Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[Konja7]

Hmmm. Or maybe, the fact that Cass had 72 issues with various writers having their own runs, while Steph had her own Batgirl run of 24 issues, plus the Dixon and Lee years of the Robin title making her a mainstay (which was over 100 issues) means that they have a large enough sample size that no, their own runs aren't being overblown that way. People genuinely enjoy their stories without the major complaints that Barbara's recent runs have been facing (post Rebirth) while comparing them to bad runs the characters recieved.

And that's not to say they're perfect, but those runs also shouldn't be called overrated because of the editorial mistreatment the characters received making them look better.

Barbara after all, is unfortunately defined by Killing Joke, but that doesn't mean her stories before it are automatically good. They have to earn that quality.

This is simply a matter of opinion.

I don't think Stephanie or Cassandra as Batgirl run are overrated, since I enjoy both a lot more than Barbara as Batgirl run (I like Batgirl Year One, but I don't find something incredible either).

However, there are other people who will think that Barbara as Batgirl is better or has a similar level than the other Batgirl run, so it isn't weird they think Cassandra or Stephanie run are overrated.

[ChangingStation]

This is simply a matter of opinion.

I don't think Stephanie or Cassandra as Batgirl run are overrated, since I enjoy both a lot more than Barbara as Batgirl run (I like Batgirl Year One, but I don't find something incredible either).

However, there are other people who will think that Barbara as Batgirl is better or has a similar level than the other Batgirl run, so it isn'rpt weird they think Cassandra or Stephanie run are overrated.

You're right of course. Fans like what they like. And it's not helped by DC being only interested in advertising specific characters in specific roles, which causes a lot of polarisation when people disagree.

[millernumber1]

I don't think Frankie is relevant or major enough to replace Babs as Oracle, something that is so synonymous with Barbara Gordon, which is probably why the Burnside writers never made her Oracle.

I believe I read an interview in the last couple years that said it was editorial that prevented the Burnside team from making Frankie Oracle. I believe them, since as KJN beatifully says, DC editorial has tried to destroy Oracle a lot with their frustrating "evil robot Oracle" stories for 5 years now.

You're right of course. Fans like what they like. And it's not helped by DC being only interested in advertising specific characters in specific roles, which causes a lot of polarisation when people disagree.

Yep.

[Flash Gordon]

Barbara Gordon *is* Batgirl, outside of that she doesn't have much. The Killing Joke really needs to be left behind, hell even Alan Moore agrees. The treatment of Babs is misogynistic and Oracle didn't really improve that.

The role of "person at computer screen" can be filled by anyone, and is getting more and more dated as the years go by. Oracle worked for a bit as a way to make something out of a **** deal, but it's not a foundation worth building a house on. As for representation, which is also important, there are plenty of ways to portray disabled characters without having to also display horrific violence towards women. Especially in a world where the woman is a fictional superhero meant to be fun, exciting, and empowering.

Especially after Burnside, and Rebirth- the way to lean would be Batgirl '66 in aesthetic and a modern Sherlock Holmes in story. Cassandra Cain can be Black Bat, or just also Batgirl.

[ChangingStation]

Barbara Gordon *is* Batgirl. The Killing Joke really needs to be left behind, even Alan Moore agrees. The treatment of Babs is misogynistic and Oracle didn't really improve that.

The role of "person at computer screen" can be filled by anyone, and is getting more and more dated as the years go by. Oracle worked for a bit as a way to make something out of a **** deal, but it's not a foundation worth building a house on. As for representation, there are plenty of ways to have representation and portray disabled characters without having to also display horrific violence towards women. Especially in a world where the woman is a fictional superhero, meant to be fun, exciting, and empowering.

Especially after Burnside, and Rebirth- the way to lean would be Batgirl '66 in aesthetic and a modern Sherlock Holmes in story. Cassandra Cain can be Black Bat, or just also Batgirl.

Careful. Implying that Oracle wasn't empowering has unfortunate implications.

[Rac7d*]

Careful. Implying that Oracle wasn't empowering has unfortunate implications.

The paralyzation in itself was not empowering

[Godlike13]

Killing Joke and Oracle are two separate things. One inadvertently gave way to the other.

[Flash Gordon]

Careful. Implying that Oracle wasn't empowering has unfortunate implications.

I literally just said that you can have (and 100% should have!) empowered characters with disabilities without attaching the constant overbearing brutalization of women narrative that hangs over Babs.

[kjn]

Barbara Gordon *is* Batgirl, outside of that she doesn't have much. The Killing Joke really needs to be left behind, hell even Alan Moore agrees. The treatment of Babs is misogynistic and Oracle didn't really improve that.

The role of "person at computer screen" can be filled by anyone, and is getting more and more dated as the years go by. Oracle worked for a bit as a way to make something out of a **** deal, but it's not a foundation worth building a house on. As for representation, which is also important, there are plenty of ways to portray disabled characters without having to also display horrific violence towards women. Especially in a world where the woman is a fictional superhero meant to be fun, exciting, and empowering.

Ostrander's Suicide Squad run is one of the classic DC runs, and while Oracle was a side character there, she was an important piece of it. And Dixon's and Simone's respective runs of Birds of Prey are also very highly regarded. And then you have stuff like Born of Hope by Yale and Ostrander and Ladies' Night by JMS.

You're correct that "person at computer screen" is a dated trope, but Oracle was more than that, when written well. Babs as Oracle was a team leader, a planner, an organiser, and a teacher. Computers should really be her tools, they should not be what she does.

As for your point about not displaying horrific violence against women, I think the experience of Babs as Oracle versus as Batgirl shows the opposite. Babs-as-Batgirl gets either a constant return to TKJ and its trauma, or a near-total erasure of Babs's experiences. I find neither of those appealing. The one writer who managed to square that circle—Mairghread Scott—did so by, guess what, using the chair as a symbol to externalise what was done to Babs and show how she had managed to move on recover as a person, even if the people around her had failed to do so.

[scary harpy]

Barbara Gordon *is* Batgirl, outside of that she doesn't have much. The Killing Joke really needs to be left behind, hell even Alan Moore agrees. The treatment of Babs is misogynistic and Oracle didn't really improve that.

The Killing Joke is an alternate universe story...and always should have been only just that! It was Black Label before there was Black Label.

Moore strongly implied that Batman kills Joker at the end of TKJ. Strange how that was ignored but her shooting became cannon.

My favorite anecdote about TKJ is Moore asking 'Can we shoot Batgirl?' and Len Wein answered 'Sure, we can put any bitch into the costume.'

Moore didn't even think you could cripple superheroes.

Yes, this misogyny needs to be left in the past...and the more distant that past becomes the better!

The role of "person at computer screen" can be filled by anyone, and is getting more and more dated as the years go by. Oracle worked for a bit as a way to make something out of a **** deal, but it's not a foundation worth building a house on. As for representation, which is also important, there are plenty of ways to portray disabled characters without having to also display horrific violence towards women. Especially in a world where the woman is a fictional superhero meant to be fun, exciting, and empowering.

Especially after Burnside, and Rebirth- the way to lean would be Batgirl '66 in aesthetic and a modern Sherlock Holmes in story. Cassandra Cain can be Black Bat, or just also Batgirl.

The paralyzation in itself was not empowering

Killing Joke and Oracle are two separate things. One inadvertently gave way to the other.

I literally just said that you can have (and 100% should have!) empowered characters with disabilities without attaching the constant overbearing brutalization of women narrative that hangs over Babs.

Agreed with all.

Why can't Babs become Oracle from Batgirl the way Richard became Nightwing from Robin? Why must she be maimed? On that topic...

Bruce's back was broken...he was not in a wheel chair for 20 years. Richard's been shot in the head...he regain his memories and probably not have serious brain damage or paralyzing migraines. Barbara's shot and crippled...

Strange, isn't it?

[Godlike13]

Agreed with all.

Why can't Babs become Oracle from Batgirl the way Richard became Nightwing from Robin? Why must she be maimed? On that topic...

Bruce's back was broken...he was not in a wheel chair for 20 years. Richard's been shot in the head...he regain his memories and probably not have serious brain damage or paralyzing migraines. Barbara's shot and crippled...

Strange, isn't it?

This is an issue for me too. Intentional or not Oracle turns into what she becomes because she can't walk, rather then what she becomes because its who she wants or needs to be.

[Bikkun]

Why is everyone thinking Babs is shot again for this current scenario? We see she's still in the Batgirl costume so it looks more like she's becoming what Rebirth Birds of Prey was leading up before DiDio returned and derailed it.

Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (2016-) - Who is Oracle v1-130.jpg

There's also scenarios like Beware The Batman, the CGI cartoon, where she goes straight to Oracle from the beginning.

[Konja7]

Why is everyone thinking Babs is shot again for this current scenario? We see she's still in the Batgirl costume so it looks more like she's becoming what Rebirth Birds of Prey was leading up before DiDio returned and derailed it.

Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (2016-) - Who is Oracle v1-130.jpg

There's also scenarios like Beware The Batman, the CGI cartoon, where she goes straight to Oracle from the beginning.

Yeah. It is possible Barbara only takes Oracle role out of need, since the entire city is under attack.

We don't even know if Cassandra or Stephanie will be Batgirl again. Cassandra has a suit similar to her original Batgirl suit, but it has differences (even if it was her original Batgirl suit, she could still use another name).


That said, I think Barbara will need a new direction or change for her comic.

[Frontier]

Barbara Gordon *is* Batgirl, outside of that she doesn't have much. The Killing Joke really needs to be left behind, hell even Alan Moore agrees. The treatment of Babs is misogynistic and Oracle didn't really improve that.

I think that's a knock against Barbara's character to say that she doesn't have much outside being Batgirl.

The role of "person at computer screen" can be filled by anyone, and is getting more and more dated as the years go by. Oracle worked for a bit as a way to make something out of a **** deal, but it's not a foundation worth building a house on. As for representation, which is also important, there are plenty of ways to portray disabled characters without having to also display horrific violence towards women. Especially in a world where the woman is a fictional superhero meant to be fun, exciting, and empowering.

Oracle was never about dwelling on violence and horror to women but women picking themselves up from tragedy and re-empowering themselves. And Oracle did more than just sit at a computer screen and hack stuff.

Oracle under Simone wasn't fun, exciting, and empowering?

Especially after Burnside, and Rebirth- the way to lean would be Batgirl '66 in aesthetic and a modern Sherlock Holmes in story. Cassandra Cain can be Black Bat, or just also Batgirl.

That sounds like it should be more of an Elseworlds take than what mainstream Batgirl needs.

The paralyzation in itself was not empowering

No, but what she did with it was.

This is an issue for me too. Intentional or not Oracle turns into what she becomes because she can't walk, rather then what she becomes because its who she wants or needs to be.

Oracle became her finding a new path in-spite of every setback and finding a true calling and position for herself that she never achieved as Batgirl. It wasn't what she wanted for herself, but she owned it and made it into who she is and became integral to the Batfamily for an entire era.

[Digifiend]

Yeah. It is possible Barbara only takes Oracle role out of need, since the entire city is under attack.

We don't even know if Cassandra or Stephanie will be Batgirl again. Cassandra has a suit similar to her original Batgirl suit, but it has differences (even if it was her original Batgirl suit, she could still use another name).


That said, I think Barbara will need a new direction or change for her comic.

Yeah, we can't even see a wheelchair in that art, all we see is bespectacled Babs typing on a keyboard. So we don't know that she'll be crippled again. It's possible that the injury Punchline gave her (she slashed her leg with a sword) in Nightwing has benched her temporarily, prompting her to run mission control instead of fighting in person.