woman and Harley, and has headlined multiple cartoon series as Batgirl. The idea that Barbara returning to Batgirl has been some failure is a completely false narrative. Sure, you can not like it but that doesn't change it from not being a major improvement for her character to be in the spotlight as a leading hero rather than a supporting character.

I think you're mistaking quantity for quality here, or perhaps better put, exposure for meaning. Sure, you can find lots of Babsgirl merchandise and secondary material, but that's also because we see an overall rise of that stuff. Don't also forget that the first Batgirl solo books were with Cass and Steph.

But when it comes to story quality? What iconic or groundbreaking stories have been told about Babsgirl since her return? Has anyone managed to say anything new about her? Or will TKJ references and callbacks be all we get?

Heroes in Crisis (2018-) 004-011.jpg

This idea that as Oracle before the New 52 Barbara was in some wonderful place where she was leading or a main central figure in the DCU is just incorrect. She was a supporting character that starred in other character's stories and sporadically showed up in bigger titles like JL, but that was far from the norm. The golden days of the BoP series was behind her at that time as well and her character was stuck in a pretty big rut with BoP not really knowing what to do with her, but readers didn't pay a ton of attention to her or her situation because they were more focused on the Batgirls, Steph and Cass, and their stories because they were in the iconic identity that Barbara revolved around.

You're quite correct that the Birds of Prey was in a rut from Gail Simone's second half of her first run. At the same time, Birds of Prey under Chuck Dixon and the beginning of Simone's first run had been ground-breaking in comics. But the same happens with nearly every title or character. It's not like Babsgirl hasn't had ruts as well.

When I look at the modern Batgirl stories people bring up, the one I see mentioned most often is Batgirl Annual #2 by Simone (granted, that might be because of the discussions that I read). But that isn't brought up because of Babs. It's because of what it managed to say about Poison Ivy.

[Godlike13]

Burnside was bigger then it gets credit for around here.