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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Tien, I've read both the above post and your post over in the Kaine thread -- thanks for reigniting the conversation, and I hope you're enjoying your Spidey-Clone re-reread!

    While I 100% agree with your posts, one somewhat pedantic difference I'd suggest is that what we need -- rather than a "conclusion" or wrapping-up of loose ends -- is a true and honest ongoing that utilizes elements of the characters' past when it makes sense to do so. I don't want a conclusion, y'know? I don't want another "end" to Ben Reilly's story. I want a new beginning, and I want Kaine along for the ride of course.

    Think about all there is for future writers to mine:

    ~the Lost Years era for the characters
    ~the enemies and cast for Ben Reilly when he became Scarlet Spider, then Spidey
    ~the enemies and cast for Kaine when he operated in Houston
    ~everyone now connected to Ben Reilly due to Clone Conspiracy
    ~the enemies and cast for both Ben and Kaine in Las Vegas

    If it were up to me, I'd have Ben and Kaine stationed in Las Vegas but with stories throughout the American Southwest and even into Mexico, Central America, and South America -- thanks in part to their commitment to keep Aracely safe, but also due to a major adversary for them, the Black Tarantula. Ben would be exploring who he really wants to be as a person, and Kaine would begin experiencing a redux of his original clone degeneration; however, this would bring him and Ben closer as brothers -- at least while Kaine's mind remains mostly intact. They'd essentially be the co-leaders of the Slingers, who would help them infiltrate the various crime syndicates in Las Vegas and other nearby cities.

    I think a setup like this allows for all kinds of interesting plots, including the opportunity for the writer to bring in elements from these characters' pasts. Like, Houston and Salt Lake City aren't too far away from Las Vegas. Or, maybe Buzz from the Daily Grind is gambling in Vegas and realizes Ben is alive -- maybe he alerts Shirley and/or Jessica? Perhaps you bring back Lady Ock, Stunner, Joystick. Perhaps you bring back the Lobo Werewolves and the Salamander. But you definitely also have to push the story forward: introducing new concepts for the Scarlet Spiders to encounter; opportunities for them to grow and become stronger and perhaps even more popular characters, with an established cast of intriguing characters of all kinds and major themes that speak to the readership. Relying only on past stories won't do, but ignoring those past stories (*cough* PAD *cough*) doesn't work either.

    -Pav, who agrees that some Scarlet Spider stories should be things you just can't do with Spider-Man...
    I like all of this, though I would also throw in the much-hinted rise of Mictlan, the Aztec underworld, from Kaine's time as Scarlet Spider and Aracely's guardian. Could even have Mictlan forcing Ben to act as its champion in the same way Kaine acts as Aracely's champion, a form of punishment for tampering in the realm of life and death with the "reanimates" he created as the Jackal. Speaking of, an ongoing plot thread could be Ben (and Kaine) tracking the surviving "reanimates" and taking down the ones who squandered the "second chance" they got by reverting to criminality, which would force Ben to examine his responsibility for unleashing them upon the world and what he's been doing with his own second chance at life.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #32
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Tien, I've read both the above post and your post over in the Kaine thread -- thanks for reigniting the conversation, and I hope you're enjoying your Spidey-Clone re-reread!

    While I 100% agree with your posts, one somewhat pedantic difference I'd suggest is that what we need -- rather than a "conclusion" or wrapping-up of loose ends -- is a true and honest ongoing that utilizes elements of the characters' past when it makes sense to do so. I don't want a conclusion, y'know? I don't want another "end" to Ben Reilly's story. I want a new beginning, and I want Kaine along for the ride of course.

    Think about all there is for future writers to mine:

    ~the Lost Years era for the characters
    ~the enemies and cast for Ben Reilly when he became Scarlet Spider, then Spidey
    ~the enemies and cast for Kaine when he operated in Houston
    ~everyone now connected to Ben Reilly due to Clone Conspiracy
    ~the enemies and cast for both Ben and Kaine in Las Vegas

    If it were up to me, I'd have Ben and Kaine stationed in Las Vegas but with stories throughout the American Southwest and even into Mexico, Central America, and South America -- thanks in part to their commitment to keep Aracely safe, but also due to a major adversary for them, the Black Tarantula. Ben would be exploring who he really wants to be as a person, and Kaine would begin experiencing a redux of his original clone degeneration; however, this would bring him and Ben closer as brothers -- at least while Kaine's mind remains mostly intact. They'd essentially be the co-leaders of the Slingers, who would help them infiltrate the various crime syndicates in Las Vegas and other nearby cities.

    I think a setup like this allows for all kinds of interesting plots, including the opportunity for the writer to bring in elements from these characters' pasts. Like, Houston and Salt Lake City aren't too far away from Las Vegas. Or, maybe Buzz from the Daily Grind is gambling in Vegas and realizes Ben is alive -- maybe he alerts Shirley and/or Jessica? Perhaps you bring back Lady Ock, Stunner, Joystick. Perhaps you bring back the Lobo Werewolves and the Salamander. But you definitely also have to push the story forward: introducing new concepts for the Scarlet Spiders to encounter; opportunities for them to grow and become stronger and perhaps even more popular characters, with an established cast of intriguing characters of all kinds and major themes that speak to the readership. Relying only on past stories won't do, but ignoring those past stories (*cough* PAD *cough*) doesn't work either.

    -Pav, who agrees that some Scarlet Spider stories should be things you just can't do with Spider-Man...
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I like all of this, though I would also throw in the much-hinted rise of Mictlan, the Aztec underworld, from Kaine's time as Scarlet Spider and Aracely's guardian. Could even have Mictlan forcing Ben to act as its champion in the same way Kaine acts as Aracely's champion, a form of punishment for tampering in the realm of life and death with the "reanimates" he created as the Jackal. Speaking of, an ongoing plot thread could be Ben (and Kaine) tracking the surviving "reanimates" and taking down the ones who squandered the "second chance" they got by reverting to criminality, which would force Ben to examine his responsibility for unleashing them upon the world and what he's been doing with his own second chance at life.
    Dudes, these are fantastic ideas! Yeah, what I meant before was there should be a tying up of loose ends which would set up for a new beginning. Ben and Kaine's pasts are both ripe for use. In some ways, they both intertwine. Personally, I'd love to see Black Tarantula as the main baddie for these two (Black Tarantula is another character that deserves some rehabilitation. He got nerf'd during his appearances in Daredevil. C'mon, this was the guy that ripped off Spider-Man's mask and kept it as a trophy! Guy who's latest in a legacy of badass villains).

    SO yeah, Scarlet Spiders heading up a revamped Slingers in Las Vegas who patrol the Southwest. That's got to be done.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    SO yeah, Scarlet Spiders heading up a revamped Slingers in Las Vegas who patrol the Southwest. That's got to be done.
    And of course this will inevitably lead to the Cowboy Scarlet Spider costume variant than Ben will don for one issue.

    -Pav, who'll buy the Pop figure...
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Dudes, these are fantastic ideas! Yeah, what I meant before was there should be a tying up of loose ends which would set up for a new beginning. Ben and Kaine's pasts are both ripe for use. In some ways, they both intertwine. Personally, I'd love to see Black Tarantula as the main baddie for these two (Black Tarantula is another character that deserves some rehabilitation. He got nerf'd during his appearances in Daredevil. C'mon, this was the guy that ripped off Spider-Man's mask and kept it as a trophy! Guy who's latest in a legacy of badass villains).

    SO yeah, Scarlet Spiders heading up a revamped Slingers in Las Vegas who patrol the Southwest. That's got to be done.
    Black Tarantula would be great to have back as an antagonist for the Scarlet Spider(s). Given that he was both significantly stronger and faster than Spider-Man in his prime, it'd be interesting to see him go up against Kaine, who might be closer to matching him in terms of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    And of course this will inevitably lead to the Cowboy Scarlet Spider costume variant than Ben will don for one issue.

    -Pav, who'll buy the Pop figure...
    That time Kaine went into battle in a rodeo . . . and didn't have a cowboy hat on.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I like all of this, though I would also throw in the much-hinted rise of Mictlan, the Aztec underworld, from Kaine's time as Scarlet Spider and Aracely's guardian. Could even have Mictlan forcing Ben to act as its champion in the same way Kaine acts as Aracely's champion, a form of punishment for tampering in the realm of life and death with the "reanimates" he created as the Jackal. Speaking of, an ongoing plot thread could be Ben (and Kaine) tracking the surviving "reanimates" and taking down the ones who squandered the "second chance" they got by reverting to criminality, which would force Ben to examine his responsibility for unleashing them upon the world and what he's been doing with his own second chance at life.
    I like your idea of both Ben and Kaine becoming (possibly competing) champions for deities on the brink of a holy war. Truly, if PAD's series gave us anything, it was showing us how compelling the relationship is between Ben and Kaine as it shifts from mortal enemies to brothers, so seeing them placed in opposing positions on the chess board will always make for good storytelling, I think.

    That being said, if I'm continuing the fantasy that I'm writing this title, I think I might try to, as naturally as possible, connect Aracely's Aztec subplot into my idea of the Black Tarantula attempting to gain control of the Web of Life and Death. Simultaneous and connected apocalypses in both the physical and spiritual realms? Sounds good to me.

    I'm not an expert on South American mythologies, but maybe Ai Apaec could play a vital role.

    -Pav, who wants to see Ben and Kaine taking on the Arachnix, the Thousand, Doppelganger...
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I like your idea of both Ben and Kaine becoming (possibly competing) champions for deities on the brink of a holy war. Truly, if PAD's series gave us anything, it was showing us how compelling the relationship is between Ben and Kaine as it shifts from mortal enemies to brothers, so seeing them placed in opposing positions on the chess board will always make for good storytelling, I think.

    That being said, if I'm continuing the fantasy that I'm writing this title, I think I might try to, as naturally as possible, connect Aracely's Aztec subplot into my idea of the Black Tarantula attempting to gain control of the Web of Life and Death. Simultaneous and connected apocalypses in both the physical and spiritual realms? Sounds good to me.

    I'm not an expert on South American mythologies, but maybe Ai Apaec could play a vital role.

    -Pav, who wants to see Ben and Kaine taking on the Arachnix, the Thousand, Doppelganger...
    Thanks. That could actually work, and I'm not such an expert, either, though there is the Great Goddess of Teotihuacan, sourced from pre-colonization Mexico, who is associated with spiders to the point of also being named the "Teotihuacan Spider Woman." Could possibly invoke her as a connection to Aracely being the reincarnation of Huitzilopochtli, and in turn a patron to the Scarlet Spider(s) in a manner similar to how Anansi was thematically connected to Spider-Man himself during J. Michael Straczynski's Spider-Man run. As for Ai Apaec and Black Tarantula, could have Ai Apaec as the source of the Black Tarantula's power and lineage over the generations, which would factor into Black Tarantula's efforts to gain control of the Web of Life and Destiny, which is still regenerating after the events of Spider-Geddon.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    I'd love to see Black Tarantula as the main baddie for these two (Black Tarantula is another character that deserves some rehabilitation. He got nerf'd during his appearances in Daredevil. C'mon, this was the guy that ripped off Spider-Man's mask and kept it as a trophy!
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Black Tarantula would be great to have back as an antagonist for the Scarlet Spider(s). Given that he was both significantly stronger and faster than Spider-Man in his prime...
    The more I consider it, the more right it feels that Black Tarantula become a major antagonist for Ben and Kaine. As you both said, Black Tarantula was literally an impossible threat for Spidey to overcome, so he poses an incredible threat for even two Spider-Men in Ben and Kaine.

    Plus, there's the whole colored-adjective thing, which I don't discount as part of the basic charm -- not to mention the fact that Ben and Kaine have experience in geographical areas we might expect the Black Tarantula to do business.

    Obviously the Jackal will always be Threat #1 for our Scarlet Spidey Clone Bros -- but you can't rely on a single villain, and super-powered street crime stories definitely fit within the confines of Spidey stories successfully. Peter doesn't really need Black Tarantula in his regular rogues gallery, but he would be a perfect fit for Ben and Kaine.

    If Peter's Big 3 are Norman, Ock, and Venom...

    And Ben and Kaine share both the Jackal and Black Tarantula...

    I wonder who their third major baddie should be!

    -Pav, who headcanons that the BT we see in Daredevil and Iron Fist comics is really the previously-unseen eldest son of the BT we saw in Amazing Spider-Man back in the day...
    Last edited by Pav; 05-12-2020 at 09:41 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    The more I consider it, the more right it feels that Black Tarantula become a major antagonist for Ben and Kaine. As you both said, Black Tarantula was literally an impossible threat for Spidey to overcome, so he poses an incredible threat for even two Spider-Men in Ben and Kaine.

    Plus, there's the whole colored-adjective thing, which I don't discount as part of the basic charm -- not to mention the fact that Ben and Kaine have experience in geographical areas we might expect the Black Tarantula to do business.

    Obviously the Jackal will always be Threat #1 for our Scarlet Spidey Clone Bros -- but you can't rely on a single villain, and super-powered street crime stories definitely fit within the confines of Spidey stories successfully. Peter doesn't really need Black Tarantula in his regular rogues gallery, but he would be a perfect fit for Ben and Kaine.

    If Peter's Big 3 are Norman, Ock, and Venom...

    And Ben and Kaine share both the Jackal and Black Tarantula...

    I wonder who their third major baddie should be!

    -Pav, who headcanons that the BT we see in Daredevil and Iron Fist comics is really the previously-unseen eldest son of the BT we saw in Amazing Spider-Man back in the day...
    That would be an interesting twist, having inherited his father's power and legacy, but wanting to go his own way, which could arguably parallel the Scarlet Spiders being born of Peter's DNA and thus sharing his powers and memories, though not wanting to be defined by their "source material" anymore than Black Tarantula, Jr. wants to be defined by his. As for a third major bad guy for the Scarlet Spiders, could dust off the Diogenes Initiative and try to do something actually worthwhile with them, given that the Marvel Database lists them as a super-soldier program similar to or descending from the likes of Project Rebirth/Weapon Plus. Either that, or the Great Game from Ben's time as Spider-Man, an underground superhuman fight club run by wealthy and unscrupulous people who bet on the superpowered fighters, who may be directly engineered by those wealthy benefactors to fight for their entertainment. Could have them set up in Las Vegas, too, which is the gambling hub of the United States, and maybe throw in Diogenes as having taken part in the Great Game to scout for talent to recruit, as it were.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #39
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    This is probably going to trigger some people, but in my opinion the only Spider-Men aside from Peter that we need in 616 are Ben & Kaine. Miles & Gwen get a pass because they aren't actually from 616, and are unique/popular enough to continue making money for Marvel. As for the millions of other Spider-People within 616, I just don't care about them. I grew up with Peter Parker, then in the 90's it was Ben & Peter & Miguel in a separate series. When I stepped away from the comic, Kaine was still a villain and was in prison for killing a detective. I read up on his redemption arc (years after Ben's death) and found it interesting, and I surmised that Kaine should be a big part of Ben's life and future stories, there IS potential there -- Editorial just doesn't want to do anything with them because I guess they don't appeal to the modern demographic of readers or whatever. I wonder how many more years it will be before Spider-Gwen and Miles become passe`?
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That would be an interesting twist, having inherited his father's power and legacy, but wanting to go his own way, which could arguably parallel the Scarlet Spiders being born of Peter's DNA and thus sharing his powers and memories, though not wanting to be defined by their "source material" anymore than Black Tarantula, Jr. wants to be defined by his. As for a third major bad guy for the Scarlet Spiders, could dust off the Diogenes Initiative and try to do something actually worthwhile with them, given that the Marvel Database lists them as a super-soldier program similar to or descending from the likes of Project Rebirth/Weapon Plus. Either that, or the Great Game from Ben's time as Spider-Man, an underground superhuman fight club run by wealthy and unscrupulous people who bet on the superpowered fighters, who may be directly engineered by those wealthy benefactors to fight for their entertainment. Could have them set up in Las Vegas, too, which is the gambling hub of the United States, and maybe throw in Diogenes as having taken part in the Great Game to scout for talent to recruit, as it were.

    Y'know, Hunt -- you make a great point. Perhaps in all other contexts, the Great Game is kind 90s cheesy, with no real connective tissue to the characters themselves and therefore no personal stakes or emotional connection between hero and villain...

    And yet, the Great Game makes 100% total sense as some illegal operation set up within Las Vegas. It really makes perfect sense as a location, considering -- as you said -- it's basically just an opportunity for the ultra-rich to play with real-life action figures. That being said, perhaps Joystick becomes a huge part of our fantasy Scarlet Spiders comic -- maybe filling the role that Black Cat fills for Peter: someone who plays dirty and is in the fight for all the wrong reasons, yet always seems to romance her way out of trouble with both Ben and Kaine.

    -Pav, who wonders when Marvel's going to call us considering we've got so much already worked out...
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Y'know, Hunt -- you make a great point. Perhaps in all other contexts, the Great Game is kind 90s cheesy, with no real connective tissue to the characters themselves and therefore no personal stakes or emotional connection between hero and villain...

    And yet, the Great Game makes 100% total sense as some illegal operation set up within Las Vegas. It really makes perfect sense as a location, considering -- as you said -- it's basically just an opportunity for the ultra-rich to play with real-life action figures. That being said, perhaps Joystick becomes a huge part of our fantasy Scarlet Spiders comic -- maybe filling the role that Black Cat fills for Peter: someone who plays dirty and is in the fight for all the wrong reasons, yet always seems to romance her way out of trouble with both Ben and Kaine.

    -Pav, who wonders when Marvel's going to call us considering we've got so much already worked out...
    Sadly, they probably won't, because they likely don't want to end up on the legal hook for ripping off fans' ideas without proper compensation. Still, I definitely agree with reintroducing Joystick . . . she was so much fun in both Ben Reilly's time as the sole web-slinger of New York and later in Fabian Nicieza's Thunderbolts.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Sadly, they probably won't, because they likely don't want to end up on the legal hook for ripping off fans' ideas without proper compensation. Still, I definitely agree with reintroducing Joystick . . . she was so much fun in both Ben Reilly's time as the sole web-slinger of New York and later in Fabian Nicieza's Thunderbolts.
    How about the MVP clone as the 3rd Scarlet Spider and Joe Wade as one of the villians?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Clone View Post
    How about the MVP clone as the 3rd Scarlet Spider and Joe Wade as one of the villians?
    Thanks for reminding me of those two. Cyber Scarlet Spider was an interesting twist, as was the MVP clone trio as Scarlet Spiders wearing copies of the Iron Spider Armor in Avengers: The Initiative. If I recall right, the one named Patrick is still alive, so there would be room for him to come back.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Clone View Post
    How about the MVP clone as the 3rd Scarlet Spider and Joe Wade as one of the villians?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Thanks for reminding me of those two. Cyber Scarlet Spider was an interesting twist, as was the MVP clone trio as Scarlet Spiders wearing copies of the Iron Spider Armor in Avengers: The Initiative. If I recall right, the one named Patrick is still alive, so there would be room for him to come back.
    As someone who loves when writers find new and exciting uses for forgotten characters from earlier in continuity, I'd be happy to see either come back in a meaningful way. Joe Wade is an interesting situation: the character is almost completely a blank slate, as we really only know he was infiltrating Lady Ock's crime operation for SHIELD(?) up until he became corrupted by her Scarlet Spider virtual reality virus. I mean, the name Joe Wade probably isn't even his real name! Any writer who wanted to bring him back could really have a field day with this character, I think.

    Similarly, I think there's a lot of promise for Patrick in a Scarlet Spiders book. If it were up to me, I'd have Patrick feeling absolutely lost without Michael and Van; after meeting Ben, I'd have Patrick begging to be cloned so that he can be part of a set of triplets again. Obviously Ben would now be put into a tough situation morally, and the fallout from his choice could have fantastic ramifications on the characters going forward.

    -Pav, who wonders what the relationship between all the Scarlet Spiders and the New Warriors should be like in future stories...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    As someone who loves when writers find new and exciting uses for forgotten characters from earlier in continuity, I'd be happy to see either come back in a meaningful way. Joe Wade is an interesting situation: the character is almost completely a blank slate, as we really only know he was infiltrating Lady Ock's crime operation for SHIELD(?) up until he became corrupted by her Scarlet Spider virtual reality virus. I mean, the name Joe Wade probably isn't even his real name! Any writer who wanted to bring him back could really have a field day with this character, I think.

    Similarly, I think there's a lot of promise for Patrick in a Scarlet Spiders book. If it were up to me, I'd have Patrick feeling absolutely lost without Michael and Van; after meeting Ben, I'd have Patrick begging to be cloned so that he can be part of a set of triplets again. Obviously Ben would now be put into a tough situation morally, and the fallout from his choice could have fantastic ramifications on the characters going forward.

    -Pav, who wonders what the relationship between all the Scarlet Spiders and the New Warriors should be like in future stories...
    The FBI, actually, though considering the FBI seems to be taking up where S.H.I.E.L.D. left off, at least on the U.S.-based side of things, after being disbanded . . .

    And yes, Patrick finding out that Ben can clone/"reanimate" people as long as he has DNA taken directly from their remains . . . that would be quite the moral dilemma for him.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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