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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Me too but there isn't a reason beyond Johns not thinking about using him or caring too.

    It is what it is.

    In universe, you could say Duke is less driven to avenge his parents because he isn't a vengeful person. He rather cure his parents than kill the Joker. Which Gnonom could use to his advantage in a future arc.........
    Wouldn't Joker know a cure? Especially if he should gas himself?


    f anything, didn't people speculate Harper would become Bruce's new sidekick?
    Harper came at a time where her Bat sisters named Cassandra & Steph were deem PITCH TOXIC by a former head of DC. So like Wallace West you could say both were made to replace those who got tossed away. Probably the same with Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz since Dc was trying to kill John off.

    I don't think Gnomon or his parents were ever mentioned by Duke, or anyone, once in the entire run.
    Never mentioned once.

    I don't think Duke was suppose to be more than that kid that met Bruce and that was it. Even with Damian dead. Remember there seemed to be a huge age jump between that first meeting and Endgame.
    Damian and Duke should probably be the same age. If we go by the New 52 5 year gap mess. If Duke was what 9-10 when he met Batman. 15 by Endgame. Damian was what 11-12 at the time of Rebirth.

    Something else caused this. Because how else do we explain his origin and powers varying from writer to writer. We Are Robin era doesn't fit with anything and you could say the same for the mini.

    Those two fit together but Outsiders, Detective and Batman books don't.

  2. #197

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    He would but I don't see Duke trusting the Joker to be straight with him. Gnonom has more incentive to see Elaine cured.

  3. #198
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Wouldn't Joker know a cure? Especially if he should gas himself?




    Harper came at a time where her Bat sisters named Cassandra & Steph were deem PITCH TOXIC by a former head of DC. So like Wallace West you could say both were made to replace those who got tossed away. Probably the same with Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz since Dc was trying to kill John off.



    Never mentioned once.

    I don't think Duke was suppose to be more than that kid that met Bruce and that was it. Even with Damian dead. Remember there seemed to be a huge age jump between that first meeting and Endgame.
    Damian and Duke should probably be the same age. If we go by the New 52 5 year gap mess. If Duke was what 9-10 when he met Batman. 15 by Endgame. Damian was what 11-12 at the time of Rebirth.

    Something else caused this. Because how else do we explain his origin and powers varying from writer to writer. We Are Robin era doesn't fit with anything and you could say the same for the mini.

    Those two fit together but Outsiders, Detective and Batman books don't.
    there was a big age jump because Zero Year was a effectively a flashback to when Bruce was new to Batman. Duke and Damian weren't supposed to be the same age, I'm not sure where your getting them from. Duke's origin has been consistent with every book he's in. Mom's a social worker, parents get jokerized in Endgame, and he starts fighting crime. We are Robin literally starts recapping Endgame, and follows him dealing with the fallout with him looking for his parents. He's still wearing his We are Robin uniform when Bruce recruits him in Batman, then from there we follow is training in All-Star Batman which ends with his powers awakening at the end. After that we see them again in Dark Days/Metal which leads directly into his mini; which has the same characters from from We are Robin in it. to say his story doesn't connect is more than a stretch, it's flatly not true. the only thing that changes his powers is Outsiders, otherwise his powers have been pretty consistent even in his guest appearances since they were introduced in Dark Days/All-Star Batman. the only thing that's been inconsistent with Duke from writer to writer has been the way his character works or acts in the given narrative he's in and, with the exception of Hill, most of the writers who've written him at least get him in the ballpark of the previous one's characterization; even if he's not always used to his fullest potential.

    I don't think Duke was ever supposed to be just a kid because that's just not how Snyder's storytelling method works. everything, if he empathizes it, is meant to come to bear somewhere else down the road. he may drop an idea because he has too many things he's balancing (Justice League) but nothing is ever as simple as "oh that's just a kid he met that one time". Even the black kid Robin vision was a Snyder idea (iirc) before Duke came to bear, who became the unofficial black Robin years down the road. it's one of his strong points and, paradoxically, one of his biggest issues because a lot of time it takes too long to come to bear and it's not always worth the wait.
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  4. #199

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    If Duke was Damian's age, he would've just been one of Damian's supporting characters. He would've been forgotten by the next run and wouldn't have gotten the focus he did.

    I can buy that Snyder's plans for Duke changed along the way and that's not a problem for me. Storytelling is more alchemy than chemistry and you never know whats gonna hit. I prefer him as the Signal than Robin VI or VII but they dropped the ball with his debut as the Signal to me. Rebirth should've had a Signal Solo by Snyder.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 07-29-2020 at 01:36 PM.

  5. #200
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    If Duke was Damian's age, he would've just been one of Damian's supporting characters. He would've been forgotten by the next run and wouldn't have gotten the focus he did.

    I can buy that Snyder's plans for Duke changed along the way and that's not a problem for me. Storytelling is more alchemy than chemistry and you never know whats gonna hit. I prefer him as the Signal than Robin VI or VII but they dropped the ball with his debut as the Signal to me. Rebirth should've had a Signal Solo by Snyder.
    I agree, they botched his debut. Signal's name and power reveal should've played a role in the actual Metal event, not tangentially in the prelude, and put him center stage. he doesn't need to save the day but he should have been a factor. then they should've had his solo come immediately after and at least be 6-12 issues minimum. Snyder should be attached but he doesn't have to be the sole writer, him as a co-writer could've been fine like on his mini but they did the bare minimum and it shows because years later he's still struggling to establish himself. So now people, like Hill, still only see him as a supporting cast newbie that's too new to be competent, and that's not how you sell a character. And I'll always say this, his costume solely affirming Batman does not help with people seeing him as his own hero to be developed beyond his bat connection. if he's supposed to be "something new" then show us.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 07-29-2020 at 09:39 PM.
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  6. #201
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    If Duke was Damian's age, he would've just been one of Damian's supporting characters. He would've been forgotten by the next run and wouldn't have gotten the focus he did.

    I can buy that Snyder's plans for Duke changed along the way and that's not a problem for me. Storytelling is more alchemy than chemistry and you never know whats gonna hit. I prefer him as the Signal than Robin VI or VII but they dropped the ball with his debut as the Signal to me. Rebirth should've had a Signal Solo by Snyder.
    He would've been Robin VI. Damian is Robin V, after Dick, Jason, Tim and Steph.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Harper came at a time where her Bat sisters named Cassandra & Steph were deem PITCH TOXIC by a former head of DC. So like Wallace West you could say both were made to replace those who got tossed away. Probably the same with Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz since Dc was trying to kill John off.
    Yeah, Jessica's going to be around for the long haul, they're used her in other media. Simon wasn't as successful though and isn't currently in use.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Ah, okay. (And Oracle, as in Babs?)
    Yes. Those pages show Babs sat at a computer, in glasses. However, she's wearing her Batgirl costume (sans mask) and I don't think she's in a wheelchair.
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  7. #202
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    Speaking of Zero Year, if Duke's a high schooler and around the same age as Tim or younger, then if Zero Year is placed in Everything Is Canon timeline, it would happen about just before Jason becomes Robin. At that time Dick has left for college out of town and Batman's operating solo in Gotham. It should be the right time to do a story of Riddler taking Gotham hostage and introduce kid Duke.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Speaking of Zero Year, if Duke's a high schooler and around the same age as Tim or younger, then if Zero Year is placed in Everything Is Canon timeline, it would happen about just before Jason becomes Robin. At that time Dick has left for college out of town and Batman's operating solo in Gotham. It should be the right time to do a story of Riddler taking Gotham hostage and introduce kid Duke.
    Duke is supposed to be a year younger than Tim if not the same age considering the last stated age for Tim as 17 (iirc) which was around the Gotham Knights era of Detective, which is not too long after We are Robin where Duke was revealed to be 16. that's not taking into account the passage of time in the DC universes like Duke's 1+ year of training and the time jump during year of the Villain. If everything becomes canon again, wouldn't that push up the timeline even more, making both Tim and Duke significantly older? around late teens early 20's?
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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Duke is supposed to be a year younger than Tim if not the same age considering the last stated age for Tim as 17 (iirc) which was around the Gotham Knights era of Detective, which is not too long after We are Robin where Duke was revealed to be 16. that's not taking into account the passage of time in the DC universes like Duke's 1+ year of training and the time jump during year of the Villain. If everything becomes canon again, wouldn't that push up the timeline even more, making both Tim and Duke significantly older? around late teens early 20's?
    Even if "everything is canon" (which probably just means we'll take what we like), Tim will probably be a young hero around 16 years old.

    After all, DC doesn't want Batman to be too old.

  10. #205
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Duke is supposed to be a year younger than Tim if not the same age considering the last stated age for Tim as 17 (IIRC) which was around the Gotham Knights era of Detective, which is not too long after We are Robin where Duke was revealed to be 16. that's not taking into account the passage of time in the DC universes like Duke's 1+ year of training and the time jump during the year of the Villain. If everything becomes canon again, wouldn't that push up the timeline, even more, making both Tim and Duke significantly older? around late teens early 20's?
    Yeah, pretty much

    Tim is already 17 when Dick and Damian became Batman and Robin

    Does the Year of The Villain really need to take a year? ^^ What happened there?

    Usually, in Everything Is Canon, events that don't need to take a year will be scrunched up together with other events. I can't discount Duke's training year though.

  11. #206
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, pretty much

    Tim is already 17 when Dick and Damian became Batman and Robin

    Does the Year of The Villain really need to take a year? ^^ What happened there?

    Usually, in Everything Is Canon, events that don't need to take a year will be scrunched up together with other events. I can't discount Duke's training year though.
    year of the villain is weird considering Snyder's run ends on a universal reset, but we know that Year of the Villain coincides with the League's adventures in the 6th dimension; which while was a short amount of time for them, was at least several months to close to a year in the universe. the 2 resets (Manhattan and Snyder's) kinda put everything in flux, because Doomsday Clock was supposed to take place a year after the events of Metal and Snyder's run.

    so Duke's timeline should look something like:

    Duke (11) meets Batman>>>>five years pass and Endgame happens which leads to Duke (16) leading the WaR Robins >>>>trains with Bruce for a year+>>>>Metal happens and Duke (17) becomes Signal>>>>No Justice happens which leads to Outsiders reforming>>>>Duke joins Outsiders & the events of Justice League/Year of the Villain happen>>>>Duke (18) and everyone are affected by the Manhattan reset During Doomsday Clock

    so his entire career from Robin to now is roughly about a 2 year span. i'm not too familiar the timeline of the old continuity but I imagine Damian and Dick as Batman and Robin would have to have happened towards the tail end of the 5 year gap, no? barring the possibility that they expand the 5 year timeframe, that would make Tim 19, possibly pushing 20, by the time Manhattan resets the Multiverse (I'm not calling it the metaverse because that is stupid).
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  12. #207
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    I've mentioned this before, but I think it is worth mentioning again.

    The Signal's debut series getting truncated from its originally solicited 6 issues down to 3 was due to artist Culley Hamner. As much as I loved his Signal costume design, his character design in general, and how he architected and brought the concept of Gotham by Daylight to life visually, he was also the reason the series suffered the chronic delays it did (getting the first issue pushed back, as well as issue two and three's respective delays). In turn, Hamner's poor scheduling meant that the amount of time Tony Patrick (who needs more love) received to tell his awesome story got cut in half.

    That was all due to Culley Hamner. The delays before each issue may also have factored into not continuing past its 6 then 3 issues. No consistent release means obtaining and maintaining a readerbase and an audience is more difficult, no matter how good the story and artwork is.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    I've mentioned this before, but I think it is worth mentioning again.

    The Signal's debut series getting truncated from its originally solicited 6 issues down to 3 was due to artist Culley Hamner. As much as I loved his Signal costume design, his character design in general, and how he architected and brought the concept of Gotham by Daylight to life visually, he was also the reason the series suffered the chronic delays it did (getting the first issue pushed back, as well as issue two and three's respective delays). In turn, Hamner's poor scheduling meant that the amount of time Tony Patrick (who needs more love) received to tell his awesome story got cut in half.

    That was all due to Culley Hamner. The delays before each issue may also have factored into not continuing past its 6 then 3 issues. No consistent release means obtaining and maintaining a readerbase and an audience is more difficult, no matter how good the story and artwork is.
    How long did it take for Doomsday Clock to finish? Yet still sold despite hold tons of books and movement hostage.

    The trade was not delayed.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    year of the villain is weird considering Snyder's run ends on a universal reset, but we know that Year of the Villain coincides with the League's adventures in the 6th dimension; which while was a short amount of time for them, was at least several months to close to a year in the universe. the 2 resets (Manhattan and Snyder's) kinda put everything in flux, because Doomsday Clock was supposed to take place a year after the events of Metal and Snyder's run.

    so Duke's timeline should look something like:

    Duke (11) meets Batman>>>>five years pass and Endgame happens which leads to Duke (16) leading the WaR Robins >>>>trains with Bruce for a year+>>>>Metal happens and Duke (17) becomes Signal>>>>No Justice happens which leads to Outsiders reforming>>>>Duke joins Outsiders & the events of Justice League/Year of the Villain happen>>>>Duke (18) and everyone are affected by the Manhattan reset During Doomsday Clock

    so his entire career from Robin to now is roughly about a 2 year span. i'm not too familiar the timeline of the old continuity but I imagine Damian and Dick as Batman and Robin would have to have happened towards the tail end of the 5 year gap, no? barring the possibility that they expand the 5 year timeframe, that would make Tim 19, possibly pushing 20, by the time Manhattan resets the Multiverse (I'm not calling it the metaverse because that is stupid).
    I see I see
    In New 52 and the new Didio timeline, Dick's time as Batman and Damian as Robin is considered to last a year. Damian always met Bruce at 10 years old right before he "died" so from that year to Rebirth the total is 3 years, making New 52 Present last 2 years.
    Zero Year happened 6 years ago from New 52 Present. 5 Years Ago in New 52 was Justice League and Dick Robin Origin. Bruce was 25 in Zero Year and 32 during Endgame

    6 years ago - Zero Year - Bruce age 25
    5 years ago - Justice League and Robin Origin - Batman and Robin Eternal flashback - Dick age 16
    3 years ago - Jason Todd origin
    1 year ago - Batman and Robin Reborn - Damian first appeared - Damian age 10
    Present Day Year 1 - The Court of Owls - Death of The Family - Bruce age 31 - Dick age 21
    Present Day Year 2 - Endgame - Superheavy - War of The Robins - Batman and Robin Eternal - Bruce age 32 - Duke age 16 - Tim age 16
    Rebirth Year 1 - Dark Nights Metal - Damian age 13 - Tim age 16 (year start) - Duke age 17
    Rebirth Year 2 - Year of The Villain - Duke age 18

    Since Tim is 17 during Post Crisis Batman and Reborn era, he would be 21 now

  15. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I agree, they botched his debut. Signal's name and power reveal should've played a role in the actual Metal event, not tangentially in the prelude, and put him center stage. he doesn't need to save the day but he should have been a factor. then they should've had his solo come immediately after and at least be 6-12 issues minimum. Snyder should be attached but he doesn't have to be the sole writer, him as a co-writer could've been fine like on his mini but they did the bare minimum and it shows because years later he's still struggling to establish himself. So now people, like Hill, still only see him as a supporting cast newbie that's too new to be competent, and that's not how you sell a character. And I'll always say this, his costume solely affirming Batman does not help with people seeing him as his own hero to be developed beyond his bat connection. if he's supposed to be "something new" then show us.
    I don't mind the bat insignia because he's a legacy character and part of the Batfamily. All of them have it, even guys like Jason.

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