Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

DCYou was an attempt to try build off runs like Burnside and Grayson. DCYou flopped, but that doesn't mean those runs that inspired it were bad.

As I literally said, I personally liked a lot of what they were doing. But that liking was not widespread in terms of sales, so making an argument that DC should keep doing that is not very persuasive.

[Godlike13]

I’ll be more clear. Just because DCYou flopped doesn’t mean runs like Grayson or Burnside weren’t successful in terms of response and sales. They liked what was happening with them they decided hey let’s tried to do that with more books. That didn’t work out, but that doesn’t take away from the Burnside run itself.
They said something new with the character, got people talking, and increased readership for the title. So much so DC wanted to try and copy it. Can any other Batgirl run say that, or an Oracle story even?

[Frontier]

They said something new with the character, got people talking, and increased readership for the title. So much so DC wanted to try and copy it. Can any other Batgirl run say that, or an Oracle story even?

Cass was the first Batgirl to actually carry a solo series and became one of DC's most prominent minority heroes. She made her mark on legacy heroes and the Batgirl mantle.

I'd say Steph's Batgirl was imactful enough to where it somewhat influenced the Burnside revamp.

I mean, people talk about how the Ostrander's saved Barbara's character after KJ by creating Oracle and I think that helped BoP during it's initial run.

[Godlike13]

Cass was the first Batgirl to get a solo series, which was a result of the trend of the times, and not sure Steph’s Batgirl actually did influences the Burnside run. Is there anything to substantiate that?

I’m not questioning the merits of those characters. Just how many of any Batgirl or Oracle have “groundbreaking” stories or runs. Burnside is probably as close as any has gotten since arguably Batgirl Year One.

[Frontier]

Batgirl's proposed Gotham City Resistance design.

Cass was the first Batgirl to get a solo series, which was a result of the trend of the times, and not sure Steph’s Batgirl actually did influences the Burnside run. Is there anything to substantiate that?

I just think when you look at how they approached Babs a character in that run you can see some influences from Steph's tenure as Batgirl.

I’m not questioning the merits of those characters. Just how many of any Batgirl or Oracle have “groundbreaking” stories or runs. Burnside is probably as close as any has gotten since arguably Batgirl Year One.

I don't think anyone really views Burnside as "groundbreaking." At best it was a fresh and new direction that gave the character new energy, but not something I think people would call "groundbreaking" like the work on Cass' solo or Year One.

[Godlike13]

Burnside side wasn’t groundbreaking, truly groundbreaking stories are rather rare, but in terms of general reception and reaction it created the most noise and inspired more talk and reaction then any Batgirl story has for a long time.

[Badou]

I don't think Burnside was inspired by Steph's Batgirl run. I mean if you want to say it was then you could easily say that Steph's run was inspired by Batgirl Year One or Batgirl from BTAS in terms of how they wanted to portray Batgirl. I thought Steph's run was fine, but it wasn't unique or anything. It was fun because it brought back the Batigrl Year One vibe with Batgirl being young and more inexperienced again. Her trying to prove herself like how Babs did originally.

I just think people on this board are overly critical of Babs as Batgirl. For a long time there has been an obvious negative bias towards her taking back the Batgirl identity here with Cass and Steph fans feeling upset. Pushing this idea that her as Batgirl is stale and spinning its wheels and that should be used as ammo to justify demoting her back to Oracle so someone else can be Batgirl, or even devaluing the identity by having them all just be Batgirl, but I feel that is a very bad argument to make. It ignores that the vast majority of ongoing characters and books are stale and feel completely stuck in the mud. This isn't something just unique to Babs if you feel that way about her. Dick's character has been a directionless mess most of the time since the New 52, Jason's stories have gotten very stale, no one outside of Tomasi has even tried to have Damian grow and progress and they keep writing him like he was over a decade ago now, and Tim probably has it worst of all. No one knows what to do with him and he is stuck leading another stale and boring young hero team. Then you have so many team books that fall into the same category.

I guess my point is that I don't think Barbara as Batgirl is the problem and I actually enjoy her in that role, but the issue is more that DC as a whole has a very difficult time producing any memorable stories for nearly all their characters now with how things are structured at the company these days.

[Frontier]

Burnside side wasn’t groundbreaking, truly groundbreaking stories are rather rare, but in terms of general reception and reaction it created the most noise and inspired more talk and reaction then any Batgirl story has for a long time.

It definitely brought attention back to the title, but that attention didn't seem to stick for long, especially once the creative team left. It's style was memorable, it helped launch Babs Tarr as an artist, but it didn't have enough substance to keep people coming back. And that felt especially true when Larson continued off from it.

I don't think Burnside was inspired by Steph's Batgirl run. I mean if you want to say it was then you could easily say that Steph's run was inspired by Batgirl Year One or Batgirl from BTAS in terms of how they wanted to portray Batgirl. I thought Steph's run was fine, but it wasn't unique or anything. It was fun because it brought back the Batigrl Year One vibe with Batgirl being young and more inexperienced again. Her trying to prove herself like how Babs did originally.

I think Steph's run was more rooted in her as a character then just trying to ape other Batgirls. Miller wrote her very differently from Babs in BTAS or Year One.

Maybe they weren't deliberately trying to echo Steph's run but a college-age millenial Batgirl in a purple costume with a more youthful, quippy, personality is very much in the vein of Steph's Batgirl.

I just think people on this board are overly critical of Babs as Batgirl. For a long time there has been an obvious negative bias towards her taking back the Batgirl identity here with Cass and Steph fans feeling upset. Pushing this idea that her as Batgirl is stale and spinning its wheels and that should be used as ammo to justify demoting her back to Oracle so someone else can be Batgirl, or even devaluing the identity by having them all just be Batgirl, but I feel that is a very bad argument to make. It ignores that the vast majority of ongoing characters and books are stale and feel completely stuck in the mud. This isn't something just unique to Babs if you feel that way about her. Dick's character has been a directionless mess most of the time since the New 52, Jason's stories have gotten very stale, no one outside of Tomasi has even tried to have Damian grow and progress and they keep writing him like he was over a decade ago now, and Tim probably has it worst of all. No one knows what to do with him and he is stuck leading another stale and boring young hero team. Then you have so many team books that fall into the same category.

I guess my point is that I don't think Barbara as Batgirl is the problem and I actually enjoy her in that role, but the issue is more that DC as a whole has a very difficult time producing any memorable stories for nearly all their characters now with how things are structured at the company these days.

I don't have a problem with Babs as Batgirl but I do think the lack of consistent story quality and handling of her character since coming back hasn't really justified putting her back in the mantle again.

Yeah, Cass and Steph fans have genuine reason to be upset but Babs hasn't really had the kind of strong run that Cass and Steph had. There wasn't universal love for Simone's run or Burnside, Larson was kind of just there, and while Scott seemed to be taking the title back to a strong direction, she left.

We can argue that DC hasn't done a great job with a lot of their characters, and that it's more of an issue with the creatives then the characters, but I think the point still stands, especially if we compare how Babs is depicted now versus how she used to be.

[Badou]

Maybe they weren't deliberately trying to echo Steph's run but a college-age millenial Batgirl in a purple costume with a more youthful, quippy, personality is very much in the vein of Steph's Batgirl.

But those were aspects Barbara has before. Maybe she wasn't as quippy, but the purple costume, college age personality, and a more youthful tone are all things Babs has done, usually in her most well known incarnations. Even Steph's friendship with Supergirl was taken from Babs from BTAS.

I don't have a problem with Babs as Batgirl but I do think the lack of consistent story quality and handling of her character since coming back hasn't really justified putting her back in the mantle again.

Yeah, Cass and Steph fans have genuine reason to be upset but Babs hasn't really had the kind of strong run that Cass and Steph had.

I guess this is where we just have to agree to disagree. I don't think Cass or Steph's runs were that remarkably better than Babs' now. Simone's run had peaks of being the highest selling female solo title across all comic books for a time even if people here didn't like it, and I think the Burnside run is quite memorable. Steph's run had a fun tone from what I remember of it, but I don't think any of her actual stories were that memorable. I never see anyone talk about her actual stories in that run beyond just saying the run was fun. Maybe because it was so short, but I don't know. Cass' stories obviously get talked about a lot more, as it was a much longer run than Steph's and more defining, but this is where personal bias comes in where I'm mostly indifferent towards Cass' character. So I never felt slighted when she was removed from the identity for Steph.

[Frontier]

But those were aspects Barbara has before. Maybe she wasn't as quippy, but the purple costume, college age personality, and a more youthful tone are all things Babs has done, usually in her most well known incarnations. Even Steph's friendship with Supergirl was taken from Babs from BTAS.

Purple costume was from the '60's show, she's never worn it in the comics.

Steph having a friendship with Supergirl was there because Batgirl being friends with Supergirl is a thing moreso then because it was in BTAS. Linda Danvers teamed-up with Cass once.

I guess this is where we just have to agree to disagree. I don't think Cass or Steph's runs were that remarkably better than Babs' now. Simone's run had peaks of being the highest selling female solo title across all comic books for a time even if people here didn't like it, and I think the Burnside run is quite memorable. Steph's run had a fun tone from what I remember of it, but I don't think any of her actual stories were that memorable. I never see anyone talk about her actual stories in that run beyond just saying the run was fun. Maybe because it was so short, but I don't know. Cass' stories obviously get talked about a lot more, as it was a much longer run than Steph's and more defining, but this is where personal bias comes in where I'm mostly indifferent towards Cass' character. So I never felt slighted when she was removed from the identity for Steph.

I don't think either Simone's work or Burnside hold up as well as Puckett's work on Cass or Miller's on Steph's run. We can agree to disagree on that, but I still maintain Burnside gave us a more shallow Batgirl then we deserve.

[Digifiend]

Babs and Kara were friends pre-Crisis as well. They had a chat during the Crisis, in which Barbara mentioned that she was wondering whether she should continue. Bear in mind, Killing Joke wasn't very long after the Crisis...

[Flash Gordon]

Batgirl of Burnside and the DCYou stuff was perfect. That, with a heavy dose of Batgirl '66, would be the move for a movie.

The current BATGIRL by Castellucci is so so so so good.

[Frontier]

Batgirl of Burnside and the DCYou stuff was perfect. That, with a heavy dose of Batgirl '66, would be the move for a movie.

If anything should be the basis of a Batgirl film, it's Year One.

The Burnside look can be a prototype costume but it shouldn't stick for the final look.

[9th.]

At this point, they should just launch a Batgirls book with Babs as the lead alogside Steph and Cass.
They could all keep their unique identities (Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat) while going by Batgirls as a team.

I love this idea, Birds of Prey might be a bust now that Harley got a hold of it.

[Konja7]

I don't think Burnside was inspired by Steph's Batgirl run. I mean if you want to say it was then you could easily say that Steph's run was inspired by Batgirl Year One or Batgirl from BTAS in terms of how they wanted to portray Batgirl. I thought Steph's run was fine, but it wasn't unique or anything. It was fun because it brought back the Batigrl Year One vibe with Batgirl being young and more inexperienced again. Her trying to prove herself like how Babs did originally.

I just think people on this board are overly critical of Babs as Batgirl. For a long time there has been an obvious negative bias towards her taking back the Batgirl identity here with Cass and Steph fans feeling upset. Pushing this idea that her as Batgirl is stale and spinning its wheels and that should be used as ammo to justify demoting her back to Oracle so someone else can be Batgirl, or even devaluing the identity by having them all just be Batgirl, but I feel that is a very bad argument to make. It ignores that the vast majority of ongoing characters and books are stale and feel completely stuck in the mud. This isn't something just unique to Babs if you feel that way about her. Dick's character has been a directionless mess most of the time since the New 52, Jason's stories have gotten very stale, no one outside of Tomasi has even tried to have Damian grow and progress and they keep writing him like he was over a decade ago now, and Tim probably has it worst of all. No one knows what to do with him and he is stuck leading another stale and boring young hero team. Then you have so many team books that fall into the same category.

I guess my point is that I don't think Barbara as Batgirl is the problem and I actually enjoy her in that role, but the issue is more that DC as a whole has a very difficult time producing any memorable stories for nearly all their characters now with how things are structured at the company these days.

In my case, I like the personality and experience of Barbara like Oracle. However, I do not want her to return to this role (she could be relegated in this).

I must say it, although I like Stephanie as Batgirl, I was very hopeful about Batgirl return like Batgirl in New52. I love Barbara as Oracle, so I thought they would maintain her experience and focus this on her role as Batgirl.

However, it seems that Barbara being Batgirl again means that she has to be inexperienced and youthful (this happened even during Simone run, although Burnside took it to another level). So, I don't like Batgirl identity for Barbara anymore.