Janet Van Dyne: The Wasp Appreciation 2020

[Captain M]

Because whether or not she wrote a good Wasp has nothing to do with the utterly insane shit she says in real life, lol.

Doesn't matter how she wrote her; that she wrote her alone says a lot to me. No one else could ever apparently

[Holt]

Doesn't matter how she wrote her; that she wrote her alone says a lot to me. No one else could ever apparently

Okay? My point is that the two statements have nothing to do with one another whatsoever. She developed a negative reputation for the insane things she says in her videos and on social media. That has nothing to do with her writing of the Wasp.

[Captain M]

Okay? My point is that the two statements have nothing to do with one another whatsoever. She developed a negative reputation for the insane things she says in her videos and on social media. That has nothing to do with her writing of the Wasp.

People blow it out of proportions.

My point is you can't claim to be a progressive feminist if your idea of a good represention for women doesn't also include the female character that has embraced her femininity, is flirty, bubbly but also capable of a lot; isn't a genius but is a successful business woman.

I was dissing pretty much all the female writers that worked with/for Marvel in the last decade for refusing to touch on Janet moreso than I was praising Grace Randolph. Clear now?

[Holt]

People blow it out of proportions.

My point is you can't claim to be a progressive feminist if your idea of a good represention for women doesn't also include the female character that has embraced her femininity, is flirty, bubbly but also capable of a lot; isn't a genius but is a successful business woman.

I was dissing pretty much all the female writers that worked with/for Marvel in the last decade for refusing to touch on Janet moreso than I was praising Grace Randolph. Clear now?

Yeah, I know what you were trying to do. It's just a silly argument, is all.

Though I'm sure when the Wasp vs. Jessica Chastain one-shot is out, all will be forgiven.

[Dermie]

I was dissing pretty much all the female writers that worked with/for Marvel in the last decade for refusing to touch on Janet

Are there actually any female writers at Marvel (past or present) who have "refused" to use Janet?

[Shadowcat]

Are there actually any female writers at Marvel (past or present) who have "refused" to use Janet?

I think Gail Simone did.

[Holt]

Yes. She started a minor controversy some years back when she publicly thanked Bendis on Twitter for killing off Jan during Secret Invasion, and tagged it with #WomenWhoDeserveTheRefrigerator or something like that. She explained her stance some time later by saying she used to resent the Wasp because she felt the character was emblematic of everything wrong with the way Stan Lee wrote female characters during the 60s.

Which, I guess I can understand, but it seems rather stupid since you could also lob that complaint at Sue Storm and Jean Grey (who were absolutely USELESS under Stan Lee for anything other than getting kidnapped by villains or condescended to by their male teammates), and yet I don't remember Simone hating them.

[Dermie]

Yes. She started a minor controversy some years back when she publicly thanked Bendis on Twitter for killing off Jan during Secret Invasion, and tagged it with #WomenWhoDeserveTheRefrigerator or something like that. She explained her stance some time later by saying she used to resent the Wasp because she felt the character was emblematic of everything wrong with the way Stan Lee wrote female characters during the 60s.

Which, I guess I can understand, but it seems rather stupid since you could also lob that complaint at Sue Storm and Jean Grey (who were absolutely USELESS under Stan Lee for anything other than getting kidnapped by villains or condescended to by their male teammates), and yet I don't remember Simone hating them.

Wow. Given how far Jan had evolved since those days--including some excellent stints as Avengers leader--it seems incredibly short-sighted and dismissive of Simone to take such an attitude. I can understand her resenting the way Wasp was written in the early days, because it was pretty bad at times. But to thank Bendis for killing her off, when she had evolved beyond that portrayal decades earlier? That's rather disgusting, imo.

Clearly her attitude has changed since then though--since she didn't refuse to write Jan during her guest writer stint on IRON MAN last year. In fact, she gave Jan a decent role in the story and wrote her quite well, I thought. Its good to see she moved past her previous resentment of the character and embraced the wonderful character Janet has grown into.

[Holt]

Indeed. Jan has probably had some of the best character development of any Marvel heroine.

[Captain M]

Not choosing to write Jan (and I don't mean like as a lead or anything) time after time is not so much different than refusing to use her. Kelly Thompson's books in the last 5 years had room for hundreds of cameos from different characters, not once from Janet. She is just one example, because she is a major writer. Leah Williams won't ever acknowledge her either. But they'll make sure to give cameos to the genius and the fresh Wasp, Nadia. Because being young and smart makes you top tier representation automatically

But really, Jan fans are surviving thanks to people like Zub and Slott and Waid and that's just funny. I don't know if there is ONE other female character that only men write. I'm thankful to them though, Zub especially. Whitley too didn't have to use Jan to the capacity he did in UW.

Then you have people like Lorraine Cink, truly sweet and great, that doesn't even include Jan in her Powers of a Girl book ???

[Frontier]

Not choosing to write Jan (and I don't mean like as a lead or anything) time after time is not so much different than refusing to use her. Kelly Thompson's books in the last 5 years had room for hundreds of cameos from different characters, not once from Janet. She is just one example, because she is a major writer. Leah Williams won't ever acknowledge her either. But they'll make sure to give cameos to the genius and the fresh Wasp, Nadia. Because being young and smart makes you top tier representation automatically

But really, Jan fans are surviving thanks to people like Zub and Slott and Waid and that's just funny. I don't know if there is ONE other female character that only men write. I'm thankful to them though, Zub especially. Whitley too didn't have to use Jan to the capacity he did in UW.

Then you have people like Lorraine Cink, truly sweet and great, that doesn't even include Jan in her Powers of a Girl book ???

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like female writers gravitate more towards more modern female Marvel heroes (or those who have gotten very visible public updates) while male writers seem more likely to use classic Avenger ladies.

[Mary Jay]

Yes. She started a minor controversy some years back when she publicly thanked Bendis on Twitter for killing off Jan during Secret Invasion, and tagged it with #WomenWhoDeserveTheRefrigerator or something like that. She explained her stance some time later by saying she used to resent the Wasp because she felt the character was emblematic of everything wrong with the way Stan Lee wrote female characters during the 60s.

Which, I guess I can understand, but it seems rather stupid since you could also lob that complaint at Sue Storm and Jean Grey (who were absolutely USELESS under Stan Lee for anything other than getting kidnapped by villains or condescended to by their male teammates), and yet I don't remember Simone hating them.

Wow... it's almost as though she hasn't read anything written after 1970...!

[stingray]

Yeah, I recently reread a bunch of older stuff that I hadn't looked at since I was a kid. Wow! In FF, both Sue and Crystal seemed to constantly need to be protected, and were told to leave before a battle started, despite the two of them arguably being the most powerful in the group. Sue was actually shown wearing an apron over her costume in one panel! Jan WAS continually disrespected in a lot of those stories, but every other female character at the time was treated exactly the same way. Different era, different values. Women characters being called "silly females" was pretty commonplace in a lot of those books.

[Captain M]

It's worth noting Gail Simone wrote Jan for an issue while filling in for Iron Man. She had no choice since she was a part of the book's cast but she did a nice job.

I don't know how she feels about her now compared to before.

I know Kelly Thompson spoke about not caring for Jan on reddit and it shows. It shows with Wanda too but Wanda has a lot of fans and when you write a lot of books and feature a ton of characters, it starts sticking out when someone like the Scarlet Witch never happens to be a guest in your books. That and the allegations about what she said about Wanda finally led her to write her in Star.
Janet fanbase isn't big enough to tweet Kelly asking why she never has her in any of her books ever.

I know Leah Williams liked some tweets dissing Janet's actions in Iron Man, so she isn't big fan either.

Like I said, I know Janet isn't popular AT ALL among the female creators currently working for Marvel (pretty sure KSD had nothing against her) but I don't know any more specifics so I won't name any other names

[Electricmastro]

Yeah, I recently reread a bunch of older stuff that I hadn't looked at since I was a kid. Wow! In FF, both Sue and Crystal seemed to constantly need to be protected, and were told to leave before a battle started, despite the two of them arguably being the most powerful in the group. Sue was actually shown wearing an apron over her costume in one panel! Jan WAS continually disrespected in a lot of those stories, but every other female character at the time was treated exactly the same way. Different era, different values. Women characters being called "silly females" was pretty commonplace in a lot of those books.

I suppose one should expect much from the baby boom generation, when it was common to expect women being housewives taking care of the baby in a post-World War II era, even though women had been previously doing more active roles in World War II. Not to say bad writing of female characters had gone away after 1970 of course, but I suppose there is quite a difference in the landscape when you see characters like Storm and Elektra popping up after that.