Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[Drako]

If she indeed is back being Oracle, I'm guessing whatever comes from The Three Jokers doesn't really matter then.

[Godlike13]

The Three Jokers is loose cannon. They want it to stand on its own so that its easily accessible, but with out directly contradicting cannon either.

[Badou]

From an IP and branding perspective Oracle isn’t on the same level. We all know this. This isn’t really arguable, and it’s why people want Cass and/or Steph in the role. Cause Spoiler and Orphan can’t compare either and don’t come along with nearly the same kinds of opportunities or content.

From a character perspective whether or not becoming Oracle again would be good thing would depends on where Oracle goes and what they do with her. If they were to just put her in a Batgirls book positionally that’s not an improvement, nor would be having her jump around as a guest in other books.

Exactly. Every Tim Drake fan would love for Tim to become Robin again. There are only a few iconic identities in comics and giving one up can have really damaging effects for years or decades.

I mean they aren't going to make an Oracle book over a Batgirl book, right? I'd be surprised if they only launch an Oracle book and no Batgirl book. So if Babs goes back to being Oracle then she has effectively given up her identity and book to someone else to go to a lesser identity if there is a new Batgirl book. I don't really know how to look at that other than her stepping down into a lesser role.

Eh. I consider Oracle to be just as important to the character, and a step up in terms of the positive effects she can bring. We have plenty of people out in the field who can fight crime. The Bat family needs someone to organise their efforts, and provide the best Intel to let them do the most good. With Alfred dead, I can see Barbara choosing to take his place when dealing with this crisis.

Oracle will never be as iconic or important as Batgirl even if you think Oracle is as important, but on a functional level Oracle really can't compete. Even in your description you basically described a supporting character instead of a character that could act as a lead in their own book like Batgirl. Would any fan of a character that is actually out fighting crime want their character to step back to just act as support like an Alfred? I can't imagine any fan of a character like Bruce, Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian, Steph, Cass, Kate, Duke, or anyone wanting that over them having a costume and fighting themselves.

I don't blame Cass or Steph fans wanting Babs to step down so one of them could take over the role, it would be a major step up for either of them, but as someone that prefers Babs in the role I don't really have a desire to see her go to a lesser identity.

[Frontier]

I think she has had very good runs in the 9 years since she has been back in the role. Not all were good, but I think some were as good or better than anything Cass or Steph did in the role. I just don't see how going back to a lesser identity will be good for the character.

I mean, if you think any of the past Babs runs in the past few years are on par with or are as good as Cass or Steph's run, fair enough, but I'm going to have to hard disagree on that.

At best they were decent or solid but not altogether character defining (and Cass and Steph did better some of the elements those runs tried to make work).

From an IP and branding perspective Oracle isn’t on the same level. We all know this. This isn’t really arguable, and it’s why people want Cass and/or Steph in the role. Cause Spoiler and Orphan can’t compare either and don’t come along with nearly the same kinds of opportunities or content.

I'd never argue Batgirl isn't the bigger brand but I feel like they have to do more than just keeping Babs as Batgirl just for branding reasons. I think that's damaged her character to some extent.

Exactly. Every Tim Drake fan would love for Tim to become Robin again. There are only a few iconic identities in comics and giving one up can have really damaging effects for years or decades.

I'm a Tim fan who'd prefer he be Red Robin again personally.

I mean they aren't going to make an Oracle book over a Batgirl book, right? I'd be surprised if they only launch an Oracle book and no Batgirl book. So if Babs goes back to being Oracle then she has effectively given up her identity and book to someone else to go to a lesser identity if there is a new Batgirl book. I don't really know how to look at that other than her stepping down into a lesser role.

If Babs was Oracle again I'd expect her to appear more than she did as Batgirl.

Oracle will never be as iconic or important as Batgirl even if you think Oracle is as important, but on a functional level Oracle really can't compete. Even in your description you basically described a supporting character instead of a character that could act as a lead in their own book like Batgirl. Would any fan of a character that is actually out fighting crime want their character to step back to just act as support like an Alfred? I can't imagine any fan of a character like Bruce, Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian, Steph, Cass, Kate, Duke, or anyone wanting that over them having a costume and fighting themselves.

I don't blame Cass or Steph fans wanting Babs to step down so one of them could take over the role, it would be a major step up for either of them, but as someone that prefers Babs in the role I don't really have a desire to see her go to a lesser identity.

I'm fine with Babs as Batgirl I just want DC to treat Cass and Steph better and do a better job of justifying Babs in the costume again.

[ChangingStation]

Exactly. Every Tim Drake fan would love for Tim to become Robin again. There are only a few iconic identities in comics and giving one up can have really damaging effects for years or decades.

I mean they aren't going to make an Oracle book over a Batgirl book, right? I'd be surprised if they only launch an Oracle book and no Batgirl book. So if Babs goes back to being Oracle then she has effectively given up her identity and book to someone else to go to a lesser identity if there is a new Batgirl book. I don't really know how to look at that other than her stepping down into a lesser role.



Oracle will never be as iconic or important as Batgirl even if you think Oracle is as important, but on a functional level Oracle really can't compete. Even in your description you basically described a supporting character instead of a character that could act as a lead in their own book like Batgirl. Would any fan of a character that is actually out fighting crime want their character to step back to just act as support like an Alfred? I can't imagine any fan of a character like Bruce, Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian, Steph, Cass, Kate, Duke, or anyone wanting that over them having a costume and fighting themselves.

I don't blame Cass or Steph fans wanting Babs to step down so one of them could take over the role, it would be a major step up for either of them, but as someone that prefers Babs in the role I don't really have a desire to see her go to a lesser identity.

We're looking at this from different perspectives.

Out of Universe, Oracle happens to be a symbol of diversity for disabled fans, while Batgirl is the role Barbara keeps on getting identified as, just like Dick keeps on being thought of as Robin the kid sidekick. Make no mistake, yes Nightwing had a solo series, and Oracle didn't, instead being a mainstay of the entire Batfamily comics line and leader of the Birds of Prey. Whereas now, Barbara has a solo series in exchange for less appearances in the rest of the line because she no longer works as an information broker and is instead just another vigilante in-universe.

I'm not advocating for putting Babs back in a wheelchair. I just feel that Barbara no longer puts her talent with computers to the kind of use that proved incredibly helpful in the past. She can be both Batgirl and Oracle after all, instead of focusing on one aspect or the other, providing Intel to other heroes occasionally while at other times doing her own fieldwork when necessary.

[sorboares]

We're looking at this from different perspectives.

Out of Universe, Oracle happens to be a symbol of diversity for disabled fans, while Batgirl is the role Barbara keeps on getting identified as, just like Dick keeps on being thought of as Robin the kid sidekick. Make no mistake, yes Nightwing had a solo series, and Oracle didn't, instead being a mainstay of the entire Batfamily comics line and leader of the Birds of Prey. Whereas now, Barbara has a solo series in exchange for less appearances in the rest of the line because she no longer works as an information broker and is instead just another vigilante in-universe.

I'm not advocating for putting Babs back in a wheelchair. I just feel that Barbara no longer puts her talent with computers to the kind of use that proved incredibly helpful in the past. She can be both Batgirl and Oracle after all, instead of focusing on one aspect or the other, providing Intel to other heroes occasionally while at other times doing her own fieldwork when necessary.

I am a fan that wants Babs to stay as Batgirl but I like when you said she can be both Batgirl and Oracle and do some field work and provide intel to other heroes. I would be happy with that just as long as Babs is still Batgirl, but why cant she also be Oracle?
But sadly by the looks of it DC have decided to make Babs go backwards and become Oracle again.
It doesn't make sense that other characters can die and come back to life, Bruce had his back broken by Bane and gets healed but Babs took years to be healed and now they are going to take that away from her again.
Also isnt a Batgirl (Babs Gordon) movie in the works? Why would DC want to take her away from the comics when she is hopefully getting her own movie?

[Godlike13]

We also have to remember, things have changed. Technology has changed these last 10 years, and with the level techno magic Tynion has his character's display, sitting at a desktop is rather antiquated. Also Birds or Prey has also changed considerably now. If Babs goes back to being Oracle we can't just assume things will go back to how things were for her at Oracle's best, cause the landscape has changed.

Personally im torn. If im being honest ive been bored with Batgirl. There been some good issues but for the most part they are just kind of spinning their wheels with the property creatively. And its creators don't even get a seat at the table. At the same time though i don't see DC bringing back Oracle well. Much like they did with Cass and Steph, i can see them bringing Oracle back just to bring Oracle back, and then just fit her in whenever they can. But not really having a plan or purpose for Oracle being back or how she now functions in their current landscape. Like i said before im not big on the idea of Oracle playing den mother to Batgirl, BoP seems out, i don't see a solo happening. So ya, i don't know. At the same time though I can't say im particularly excited over the idea of relaunching her Batgirl solo and just doing more of that. Not that it was terrible, but it was just kind of was. It doesn't help that it seems its creators are just kind of wasting their effort.

[Frontier]

Going by the preview pages of Joker War with Babs in glasses it looks like she's organizing the Batfamily managing the chaos in Gotham.

[atomicbattery]

These are comic books.
In comic books, at least half of the appeal, since Action Comics #1 in 1938, is the depiction of dynamic human anatomy in colorful costumes.
If Barbara goes back to being the disembodied voice, or occasionally depicted in the background on a cover behind a character in action, that is not character growth in the world of the comic book. By the very nature of the form it is digression.

I tire of the contention that Barbara Gordon grew so much as a character as Oracle. I read every issue of Birds of Prey. The ‘growth’ that Barbara had, essentially, was that- because of her grotesque treatment in The Killing Joke- she was the one character in the BatUniverse who was allowed to yell at Batman.
Hooray.
That’s not even unique anymore- nowadays, everyone yells at Batman.

[Badou]

I mean, if you think any of the past Babs runs in the past few years are on par with or are as good as Cass or Steph's run, fair enough, but I'm going to have to hard disagree on that.

At best they were decent or solid but not altogether character defining (and Cass and Steph did better some of the elements those runs tried to make work).

I don't think they were that different in terms of quality. It's just that before Cass and Steph's runs they never had their own solo stories. Their fans had nothing to compare it to and it felt character defining. It can make them feel a lot better than they actually were, and with what happened to their characters after their runs it elevated those runs even more in their fans' eyes. Babs had Batgirl Year One first and that was her defining story and it completely blows any other Batgirl story out of the water in my opinion. That is what I count as a great or defining story and nothing from Cass, Steph, or even Babs since her return came close to that. So maybe that is why I don't see Babs' Batgirl stories since the New 52 as being that dissimilar to Steph or Cass' runs.

I'm a Tim fan who'd prefer he be Red Robin again personally.

The traditional ongoing superhero comics are probably in as weak of a state as they have ever been in. I think the future is going to more original stories built for GNs, which it feels like DC is producing much more of recently, but because of how comics are now it is even more damaging to lose one of those iconic identities like a Robin or Batgirl. It's increasingly more difficult to stay relevant. A Red Robin or an Oracle don't have the staying power they did a decade or more ago. I look at a character like Tim and it feels like things are getting more and more difficult for him the longer he is removed from the Robin IP even when he was still using the Red Robin name.

If Babs was Oracle again I'd expect her to appear more than she did as Batgirl.

It isn't like Nightwing since the New 52 has been appearing in a ton of things. So it isn't something limited to just Batgirl. I mean Batgirl not appearing in more things isn't because Babs is now Batgirl. It has more to do with DC since the New 52 disconnecting their universe and segmenting it more. Although I'd take a consistent solo over being limited to smaller supporting roles in other books or random guest appearances.

We're looking at this from different perspectives.

Out of Universe, Oracle happens to be a symbol of diversity for disabled fans, while Batgirl is the role Barbara keeps on getting identified as, just like Dick keeps on being thought of as Robin the kid sidekick. Make no mistake, yes Nightwing had a solo series, and Oracle didn't, instead being a mainstay of the entire Batfamily comics line and leader of the Birds of Prey. Whereas now, Barbara has a solo series in exchange for less appearances in the rest of the line because she no longer works as an information broker and is instead just another vigilante in-universe.

I'm not advocating for putting Babs back in a wheelchair. I just feel that Barbara no longer puts her talent with computers to the kind of use that proved incredibly helpful in the past. She can be both Batgirl and Oracle after all, instead of focusing on one aspect or the other, providing Intel to other heroes occasionally while at other times doing her own fieldwork when necessary.

I don't think the information broker thing works in 2020. Sure, in the 90s or early 00s it made more sense, but now every person walking around has their own personal computer in their pocket. The idea of a character sitting behind a computer screen and having to relay information to other heroes is a very dated idea. No current book really does that anymore because tech has allowed characters to get information themselves. So her going back to a role like that I don't know how much utility it has today.

Also I am someone that thought it was poor writing to keep Babs in a chair for a long as they did when characters were dying and being brought back to life all the time, but that is a whole different argument. I get they did it because they didn't want to upset disabled fans, but I didn't agree with their decision. I just felt that Oracle before the New 52 was in a major rut. It didn't seem anyone really knew what to do with her character and she had stopped progressing other than just being a supporting character for Batgirl or team manager for BoP. She really wasn't that involved in a ton of books or had this great influence on a ton of different books.

[mathew101281]

I don't think they were that different in terms of quality. It's just that before Cass and Steph's runs they never had their own solo stories. Their fans had nothing to compare it to and it felt character defining. It can make them feel a lot better than they actually were, and with what happened to their characters after their runs it elevated those runs even more in their fans' eyes. Babs had Batgirl Year One first and that was her defining story and it completely blows any other Batgirl story out of the water in my opinion. That is what I count as a great or defining story and nothing from Cass, Steph, or even Babs since her return came close to that. So maybe that is why I don't see Babs' Batgirl stories since the New 52 as being that dissimilar to Steph or Cass' runs.



The traditional ongoing superhero comics are probably in as weak of a state as they have ever been in. I think the future is going to more original stories built for GNs, which it feels like DC is producing much more of recently, but because of how comics are now it is even more damaging to lose one of those iconic identities like a Robin or Batgirl. It's increasingly more difficult to stay relevant. A Red Robin or an Oracle don't have the staying power they did a decade or more ago. I look at a character like Tim and it feels like things are getting more and more difficult for him the longer he is removed from the Robin IP even when he was still using the Red Robin name.



It isn't like Nightwing since the New 52 has been appearing in a ton of things. So it isn't something limited to just Batgirl. I mean Batgirl not appearing in more things isn't because Babs is now Batgirl. It has more to do with DC since the New 52 disconnecting their universe and segmenting it more. Although I'd take a consistent solo over being limited to smaller supporting roles in other books or random guest appearances.




I don't think the information broker thing works in 2020. Sure, in the 90s or early 00s it made more sense, but now every person walking around has their own personal computer in their pocket. The idea of a character sitting behind a computer screen and having to relay information to other heroes is a very dated idea. No current book really does that anymore because tech has allowed characters to get information themselves. So her going back to a role like that I don't know how much utility it has today.

Also I am someone that thought it was poor writing to keep Babs in a chair for a long as they did when characters were dying and being brought back to life all the time, but that is a whole different argument. I get they did it because they didn't want to upset disabled fans, but I didn't agree with their decision. I just felt that Oracle before the New 52 was in a major rut. It didn't seem anyone really knew what to do with her character and she had stopped progressing other than just being a supporting character for Batgirl or team manager for BoP. She really wasn't that involved in a ton of books or had this great influence on a ton of different books.

Not really. Computers and tech are more ubiqutious and omini present then even back in the 90's. Information brokers are some of the most powerful people on the planet right now. To me Babs and her hero identiities are an interesting contrast. Batgirl is more iconic, but I feel that their are a bunch of characters that could fill that role almost as well if not better. Oracle isn't as iconic as Batgirl, but I feel in a lot of ways she is a more interesting character. A superhero who's abilities are primarily non violent. A disabled superhero. She has connections all over the DCU, and not just in the Bat family.

[Badou]

Not really. Computers and tech are more ubiqutious and omini present then even back in the 90's. Information brokers are some of the most powerful people on the planet right now. To me Babs and her hero identiities are an interesting contrast. Batgirl is more iconic, but I feel that their are a bunch of characters that could fill that role almost as well if not better. Oracle isn't as iconic as Batgirl, but I feel in a lot of ways she is a more interesting character. A superhero who's abilities are primarily non violent. A disabled superhero. She has connections all over the DCU, and not just in the Bat family.

Is any major comic character doing that though who doesn't also operate as a costumed hero? The classic Oracle-type of character whose job is to provide information to other heroes doesn't really exist in comics anymore. That was my point. If it is such an important job why has no other character really filled it?

The last character I remember doing anything like this was Alfred's daughter when Jim was Batman, but she got sent into limbo pretty quickly after Jim went back to normal.

[Konja7]

Not really. Computers and tech are more ubiqutious and omini present then even back in the 90's. Information brokers are some of the most powerful people on the planet right now. To me Babs and her hero identiities are an interesting contrast. Batgirl is more iconic, but I feel that their are a bunch of characters that could fill that role almost as well if not better. Oracle isn't as iconic as Batgirl, but I feel in a lot of ways she is a more interesting character. A superhero who's abilities are primarily non violent. A disabled superhero. She has connections all over the DCU, and not just in the Bat family.

However, other characters could fill Oracle's role too. There is many really good hackers in the DC Universe (even in the Batfamily). It just that writers don't focus on that aspectm

I become fan of Barbara as Oracle and I really liked her in BOP. However, I think that role is pretty limited in cómics, since she cannot even have a solo (and could easily become only a supporting carácter in a team book).

Not that I'm happy with Barbara's current role as Batgirl. She alzó seems to be very stuck there (DC won't allow her to really grow in that role).

[nopenope23]

I'm kind of bummed if Barbara goes back to Oracle honestly.

I got into comics because of all the noise around the New 52 and Barbara becoming Batgirl again. I was in middle school when that happened, so she's kind of the Batgirl I grew up with (not just in comics, but in media too - B:TAS, Batman & Robin, etc).

Her entire run was really spotty, but I have a special fondness for the character anyway. I do agree that she's had more interesting stories as Oracle (from the old Birds of Prey issues I've read), but I'm concerned that this means she'll be relegated to a supporting character you only see every so often.

[Godlike13]

A lot of the information Oracle would "broker" could be done by an app now a days, the last BoP before the relaunch even kind of realized this, and Oracle's skill set has been so bastardize we have seen it with characters from Tim to Steph now. Oracle would need to be updated and modernized to make it fresh and unique beyond her disability, hell Oracle 10 years ago needed to be updated. Same as any character.